Now that I am back on Mac, Carbon a real option

[TNM]

Carbon could be my one and only chance at having a reasonably priced, completely PT integrated system where I never have to leave the PT mixer for all my duties, unlike the way UAD works, and I could still keep my UA satellites to use UA DSP plugins in the mix.
Best of all worlds.

This is something I am exploring, not sure yet.

My main questions:

1) Is the max input of Carbon still 24 analog ins? i.e. 8 on board plus 16 Adat?

2) I presume it would "just work" with a Mac studio current model? I have never used an Ethernet based audio interface before, ever, so this is an entirely new area for me.

3) Are the core audio drivers acceptable so I could still use it as a standard interface in Logic and Ableton? And if so, does anyone know what the native latency, i.e. not DSP mixer but going through native mixer of DAW is?

4) Is there any kind of standalone software mixer like Apollo, so it can be used THAT way with other DAWs, or is it entirely, 100% pro tools mixer integrated only.

Would be great to know all this stuff, but if the answer to question 1 is a yes, it's an 100% dealbreaker anyway, as I need *minimum* 32 A/D, and really I prefer 48-55.

I see two ethernet ports on the back of the Carbon, so wouldn't it just need an appropriate driver to be able to chain units via that and have say 2 or 3 of them? i.e. is the ability there if Avid want to implement it?

Cheers!

PS HDX not an option, I have checked into it multiple times and I can't swallow 19K for one card and an MTRX studio. I'll need more than that as that's just to get started.

I like the idea of 2 Carbons and 3 Adat expanders (which I already have 3 of, Focusrite octopre dynamic) but for some reason, it seems Carbon is still limited to one main interface, which is why I am writing here, as I find it hard to believe. The only thing that makes sense to me is Avid doing it on purpose to force people who need more ins to HDX, but I don't think they realise they also lose many customers like myself who refuse to pay so much for HDX. Come on, the price is just ludicrous and they know it and we know it.

the 8 on board DSP is plenty for monitoring purposes, and then I'd just use native aax and UAD plus UAD dsp in mix phase. Easy. I just need enough DSP to 100% reliably monitor a large amount of ins at low latency with EQ and compression and a couple verbs and a delay.

Anyway 2 Carbons is 16 ins and 3 Adats is 24, 40 ins is a really good start for me, and I can make that 48 at any time with another cheap Adat. But one Carbon, I'll max it out and have zero room to grow.

PPS My Mac Studio is still a few days away, sent back the base model that convinced me to go back to Mac just for DAW purposes and keep my PC for net/gaming/streaming etc, but mostly AAA gaming with ray tracing.
But I have ordered the M2 Ultra with 64GB ram and 2TB SSD. I wanted 128GB/4TB but it was just under 10K AUD so I decided to be sensible this time.
Even the 12 core M2 Max Mac Studio was the surprise of my music making life, how good it was.

[BScout]

(1) Yes, it is limited
(2) No. Apple macOS Sonoma is currently having issues. For that matter, any AVB device will always be at the whim/support of whether Apple breaks things with macOS updates. Currently they have.

1 HDX card can support 64 channels in and out. They are going cheaply now on the used market. As are Avid HD IO (which work perfectly well and are pretty great converters.) AUS$19k = US$12.6k. You can get an HDX card + MTRX Studio on the used market for about US$5.5k today ($3.5k for MTRX Studio and $2k for HDX card.) That's already more than double the amount of AD and DA of a Carbon. And then you can chain an HD IO for another 16in/16out. (you could chain 2 if you don't plan to use the MTRX Studio Dante channels and limit it to 32in/out total channels. One digilink cable goes to the MTRX Studio, one goes to the first HD IO and the expansion on the HD IO goes to the second HD IO).

[BScout]

Originally Posted by TNM

Anyway 2 Carbons is 16 ins and 3 Adats is 24, 40 ins is a really good start for me, and I can make that 48 at any time with another cheap Adat. But one Carbon, I'll max it out and have zero room to grow.

Nope. If you use 2 Carbons together, the second Carbon then acts like a Carbon Pre. The ADATs only work on the first Carbon (if the others are chained via AVB). The ADATs on the second Carbon (or Carbon Pre) are non-operational in this mode.
Ignoring the 1 weird input for TB, you can get a max of 40 input channels = 8ADC Carbon1 + 8ADC Carbon2 (or Carbons Pre1) + 8ADC Carbon3 (or Carbon Pre2) + 16 ADAT channels on the Carbon1 if at 44.1/48k
This is max. Can't go beyond that.

[TNM]

Ok thanks, so it sounds like it's being purposely limited, as AVB by its very nature is supposed to be chain able. Very weird.

I will look at a S/H HDX but I have never found one every time I have looked over the last few years, and I can't buy a S/H one with 24 interest free payments.

Interesting re Sonoma and AVB issue, and I'd have no choice, my new mac will come with the latest Sonoma out of the box, which even PT itself isn't "qualified" for yet (but I know it works fine because I used it up until I packed it up for return last night on the 12 core mac studio, with UAD, and PT and thunderbolt interface worked just fine).

Re HDX, would also need a thunderbolt PCIE expander, a Mac pro is a ridiculous price here for the same power as mac studio.. The entire cost seems to be to have some pcie slots as the computer is the same processor. Crazy how expensive they are.

I still can not understand why they didn't make Carbon thunderbolt with daisy chain like UAD.. that would have been such a contender.

Maybe Avid should hire me for their business decisions. How I would have done it.

Dual AVB AND thunderbolt audio interface, with Win compatibility via thunderbolt 3.
Dual TB ports for daisy chain.
Good low latency core audio and ASIO driver.
100% PT integration as it is now, but for all other DAWS, an Apollo Console like Mixer DSP App so it could be used for low latency monitoring via DSP for ANY DAW, just like UAD.

That way, it would have been SO much more desirable to a way bigger target customer base. I still don't understand why they have made it a single dead end mac only product with no multi unit expansion.

Even 1000$ interfaces have Adat expansion, that's not a big deal. Heck, unless using PT and ONLY PT and nothing else, ever, a MOTU 828 makes a lot more sense at a quarter of the price with the current way Carbon is limited. A MOTU 828 Gen 5 can be aggregated with two interfaces which won't work with Carbon cause of the PT specific integration.

Wouldn't just ONE HDX card limit me cause of the "voices" situation that doesn't plague native only Avid solutions (nor carbon from what I understand)??

Also, I read HDX native driver has high latency? I DO need to use other DAWs, not just PT.

All roads seem to lead back to just sticking with UAD, it works, and stop this fruitless search for working in one software mixer only. The irony is that this is entirely due to poor decisions by Avid, as I have been looking for alternatives since 2018.

[Darryl Ramm]

Pro Tools 2024.3 *is* qualified for Sonoma. Its the Carbon because of macOS AVB support that is having problems with Sonoma.

The proprietary "AVB" on Carbon was such a weird choice. It boggles the mind.

MTRX Studio Thunderbolt is pretty darn appealing to me.

[BScout]

Originally Posted by TNM

Re HDX, would also need a thunderbolt PCIE expander,

Yes and I'd suggest the Sonnet Echo III (DuoModo) that has 3 slots. The 1 slot ones with HDX cards are having problems with macOS. (don't know why but they do use a different controller.)

Originally Posted by TNM

Wouldn't just ONE HDX card limit me cause of the "voices" situation that doesn't plague native only Avid solutions (nor carbon from what I understand)??

No. In hybrid mode, HDX cards run just like the Carbon. Full 2048 voices plus you can switch channels to DSP mode. However, unlike Carbon, HDX cards can also run the "hybrid" type DSP/native plugins. Including some of Avid's which won't run on the Carbon as DSP. Also, you get the option of a full DSP mix engine (in Classic mode, though you will cut the voices to 256 when in that mode with one card -- but you can switch back and forth as needed to Hybrid.)

Originally Posted by TNM

Also, I read HDX native driver has high latency? I DO need to use other DAWs, not just PT.

I haven't checked that. Higher than pure DSP as a CoreAudio interface, sure. That's expected. Is that particularly bad compared to other options, I don't know as I haven't checked the numbers. I use RME interfaces for anything not Pro Tools (though the RME also feeds my MTRX so it ends up using the same monitoring/converters.)

And Darryl addressed Sonoma compatibility. 2024.3 is Sonoma qualified. It's just the Carbon isn't because of macOS issues.

[dominicperry]

Originally Posted by TNM

Carbon could be my one and only chance at having a reasonably priced, completely PT integrated system where I never have to leave the PT mixer for all my duties, unlike the way UAD works, and I could still keep my UA satellites to use UA DSP plugins in the mix.
Best of all worlds.

This is something I am exploring, not sure yet.

My main questions:

1) Is the max input of Carbon still 24 analog ins? i.e. 8 on board plus 16 Adat?

2) I presume it would "just work" with a Mac studio current model? I have never used an Ethernet based audio interface before, ever, so this is an entirely new area for me.

3) Are the core audio drivers acceptable so I could still use it as a standard interface in Logic and Ableton? And if so, does anyone know what the native latency, i.e. not DSP mixer but going through native mixer of DAW is?

4) Is there any kind of standalone software mixer like Apollo, so it can be used THAT way with other DAWs, or is it entirely, 100% pro tools mixer integrated only.

Would be great to know all this stuff, but if the answer to question 1 is a yes, it's an 100% dealbreaker anyway, as I need *minimum* 32 A/D, and really I prefer 48-55.

I see two ethernet ports on the back of the Carbon, so wouldn't it just need an appropriate driver to be able to chain units via that and have say 2 or 3 of them? i.e. is the ability there if Avid want to implement it?

Cheers!

PS HDX not an option, I have checked into it multiple times and I can't swallow 19K for one card and an MTRX studio. I'll need more than that as that's just to get started.

I like the idea of 2 Carbons and 3 Adat expanders (which I already have 3 of, Focusrite octopre dynamic) but for some reason, it seems Carbon is still limited to one main interface, which is why I am writing here, as I find it hard to believe. The only thing that makes sense to me is Avid doing it on purpose to force people who need more ins to HDX, but I don't think they realise they also lose many customers like myself who refuse to pay so much for HDX. Come on, the price is just ludicrous and they know it and we know it.

the 8 on board DSP is plenty for monitoring purposes, and then I'd just use native aax and UAD plus UAD dsp in mix phase. Easy. I just need enough DSP to 100% reliably monitor a large amount of ins at low latency with EQ and compression and a couple verbs and a delay.

Anyway 2 Carbons is 16 ins and 3 Adats is 24, 40 ins is a really good start for me, and I can make that 48 at any time with another cheap Adat. But one Carbon, I'll max it out and have zero room to grow.

PPS My Mac Studio is still a few days away, sent back the base model that convinced me to go back to Mac just for DAW purposes and keep my PC for net/gaming/streaming etc, but mostly AAA gaming with ray tracing.
But I have ordered the M2 Ultra with 64GB ram and 2TB SSD. I wanted 128GB/4TB but it was just under 10K AUD so I decided to be sensible this time.
Even the 12 core M2 Max Mac Studio was the surprise of my music making life, how good it was.

Things are as they are. Don't expect any of it to change. Various things with Carbon have been intimated or suggested or seem like they should be possible, but there's been very little product development since it was launched, so take it as it is.

1. 8 analog ins. 16 ADAT ins @ 44.1/48k. That's it for one box. (I'm sure you didn't mean 24 analog ins).
2. No, it won't "just work".
a. You need to make sure you have a dedicated AVB-compatible Ethernet port which you aren't using for anything else. So, connection to the internet needs to be another port, or WiFi, or a TB/Ethernet adapter. Same goes for control surfaces - you need a different port to the one you are using for Carbon. The only thing you can daisy chain on the Carbon Ethernet port is one or two Carbon Pres (or Carbons configured as Carbon Pres)..
b. You need to pick your OS carefully and that doesn't include Sonoma at the moment.
c. You need to configure AVB in Audio Midi Settings or use Carbon Central. The latter is mandatory if you have more than one Carbon / Carbon Pre.
3. Lots of people ask about this, but I'm not sure if anyone is doing it. Latency is about 3.5ms/3.5ms so round trip of 7ms. No official figures published and I think it has improved since Carbon launched, but no word from Avid as to what (if anything) has changed. I suspect that the reason no one does it is related to the next answer.
4. No. No standalone mixer, no separate control, it's a pain if you want to use anything other than Pro Tools. Even changing sample rate is difficult. Carbon Central only allows you to configure the number of Carbons you are using and upgrade the firmware (which PT itself also does when necessary), so that's no help. Whilst you can manage input and output gain from the physical controls, there are only rows of LEDs to help you guess the level - no numbers to tell you what you are set at.

If you add two Carbon Pres to a Carbon, you get 24 analog ins (8+8+8) and 16 ADAT @ 44.1/48 (from the Carbon). The ADATs on the Carbon Pres are not usuable if you are using the analog ins. So, a total of 40 input channels @ 44.1/48 or 32 input channels @ 96k (and you'll need A/D hanging off those ADAT inputs of course). You will only get four headphone outs.
You can use a Carbon as a Carbon Pre, but if you do so, you don't get extra DSP, headphone outs or anything else - in this mode, they act EXACTLY like a Carbon Pre.

Anyway 2 Carbons is 16 ins and 3 Adats is 24, 40 ins is a really good start for me, and I can make that 48 at any time with another cheap Adat. But one Carbon, I'll max it out and have zero room to grow.

. No, you don't get 3 ADATs under any circumstances.

The onboard DSP is enough for some reasonably complex monitoring paths for a few channels. I wouldn't want to use it for giving 20 people their own individual headphone mixes. I think you could do it with NO plugins, but even a single Avid channel strip for each output would be pushing it. Sorry, I have my Carbon in storage, I can't test anything for you - from memory, I can max out the DSP with a Metric Halo channel strip and an Arouser (Distressor) on 8 channels (at 96k). Heavy plugs, so a single lighter strip on 20 channels might be possible, especially at lower sample rates.

I sold my Apollo interface and kept my Octo - a lot of UA stuff runs Native now anyway. I don't monitor through UA plugs. I bought the Carbon so I can punch in one or a few channels at any point in a mix, with no concerns. The latency is better than anything else I've used, and that's what I like (and why I run at 96k). Only Matt Hepworth matches my obsession with low latency monitoring paths.

Happy to add more clarifications.

Dominic

[K Roche]

Just Some general thoughts
Now I have no clue why Avid made Carbon an AVB ethernet connection Seems to me if they would have gone with TB3 a lot of work arounds and adaptors could have been eliminated Not to mention PC usable

And the other general observation I am speculating that the limitations are based in Avid specifically not wanting to have Carbon be a lower cost replacement to HDX. So the target market was always either musicians recording themselves or fairly small project studios that don't need a lot of analog ins and only a limited number HW peripherals units
That said I know one project studio owner that uses only one Carbon and an ADAT unit and a patch bay for 8-10 HW peripherals with no complaints And for me recording only myself, Carbon is great solution

[eightamrock]

Originally Posted by K Roche

That said I know one project studio owner that uses only one Carbon and an ADAT unit and a patch bay for 8-10 HW peripherals with no complaints And for me recording only myself, Carbon is great solution

I have a small home studio where I work with bands. Currently do it as a side gig, but building a larger 600sqft facility in my backyard to level up my game. I use 1 carbon and a pulse 16. I have 8 hardware preamps and 12 pieces of random outboard gear using a patchbay that is normalized to the gear I use most often. I have yet to use all 24 i/o available to me during tracking or mixdown. I do want to add a carbon pre to my system as the way I track and work with bands makes full automated recall very attractive. Will probably do so once my new facility is done.