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  #1  
Old 09-08-2004, 03:45 PM
Djtricky Djtricky is offline
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Default We\'re gonna bounce !

It's happening...

We waited, we prayed, we hoped and we pleaded...but our cries were not heard. Our prayers were not answered. Our voices have fallen upon deaf ears !

So...without access to a 'faster-than-realtime bounce to disk' feature in Pro Tools...we have decided to abandon the software.

And in doing so, abandon a platform.


Yes it is true, we are tossing aside 20 Pro Tools systems and Macs, in favor of 20 Dell PC's and 20 copies of Adobe Audition & Steinberg's Wavelab software !

It is a sad, sad day for Clear Channel's Premiere Radio Networks - pioneers of the Pro Tools fiber channel SAN. We were on the bleeding edge just a few short years ago...gathering all of the right players...saving our pennies from our piggy banks...coming together for a common goal - A unique fiber channel storage array based on EMC technology, Avid Digidesign Pro Tools software, and Apple G4 Mac computers. It seems that Digidesign has decided that radio is the red-headed step child of the entertainment industry and we are of little concern. We have been given a "time out", sent to our rooms without supper, smacked on the nose with a rolled up MacWorld periodical.

Yet we go forth unto this new venture with a sense of gratitude and anticipation. Gratitude for the learning experience, the lessons in TDM, DAE & RTAS. Anticipation - for we now will be able to complete our 3 hour shows in...3 hours instead of 6. We can meet incredible deadlines and increase our productivity by 50%, without sacrificing quality and man-hours.

I will miss the little hand icon that would pop up on occassion as Pro Tools would chug through it's processing to make a :32 second commercial fit into a :30 second time window. I honestly believed that the little hand was waiving to me. Little did I know that it was waving goodbye ! Numbers like -9072, and -9034 and phrases like "drive too slow or fragmented" will be distant memories echoed in our production minds.

We will keep our little fiber channel SAN, bourne of our own sweat and tears and affectionately known as "Barney". We have opted to bed with one of the ugly software step-sisters. For we don't need the "princess-primadonna" and all of her bells & whistles if she can't provide what has become a fundamental, basic need...to be loved and respected...but at a faster than real time pace !

Eric Caver
Senior Director of Programming Operations
Premiere Radio Networks
A division of Clear Channel Communications
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  #2  
Old 09-08-2004, 04:25 PM
snaggle snaggle is offline
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Default Re: We\'re gonna bounce !

Wow!

Hope that works out well for you. I have Audition, Acid etc. on a Dell in my studio so I can open client's sessions and export things correctly so I can line them up in sync in Pro Tools(Mac). Nobody comes near me when I'm doing it because no one likes a grump.

Hope it's what you hope it to be.

All the best...

p.s. How much for the 20 Pro Tools systems and Macs?
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2004, 04:29 PM
Dutchmuzik Dutchmuzik is offline
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Default Re: We\'re gonna bounce !

Quote:
in favor of 20 Dell PC's and 20 copies of Adobe Audition & Steinberg's Wavelab software !

I guess instead of waiting on the bounce, you'll be waiting in the tech support que. Enjoy
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  #4  
Old 09-08-2004, 05:24 PM
Djtricky Djtricky is offline
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Default Re: We\'re gonna bounce !

Thanks for the good luck wishes!

As far as support goes, I beta test for Steinberg, and Clear Channel has a solid relationship with Adobe so I'm not concerned. I had a simple question about audio i/o requirements a week ago and was bumped immediately to the head of Adobe support - not bad !!

Regarding the used PT equipment: once we are weened from them, if they aren't to be repurposed somewhere else or sacrificed to a volcano, I will post an ad.

All kidding aside, I love the power and flexibility of Pro Tools. A piece of software can't be all things to all people, but when practically EVERY other software has a similar feature...Digi simply missed the mark on removing the 'non-realtime bounce' feature. Even as a secondary option, bypassing TDM...or on host based RTAS systems - this would've been a valuable feature. I've spoken to several Digi engineers & tech personnel over the years and they can't give a reasonable answer as to why this can't be done (in one form or another).

Moving on...

Sincerely,

Eric
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  #5  
Old 09-08-2004, 05:43 PM
PTUser NYC PTUser NYC is offline
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Default What about...

You could do your show as 6 x half hour "reels", and bounce (record to other tracks) them simultaneously? Then drag the "reels" to one track, one after the other, and use consolidate to put them into one file - much faster than real time. That would save time too?

If no one has even thought of this except for me, might you want to bring me in as a consultant? Most problems can be solved creatively if you don't take "no" for an answer.
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  #6  
Old 09-08-2004, 06:29 PM
KingFish KingFish is offline
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Default Re: What about...

Quote:
You could do your show as 6 x half hour "reels", and bounce (record to other tracks) them simultaneously? Then drag the "reels" to one track, one after the other, and use consolidate to put them into one file - much faster than real time. That would save time too?

If no one has even thought of this except for me, might you want to bring me in as a consultant? Most problems can be solved creatively if you don't take "no" for an answer.
Absolutely, I've done this several times, even bussed different mixes, to different rec enabled tracks, ie... jingles full, jingles just music no dialog, jingles just dialog.... all in 1 pass.

As far as music production goes, I never really understood the philosophy of not wanting to hear your final work, in real time, as it goes down. (this is a personal thing, not a dig, or a flame)

It's the moment when all decisions become final, when bouncing to disk, I've usually gotten out of the room for a few minutss, come back, initiate the bounce to disk process, and really listen to my final work.

More times then not, I'll stop it, make a subtle change, and re-start the process.

maybe I'm a little "Old School" but we've always listened to out mixes, going to 1/4 inch 2 track, or dat tape in the past.

I doubt I'd ever use a "faster then real time BTD" to send my final work out the door.

That's just me, and how I do my work, perhaps I'm but a needle in a haystack.
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David

- MacPro 6,1 Intel Xeon E5 2.7 GHz 12-Core 128 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
- HDX II Sonnet xMacPro Server
- 16x16 HD i/o x 6
- PT 2018.10
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- ProTools Dock / PT Control
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  #7  
Old 09-08-2004, 06:41 PM
Djtricky Djtricky is offline
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Default Re: What about...

Not 'exactly' sure what you mean by 6 x half hour reels...but I don't think it solves our dilemma time-wise. It's still a realtime bounce function. I understand the consolidation feature and we have used it, but it only works for contiguous audio.

I need to have my producers record, edit and mix 8-12 tracks of audio (usually 20 min segments at a time to total 2 or 3 hours of programming per show ) to stereo masters (wav and MP2 master files)with track FX. These stereo masters are then burned to a CD or delivered via starguide or Prophet electronic delivery systems. The beauty of Wavelab is that I can not only record, assemble, edit, mix and apply FX in the Montage (edl) section - but I can burn a red book CD directly from that edl without rendering! Or, if I decide to render, I can render an hour long, 8 track edl with fx on every track (or segment) in less than 5 minutes (about 8 minutes with Audition 16bit / 44.1). With the rapid turn around of radio production, this is essential. We can produce programming that is topical and deliver same day. I just don't think that Digi "gets it". Clear Channel owns 1,500 + radio stations, and I would say that at least half of them have owned PT in one form or another and have (or begun to) abandon it for Audition or something similar. The nature of radio production is changing and Digi hasn't bothered to take notice. For music production, I love Pro Tools...it IS the standard - but for the radio/broadcast industry, it falls short.

Cheers,

Eric
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  #8  
Old 09-08-2004, 06:51 PM
PTUser NYC PTUser NYC is offline
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Default Re: What about...

Quote:
I need to have my producers record, edit and mix 8-12 tracks of audio (usually 20 min segments at a time to total 2 or 3 hours of programming per show ) to stereo masters (wav and MP2 master files)
I'm suggesting that you could set up each 20 minute "reel" on its own set of 8 - 12 tracks (48 to 72 tracks in your session) and assign each "reel" (each set of 8-12) to a different stereo bus. You could then create 6 stereo tracks, each with its input set to a different stereo bus. If you recorded in real time to those 6 tracks, in 20 minutes, you'd have rendered the whole show.

Rather than bouncing each 20 minute segment in real time, you could record them all at the same time in parallel. The entire operation would be as long as your longest "reel", in this case approximately 20 minutes.

I hope this helps!

Got a job for me?
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  #9  
Old 09-08-2004, 06:52 PM
Djtricky Djtricky is offline
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Default Re: What about...

I agree Kingfish, Your final product must to be "Quality Checked" before leaving the door. It may be old school, but it is definitely good business sense. We have a department that is dedicated to exactly that. They listen to the final mixed master CD or file, while our producers continue to work on other projects. By the time they finish QC'ing the product, we can have other product ready for delivery and QC (assembly line type production). If there was a problem with the final product, I don't want to have to wait another 20 minutes or 1 hour for the fixed file to render, risking missing a shipping or air deadline - which can amount to thousands of dollars easily. Besides, much of our material are short mini-feature type products and there is a certain amount of "trust" that goes into production with a non-real time BTD. It would just be nice to have the option, that's all I'm saying, especially for the investment that we make into Digi products.

Sincerely,

Eric
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  #10  
Old 09-08-2004, 07:03 PM
surroundguy surroundguy is offline
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Default Re: What about...

Well, fast bouncing is of no use to those of us with TDM or outboard gear, so personally it's not a big issue for me. In fact I'd rather Digi keep their focus on features for music and post instead of features specific to the radio market.

I played with Adobe Audition recently and it didn't really grab me. It looked like Cool Edit Pro with a facelift, which is exactly what it is. If my customers were willing to let someone use Cool Edit Pro on their projects, I'd be out of a job. I can see on a simple radio mix Audition might work fine, but then so would plenty of other native DAW's.

I'll resist commenting on Clear Channel...Howard Stern does it better than me anyway
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