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  #11  
Old 06-09-2016, 12:58 PM
bobbyguelz bobbyguelz is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 100
Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

200% agree on the S3 knobs and artist series as well. For most situations... Unusable. Hence why we always flip parameters down to the faders, otherwise we're mired in frustration. It's like driving a sports car where you feel the road and driving a minivan resulting in a massively detached wheel and road experience that you can't rely on to make the subtle adjustments that are so crucial in our fields.

It all takes time and effort but again another perfect "not flashy" yet monumental improvement that would add to the usability of the controllers.

Thanks for listening Kyle! Hopefully from what you've seen we all care about the subtle tweaks that for us improve the usability of our controllers than one big flashy feature surrounded by bugs or non intuitive ways of working the devices in music or post.

Thanks again!
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  #12  
Old 07-20-2016, 01:03 PM
Anthony_Anz Anthony_Anz is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2016
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Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

My Dock is coming this afternoon. This is disappointing to read. I was hoping the knobs would be much better than my artist mix! those things are useless! better knob sensitivity was one of the things I was looking fwd too. I'll test it out tonight and report my thoughts.
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  #13  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:07 PM
robertg robertg is offline
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Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

The single biggest improvement request ever for years and years, and we still don't have it.

Your knobs suck. Fix them, please, finally.
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2016, 11:52 AM
Anthony_Anz Anthony_Anz is offline
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Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

Ok, so my dock came last night. my report is as follows.. I agree with robertg. Please, for the love of whatever deity you believe in, FIX THE KNOBS! This is really disappointing. $1200 for a brand NEW control surface only to have the same OLD problems. AVID, if you're listening.. STOP, just STOP developing whatever your newest invention/gadget/Pro Tools enhancement it is you're working on and FIX this nagging problem.

Don't get me wrong. I seriously WANT to love this thing. I thought this was going to finally work better than the Artist Mix knobs. After all "they were taken from the S3" ohhhhhhhhhhhhh..... ahhhhh..... Well, if the S3 knobs work like this too than count me out as a future potential customer.

I'm honestly confused about this knob situation. For instance, with the PT Control App if you try and control say, an EQ plugin, with your finger on the iPad the adjustments are smooth and seamless but if you use the control knobs on the dock the settings jump all over the place. Anything more than the slightest movement could make a setting jump by 10db! I just don't understand how the wireless iPad app can be so smooth while the hardwired hardware is inconsistent. It makes no sense. Also, give us the option for linear response. Apparently that's nothing new.

Overall, I'm undecided on the dock as a whole. I love certain features of it and still disappointed in others. This control surface has the potential to be AMAZING if only AVID would pay attention to the details. I have a few days to decide if those things bother me enough to send it back.

The Dock is a perfect chance for AVID to persuade users to jump to an S3 from their Artist Mixes.. DON'T SCREW IT UP AVID. -- fix this!
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  #15  
Old 07-21-2016, 02:10 PM
Kyle Splittgerber's Avatar
Kyle Splittgerber Kyle Splittgerber is offline
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Location: CA
Posts: 313
Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Anz View Post
Ok, so my dock came last night. my report is as follows.. I agree with robertg. Please, for the love of whatever deity you believe in, FIX THE KNOBS! This is really disappointing. $1200 for a brand NEW control surface only to have the same OLD problems. AVID, if you're listening.. STOP, just STOP developing whatever your newest invention/gadget/Pro Tools enhancement it is you're working on and FIX this nagging problem.

Don't get me wrong. I seriously WANT to love this thing. I thought this was going to finally work better than the Artist Mix knobs. After all "they were taken from the S3" ohhhhhhhhhhhhh..... ahhhhh..... Well, if the S3 knobs work like this too than count me out as a future potential customer.

I'm honestly confused about this knob situation. For instance, with the PT Control App if you try and control say, an EQ plugin, with your finger on the iPad the adjustments are smooth and seamless but if you use the control knobs on the dock the settings jump all over the place. Anything more than the slightest movement could make a setting jump by 10db! I just don't understand how the wireless iPad app can be so smooth while the hardwired hardware is inconsistent. It makes no sense. Also, give us the option for linear response. Apparently that's nothing new.

Overall, I'm undecided on the dock as a whole. I love certain features of it and still disappointed in others. This control surface has the potential to be AMAZING if only AVID would pay attention to the details. I have a few days to decide if those things bother me enough to send it back.

The Dock is a perfect chance for AVID to persuade users to jump to an S3 from their Artist Mixes.. DON'T SCREW IT UP AVID. -- fix this!
Hi Guys,

So, there 3 things being discussed here around knobs (encoders) and it's important these be kept separate because they are different:

1. Encoder Kinetics - acceleration and velocity characteristics of parameter control. Currently, there is an acceleration curve where the faster you turn the knob, the faster the parameters increase or decrease. I am very much aware that this is not desired for some users and improvements (linear response, etc) in this area are a high priority for us.

2. Encoder Part Quality - this is completely independent of #1. The Dock encoders and S3 encoders are identical and superior to Artist Series in terms of part quality.

3. Encoder Performance - Anything not related to #1 and #2. For instance, turning the encoder and having the parameter jump by 10db on Pro Tools | Control.

Anthony, regarding #3:
• How is the Dock connected?
• Is the iPad connected via 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz band on your router?
• What parameter are you controlling when you see the 10dB jump? Does it happen with new session and one audio track with EQ3 inserted?
• What version of Pro Tools?

What you are experiencing here is not at all normal behavior. So, we need to figure out what in the system is causing this performance issue (#3).

Thanks,
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  #16  
Old 07-21-2016, 05:20 PM
Anthony_Anz Anthony_Anz is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2016
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Posts: 191
Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

Hey Kyle, thanks again for your help with my DHCP (non)issue =)

As far as the knob encoders. Let's just get #2 off the table. Yes the part quality is 1000x superior to the artist mix. They feel better, they turn better (smoother) the resistance on them is better and they press down easier. They are actually quite nice to operate I can't find any fault in part quality. Which is why #1 and #3 are falling a bit short so far. The knobs can be made of pure gold if they don't perform they are still non-functioning =)

#1. You guys are aware we would like the linear option and acknowledge that it is on some priority list.. got it.. check.. I hope this option is implemented soon... =)

#3. Let me answer your ?s

-The dock is connected via supplied ethernet cable to the same 5 port switch (Netgear Fast Ethernet Switch FS105) with the rest of my artist mixes and my PC.

-My iPad mini 2 is connected to my access point via the 2.4Ghz band. (not sure why that would matter. The iPad performs flawlessly!)

-Brand new session, 2 blank audio tracks, EQ3 7 band, HPF. - Turning any encoder, at anything other than a very slow rate, makes the param jump. 10hz / db is the most drastic I've seen, it's usually in the 4-5 increment range. - This could totally be tied to the acceleration curve applied to the knob encoders. Again, when I use the iPad app to adjust the same param with my finger I have absolutely no issues.

-PT 12.5.2

As as side note, the iPad App has truly come a long way. I think it rocks. IT was the reason I got the Dock. Kudos to you guys on that one.

Thanks for your help!
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  #17  
Old 07-21-2016, 05:25 PM
msw msw is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: London, England
Posts: 24
Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

I don't know how relevant this may be but I use both Pro-Tools and Pyramix in my work - and use my controllers with both. Pyramix on a Win 7 machine, Pro Tools on OS X Yosemite - both with latest windows and mac eucon software.

On Pyramix the dock encoders are significantly better - even the kinetics don't bother me. The response is smooth and logical based on my physical movement.

On Pro Tools the encoder response does not seem smooth or consistent whether holding the command modifier or not.

If they responded in pro-tools as they do in pyramix I would wonder what everyone is complaining about.

Is it possible that the issues we all have are caused by pro-tools implementation of eucon rather than the hardware or eucon itself?
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  #18  
Old 07-22-2016, 08:53 AM
bobbyguelz bobbyguelz is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 100
Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

Kyle... Hopefully you're seeing enough crying out for the knob issue to be implemented in a useful way. Every time I reach for the knobs, I'm reminded to not use them. Feels like driving a car where the steering wheel gives the driver no feedback... feeling like you're detached from actually steering the vehicle.

Also... VIRTUAL LAYOUTS please!!! Would be so useful to tuck our different food groups into our layouts while not being limited by only 16 faders.

Here's to hoping!
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  #19  
Old 07-23-2016, 08:08 PM
Kyle Splittgerber's Avatar
Kyle Splittgerber Kyle Splittgerber is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: CA
Posts: 313
Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Anz View Post
Hey Kyle, thanks again for your help with my DHCP (non)issue =)

As far as the knob encoders. Let's just get #2 off the table. Yes the part quality is 1000x superior to the artist mix. They feel better, they turn better (smoother) the resistance on them is better and they press down easier. They are actually quite nice to operate I can't find any fault in part quality. Which is why #1 and #3 are falling a bit short so far. The knobs can be made of pure gold if they don't perform they are still non-functioning =)

#1. You guys are aware we would like the linear option and acknowledge that it is on some priority list.. got it.. check.. I hope this option is implemented soon... =)

#3. Let me answer your ?s

-The dock is connected via supplied ethernet cable to the same 5 port switch (Netgear Fast Ethernet Switch FS105) with the rest of my artist mixes and my PC.

-My iPad mini 2 is connected to my access point via the 2.4Ghz band. (not sure why that would matter. The iPad performs flawlessly!)

-Brand new session, 2 blank audio tracks, EQ3 7 band, HPF. - Turning any encoder, at anything other than a very slow rate, makes the param jump. 10hz / db is the most drastic I've seen, it's usually in the 4-5 increment range. - This could totally be tied to the acceleration curve applied to the knob encoders. Again, when I use the iPad app to adjust the same param with my finger I have absolutely no issues.

-PT 12.5.2

As as side note, the iPad App has truly come a long way. I think it rocks. IT was the reason I got the Dock. Kudos to you guys on that one.

Thanks for your help!
My guess is that you are seeing this jumpiness because of the 2.4Ghz band. 2.4Ghz is very susceptible to interference and we don't recommend using it. I'd suggest switching to 5Ghz band. If your current router doesn't support that, then you'd need to buy a new one. The Apple Airport Express routers are great. Or, ideally purchase the USB3 Camera Adapter + USB2 Ethernet Adapter for a hardwired connection from iPad to Mac. This is a very solid way to connect and not be at the mercy of wi-fi issues.

DISCLAIMER: I can't say with 100% certainty that the 2.4Ghz is the issue. But, I can say 2.4Ghz is known to be problematic in general. If you switch to 5Ghz or Adapter setup and still see the issue, let me know.
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  #20  
Old 07-25-2016, 03:27 AM
JanuS JanuS is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Posts: 251
Default Re: Soft Knob Kinetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber View Post
Hi Guys,

So, there 3 things being discussed here around knobs (encoders) and it's important these be kept separate because they are different:

1. Encoder Kinetics - acceleration and velocity characteristics of parameter control. Currently, there is an acceleration curve where the faster you turn the knob, the faster the parameters increase or decrease. I am very much aware that this is not desired for some users and improvements (linear response, etc) in this area are a high priority for us.

2. Encoder Part Quality - this is completely independent of #1. The Dock encoders and S3 encoders are identical and superior to Artist Series in terms of part quality.

3. Encoder Performance - Anything not related to #1 and #2. For instance, turning the encoder and having the parameter jump by 10db on Pro Tools | Control.
Hello Kyle,
I think for most users, for me anyway, the knob kinetics are the biggest issue.
We want linear response!

When writing automation real time, the speed of filtering is very important. This is not possible with an acceleration curve.

I'm looking forward to the update!

Cheers,

Jan
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