live sound mixing using protools?

[kommando]

greetings fellow toolers!

i've been searching the internet for some time now for information relating to using protools for mixing a band live. any links i find are generally reserved for dj's/electronica or actual live recording.

however; what i want to do is simply use my protools le system for essentially just monitoring the audio and running it to the pa.

the reason for doing this is that all the venues in my locality suck with regard to heavy music and their respective sound guys don't spend the time on it. so i figure i'll have to do it myself - if i have control of the mix then i can just give the digi002 output leads to the soundtech and say 'turn it up'.

i was planning on using my 1.5 ghz g4 powerbook (1.25gig ram) running a presonus digimax into digi002 rack to give me all the inputs for mic'ing a metal band up:- the 8 digimax channels would be reserved for drum mics, then the remaining 8 inputs on my digi 002 would take the guitar amps/bass amp and vocal mic's.

it would also give me the option of using rtas plugins live so i can tweak all the instrument sounds to perfection (primarily using plugins like compression/eq/reverb/ and then a spectrum analyzer on the master fader, maybe maxim depending on the pa power). obviously not going too far overboard as i don't want to max out my cpu.

but i am wary of doing this because i'm not sure how good an idea it is to have 16 channels all primed to record just so that i can hear them and send the output to the monitors (to confirm - no recording will be taking place). is there a better way of doing this?

does anybody have any suggestions/observations/criticisms? or is there specific software for doing this kind of thing already? (not VENUE of course - that's well out of my price range).

i thank you in anticipation of your kind assistance.

[Alex Rodriguez]

It looks like you want to use a 002 as a digital console, but using the software for processing. Then why don't you buy one? You are paying for a system able to record, edit, and mix, just for mixing.
Anyway, you are counting on 8 analog ins, but only 4 of them have mic pres, the other 4 are line input level, so you are still missing 4 mic pres for your setup.
Besides all of this, there's the latency issue. You can work with low latency by having less processing power - that's what we usually do - but then I don't know how far you can get on processing with your setup and still be in low latency mode (you need to tweak HW Buffer size until you find good processing and enough low latency).
There's more to this subject, but I'm dropping some basic things here.
Good luck.
Alex

[kommando]

essentially yes, i want to use my laptop as a digital console. (i do use my protools system for recording too, a lot;- but in this circumstance i want to try it out as a mixer in a live situation.) the reason not to just use a real mixing desk is the flexibility and range of plugins which protools offers.

i would have 12 mic pre's - 8 supplied from the digimax hooked up to the digi002r via lightpipe to the adat port. (i have the presonus digimax 'lt' version if you want to check it out) a very convenient way to expand your digi002 system in one rack space and it works seemlessly with protools.

latency i hope would not be so much of a problem because the computer isn't trying to write all the incoming audio to the hard disk at the same time as processing whatever plugins i'm running. i'll be sure to have an aux channel for any groups like toms and guitars to minimize my plugin use. but yes - as you say h/w buffer size will be very important.

thanks for your input.

[Barnabas]

I've used my 002R to mix and record live bands with great success. It's always been a small group like a duo who both sing and play instruments. Anything like you are describing would require a control surface, which I don't have. I did it once for more then 8 channels, but it was a jazz band and did not use monitors, so it wasn’t too hard. I did find that an external mouse was faster for me then using the track pad.

You really need a set of ears in the audience to control your mix. It appears that you will be mixing from on stage, which means you have to guess at the sound levels.

Are you planning on running a monitor mix (or two) from the aux outputs? If so, it's tricky to make quick changes when necessary.

Mixing 16 channels and setting monitors would require a lengthy sound check. After the house fills up, adjustments will have to be made to the mix, which would require someone to be in the house.

[kommando]

that's a very good point about mixing from on stage. to get around this i could perhaps share mixing duties with someone else whose ears i trust and we would swap over listening to each others mix adjustments out front stage and give directions so to speak.

i will aim to have a template for the gig set up (with my auxes and plugins preassigned from a couple of practice room dry runs), then it would just be a case of hooking everything up and checking levels and eqing to suit the venue, so hopefully soundcheck wouldn't go on too long.

can you elaborate on why you see a control surface as being necessary?

and thank you for your contribution, this thread is proving very useful to me.

[mforehand]

Here's my suggestion, beginning with a question.

Why bring PT into the live domain? Especially if you're not looking to VENUE. You can acheive the same results with a bevy of different small-format, digital consoles. Try this scenario on for size:

Yamaha 01V96 (they're on eBay ALL the time...its where I got mine)
Waves Y96K expansion card (Yamaha Mini-YGDAI slot)

The 01V has comps/gates/parametric EQ/reverbs/delays...everything you'd ever want, even amp simulation. THEN, coupled with the Y96K, you'd have enormous processing capabilities. You can also use your Presonus Digimax LT to give you a grand total of 24 inputs. Shoot, you could even S/PDIF in to give you 2 more digital channels.

Still want to use your laptop for control? Download StudioManager V2. USB to your laptop and mix with your mouse.

All the while, you can still give the house engineer your ST feed. Not to mention, you'll cut down on soundcheck time (if you even get that) because your show is already saved. You just have to tune the house (or your ST feed) to get the desired sound.

AND you still get 4 dedicated OMNI outs...use them for whatever you like. You could even upgrade your presonus gear to the new DigiMax FS, which has 8 ADAT IN and 8 ADAT OUT. That would give you all the routing you would ever need...in the realm in which you're playing.

Don't get me wrong, I AM a loyal Digi customer!!! Its just easier to leave the PT LE systems in the control rooms, and go with an actual stand-alone digital mixer.

-mike

[Andi R]

I´ve done this and it works.
Use only AUX Inputs instead of Audio Tracks , if you don´t want to record.
It will not make a difference if you record or not CPU wise. I record all those gigs - after all, it´s all set up, so why don´t record??
Set the Buffer Size as low as possible!!!!
I doubt you will have fun doing this with your powerbook, my 2,16 GHz MacBook Pro is almost at CPU Limit when using 64 samples and some dynamics...

Whatever you do, TRY IT IN YOUR REHEARSAL SPACE FIRST - and not only once, but several times!!! remember, its a Computer!!! ;-)

good luck,

Cheers,
Andi

[mindnoise]

HI,

I just wondered how long this took until Andi came with the REAL probs on LIVE mixing.
Can I can only add: LISTEN TO HIM!

I`d rather look into a big enough analogue mixing console e.g. Macki 1604 than in something
´shaky´as a computer and not a too strone one BTW, for live mixing. One little Error
and the concert is screwed. Too many possilities of failure and CPU overloads with many plug-ins.

This a total different animal than live recording, since here you don´t have to care about latency,
since lots of plug-ins induce a latency of their own and can totally rip your sound image apart,
on live mixing.

The only practical way my be mixing in low latency mode, but then you can not use any plug-ins.

So I´d say: do yourself a favour and get a analogue mixing console!
This also spares you the problematic of digital clipping, since you seem to go directly from the band into the 002 whatever you have to carefully set the input levels, since hot driving of a digital input in never a good idea.

And finally for mixing live you have to be on the other side of the room facing your band.
This is the only way be sure of levels and frequency gabs etc. Anything else might be futile.
Maybe some closed headphones controlling your master output might help, depending on general volume level around you.

This is just trying to give an idea of what you might be facing.

regs

[kommando]

Thank you all very much, I have a far greater understanding of the pitfalls regarding this concept.

Mike,
"Why bring PT into the live domain?" - to take advantage of the large amount of plugins, but primarily because I already own it; there's no expense. I've done some research into the programs and gear you mention and see the benefits a digital mixer has in this situation so that is definitely looking like the way forward. I will just have to do some saving up.

Andi,
Good call on just using aux's, I was mainly worried that I was more likely to overstep the plugin mark if i attempted actual recording. But if you are pushing the limits of your 2.16ghz macbook pro then it doesn't look promising for me. I would definitely give this as many rehearsal runs as I can. But I suspect one will be enough for me to realise if it's not going to work.

Regs,
i'm not so into the idea of an analogue desk, the adjustability and precision that the digital domain offers suits me better and digital clipping does not overly worry me as i am usually over cautious when it comes to headroom. I have an analogue soundtech 12/8/2 desk which does it's job well but I couldn't see myself using it live, even an updated and bigger version thereof, i need the manipulative capacity of digital technology. Your points on the cpu overloads and drive faliures are duly noted and i guess come with the territory. I have some sound isolation headphones which could help with the mixing - but indeed you are right about needing to be front of house to see the bigger picture as it were.

Thanks again guys, I think I understand the deal with this now. Buy yourselves a beer.

[Andi R]

HI,

I just wondered how long this took until Andi came with the REAL probs on LIVE mixing.
Can I can only add: LISTEN TO HIM!

err, do you know me???