Re-learning to mix ITB?

[buckaroo]

Following on from the thread earlier, with the "Mixing in PT doesn't sound good"
I just wanted to get any advice on mixing ITB..

I know PT does sound good and have heard countless records, sfx, films, etc that all must mix ITB with Protools so I haven't got a problem with that..

I come from an Analog Soundcraft Ghost desk and DAT and have progressed from early DAW on PC to now using Logic / PT HD2 on a Mac Pro with a stack of AU's FX and Ableton/Logic for any composing..

My problem is the mixing ITB, I think its true that you need to re-learn everything when coming from a console

As i start to build up a track most things start clipping as i add more tracks to the master fader which i suppose is obvious.. but does anyone have any tips for mixing and how the professionals mix ITB?

I have heard that the biggest mistake is keeping all the channel faders quite high around 0db and bringing down the Master - so you end up with a normal looking mix but your master is like -25db right at the bottom!

Should this be the other way around? master at 0db and faders brought down?

Any help on this would be great as ive never felt that confident mixing ITB due to how easy it is to overload. But I hear some fantastic loud pop records ie: Britney, Rhianna etc that all seemed to be mixed this way and obviously no clipping?

If there are any ITB mixing tutorials online or references that would be great, as i do think i need to change from the outboard mixing style to get to grips with this..

[crizdee]

Originally Posted by buckaroo

Should this be the other way around? master at 0db and faders brought down?

Never adjust the master fader! always leave it at -0dbfs

Use a mix bus (an aux channel) and route all your tracks to the mix bus then route the mix bus to the master. don't place any plugins on the master except metering plugins and its a good idea to have a meter plug open whilst mixing and keep an eye on the levels!! as a guide start your drum track/ or have your drum track with a level of about -18dbfs then you'll have plenty of headroom left to ad other parts on top.

Its alien at first to start a mix at such a low level but this is a major factor.

After this it becomes very subjective and personal. some like to ad plugins for flavor and some don't feel the need and just mix till they like the sound. I do have a plugin on the mix bus for flavor and its the Waves V-Comp, it is set to just ad some color and doesn't compress unless i get over a certain level which is quite high about -2dbfs, but i rarely get near that level when mixing!!

here's a pic of the V-comp setting...
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...IXBUSTONER.jpg

here's a pic of the mix bus! you'll notice the level is not slamming the master! and the metering plugin from Massey tools on the master...
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...IXBUSMETER.jpg



chris

[buckaroo]

Thanks for this - just out of interest what style of music are you mastering there?

I was thinking of full in your face pop which is limited hard, do these producers still mix to start with at very low levels?

Also i learnt something new there, didnt know you could have the master fader on its side big and fat like that!

[blackbirdstudio]

Good thread...
I completely agree that it is a different skill mixing itb, than it is on a board. Obviously alot of similarities, but different appoach for sure. I love the itb thing now. The total recall of a mix at such ease is invaluable. One click... Sweet....

The whole board vs itb argument is getting less and less valid as time passes. With the current plugs available, you can colour pro tools however you want. Pretty cool i reckon. There is a sonic difference, but its not better or worse to me, just different. Saying that, havent mixed on a board for over a year now. Nice Neotech board... Sweet.

The main thing for me is to not crowd the headroom on the mix bus too much. It can handle alot, but it sounds more restricted after a certain point. Nothing to worry about, you'll know when ya hit that point. Ya drums are usually the first to suffer...

Still, its more about what goes in that counts...

Cheers
Dave

[DJRECORDS]

Originally Posted by buckaroo

Thanks for this - just out of interest what style of music are you mastering there?

I was thinking of full in your face pop which is limited hard, do these producers still mix to start with at very low levels?

Also i learnt something new there, didnt know you could have the master fader on its side big and fat like that!

Thats a metering plugin thats placed parallel across the screen! the Massey one? looks nice and big and easy to use, i'll check that out.

Mixing is one thing and mastering is another.

Jez

[crizdee]

Originally Posted by buckaroo

Thanks for this - just out of interest what style of music are you mastering there?

I was thinking of full in your face pop which is limited hard, do these producers still mix to start with at very low levels?

Also i learnt something new there, didnt know you could have the master fader on its side big and fat like that!

Hi,

Thats a mix session on a house tune. only thing i might ad at the mixing stage is some compression, but not very much. i will place a limiter on for reference only and when bouncing down to take a listen etc, but i'll remove the limiter when i do the final bounce. and of course i'll always do the mastering in a new session with just the stereo mix.

Starting a mix at low level has nothing to do with the final mastered product being loud and in your face as you put it. that is very much a combination of good mixing and good mastering. A good mix will always relate into a good master, so getting the mix right at the beginning is essential. i would go as far as to say that a mix that isn't slamming the mixbus will always make a better master and leaving the mastering engineer the dynamics and headroom to work with will really help to get a better end product. don't try to mix and master at the same time.


As mentioned thats the Massey tools meter thats on the screen! what's good about it is you can modify it and make it almost any size and set the scaling for personal taste.

Chris

[WernerF]

I personally prefer to mix with some mastering going on on the mix buss. That is one one of the things that makes mixing on an SSL great too. The master buss compressor is awesome and, not to mention, legendary. I have never mixed on one without it engaged. If you don't do this the mastering engineer has much more of an ability to change the relative levels of your mix. If he slams it a bit the center information, like the snare for instance, will get noticeably quieter and the outside info, guitars for one, will get louder. It can happen with the best mastering guys. It's hard to find someone that you can trust. The guys, and sometimes girl (Emily Lazar) that I work with regularely like the fact that the mix is in a place where they don't have to do much more than possibly tighten up the low end and give it a little volume boost.

On attended sessions, sometimes we experiment a little more with frequencies, but not with relative levels.

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by WernerF

I personally prefer to mix with some mastering going on on the mix buss. That is one one of the things that makes mixing on an SSL great too. The master buss compressor is awesome and, not to mention, legendary.

I'm sorry, but having used the SSL G series bus compressor a lot, it is in no way, shape or form anything close to "mastering". Putting a compressor across the mix bus is not "mastering" by any stretch of the imagination. That's like saying building a skyscraper is just a couple metal beams bolted together....

[lbl]

[QUOTE=WernerF;1441459]I personally prefer to mix with some mastering going on on the mix buss. That is one one of the things that makes mixing on an SSL great too.

It is "always" better to be good at mixing and leave the mastering to the ME's. We MEs receive too many records with bogged attempts at mastering. Learn to mix properly and then..........

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by buckaroo

Thanks for this - just out of interest what style of music are you mastering there?

I was thinking of full in your face pop which is limited hard, do these producers still mix to start with at very low levels?

Also i learnt something new there, didnt know you could have the master fader on its side big and fat like that!

Here's a few examples I've done (recorded/mixed/produced). All of these were mastered by Bob Vosgien at Capitol Mastering, except for the first two which were mastered by Gavin Lurssen at Lurssen Mastering. These were done following my "counter intuitive and mechanical" method of making it sound good and getting the correct levels (i.e. lower levels) on the way in, instead of trying to fix/adjust everything in the mix... The mixes I deliver to mastering are not loud, or slammed, or already somewhat mastered, etc... They have an average level that sits around halfway up the Protools meter on the master with peaks jumping up above that. On a few of them I had a compressor across the stereo mix for color, not volume. Judge for yourself.

The Deep (Electronic Rock)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506660

If You Want Me (Power pop)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506665

Ballbuster (Power Pop/punk)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=502736

SK-8 (Power Pop/punk)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=502737

Lonely Years (Power Pop Ballad)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=502738

All Torn Up (Power Rock Anthem)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506919

Pile On (Pop Metal)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506909

Ghost Rider (Heavy Alternative Rock)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506912

Crawling (Heavy Alternative Rock)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506911

Will You Save Me (Power Pop)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=505072

Heartthrob (Teen Pop)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=505078