Shelled out for the Waves Bundle, went back to stock plugins.

[GeneRoberts]

Originally Posted by JFreak

Some good stuff, yes.. a couple of my favourites:
- C6
- L3LL Multi
- Dorrough Meters
- SSL Channel
- API2500
- SuperTap

Thanks. I'm going to look into these and see if I can learn to use them well.

[GeneRoberts]

Originally Posted by huzzam

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I have to point out: the thing that you didn't upgrade when you bought the Waves plugins is your own skill (as well as your monitoring environment). Now I don't know anything about how skilled you are, nor about your monitoring system. But: you carefully crafted your first mix to the best of your ability, with the (quite capable) stock tools at hand. Then you tried to do the same with Waves (perhaps overusing the new tools in your excitement) and were disappointed that they didn't provide more "magic." But you're the same engineer, and looking for the same result, only "better"...

In my experience, "better" tools don't necessarily make better mixes than decent tools; they make getting good mixes easier. For example, you can get super fat crunchy analog-style delays with stock PT plugs — just throw some saturation, modulation, & eq after the delay plug in & dial them in, perhaps routing the channel back into itself for the feedback. But if you have (eg, my favorite delay) EchoBoy, you just open it and pick which style you want, or poke around if you're not sure what you want.

That said, I don't argue that there's no point in getting other plugins; in particular reverbs impart such a distinct, present color, and are worth investigating. & a great limiter, a surgical subtractive eq, and a multiband compressor are also very worthy additions to the stock offerings.

A great painter can mix any color from red, yellow, blue, white, and black. But you might still prefer to buy a certain green that you like...

Anyway on your next mix, maybe try working with mostly what you already know well, and pick one or two of your Waves plugs to experiment with. For example, try using the SSL Channel as your only eq/comp on all your tracking channels, and getting really used to that. Keep everything else the same. Or pick one of your new reverbs as the main verb, and have the L2 or SSL Comp on your master bus, at a gentle setting, from the start of your mix. This way you can learn your new tools specifically, and appreciate their colors for what they each offer.

Or else try to get every single new plugin somewhere in your session :)

~peter in athens

Thank you for the intelligent thoughts and the good advice. I agree with you. I have many years of experience in music making but digital production is relatively new to me. So it's entirely possible I haven't yet learned how to use the tools.

[GeneRoberts]

Originally Posted by lesbrunn

Hi Gene,

Correct me if I'm wrong, and this is just a feeling I have, but could it possibly be that in your eagerness to get 'pro' results with your new plugins, you've maybe been a little over-zealous? I know I've been there before.

Depending on the material, sometimes less is more when processing audio. Many experienced engineers would probably do some subtractive EQ first, before boosting if necessary. It's easy to process a track to death especially with EQ and compression, so constant comparison along the way is important. Our ears are good at forgetting what went on before, and they quickly adjust to what's happening now.

I've used Waves for over a decade, and I find many of their plugins quite good. Maybe instead of throwing your Waves plugins away, you could tackle the issue from the perspective that you want to improve on what you had done previously with the stock plugins (they're also quite usable, BTW). With that in mind, I'd probably duplicate the tracks I'm working on and do a constant A&B between stock and Waves. Mind you, your AB should be carried out while processing, not after the fact.

As was said before, it's all a matter of choice and how comfortable you are with your tools. That said, it's still possible to become more and more comfortable with new tools to the point where you may actually prefer some of them to your previous ones. I press all of them (stock and 3rd party) into use depending on what needs to be done and which tool I think is most suitable.

With me for instance, the 7 band stock EQ gets a lot of use, but the Fabfilter Pro Q is more suitable for precision surgery. The waves EQ's also get some love. Many digital EQ's can sound harsh in the higher frequencies, but there are a couple that have a silky smooth high end, so those come into play when that is called for.

Thanks for your comments. I might have been a little overzealous... But if we take eq, for instance, the PT stock 7-band eq seems superior to the ones in Waves, with the exception that it won't let me see frequency wave activity while tweaking. (Same thing with the delay plugin. I just couldn't dial in anything that sounded good and went to the PT stock delay, which is a very good plugin, apparently, with lots of useful features.)

And yes, the presence boost on most eq's has been harsh. Which one is it that gives the silky smooth high end?

[JFreak]

Sonnox EQ with the GML option

[GeneRoberts]

Originally Posted by JFreak

Sonnox EQ with the GML option

Three bills... This time I might have to demo first. :)

[K Roche]

Originally Posted by GeneRoberts

Three bills... This time I might have to demo first. :)

I have the Platinum bundle also and Honestly I don't use that much of it .
For me Waves is a real mixed bag . Now I agree with the gent that stated the Maxim is distorted , for me it is unlistenable where the Wave L2 is quite good.
Although because I am on a Mac I use the Massey L2007 limiter.

For EQ I think it is pretty hard to beat the PT bundled EQ III especially for precise subtractive work. And also Use the bundled Channelstrip for my vocals

As for waves if have used with some success I like the H-delay for guitars and the Waves doubler on occasion . I also used the Ren. reverb before I got a Bricasti M7 which ended almost all of my plug reverb use.
However you can now get a Bricasti sanctioned plug in called Seventh Heaven from Liquid Sonics

https://www.liquidsonics.com/software/seventh-heaven/

They have two versions If money is tight the standard version does indeed have arguably the most used Bricasti presets and would work fine

I have heard a solo acoustic guitar with this plug in and it was superb. IF I did Not have the Hardware M7 I would not hesitate to get this plug in.
The Bricasti presets are as good as it gets IMO
For my vocals I use the Sunset Chamber with 60 ms predelay.

Here is an example of that Sunset Chamber preset /with 60ms (ignore the fact that is probably recorded a bit to hot and I have not taken the time to re-record it ) and it is 128 bit MP3.

Don't know why the Sound Cloud player will not play in the DUC forum
but the link below it will https://soundcloud.com/kevwind/thequestion



The vocal you linked has great air and presence, Personally I don't think it is all that heavily processed and I'm not sure about delay. Now you may already know all this BUT.
For vocal I always place the verb on an Aux track@ 100% wet in (parallel) and send to it.
I would guess that whatever verb might be used that A. it is in parallel and B. it is likely pre delayed by some where between 40 ms and 80 ms Which IMO tends to let more air and presence through.
If you haven't already done it try the predelay and you could also try the Abby Road Vocal trick .
https://youtu.be/4lNckK8N3to

[GeneRoberts]

Originally Posted by K Roche

The vocal you linked has great air and presence, Personally I don't think it is all that heavily processed and I'm not sure about delay...

Wow! That Abbey Road trick is amazing! Thank you so much! Can't believe I might continue mixing not know that cool trick. Some reverb plugins allow you to roll off the highs and stuff, it's nothing like being able to fine tune the reverb like this.

As far as delay, I think some of it must have been used on her vocal to bring her close, to the front of the mix and give some warmth and body to the vocal.

Reverb alone, no matter what plugin is used, doesn't seem to get me there completely. I am going to experiment with the pre-delay settings you suggested and see what I can get.

P.S. Great singing on that track there! The recording itself is fine too. Not sure if recording it too hot was the reason why the guitar is so stridently forward. The mic could have been too close to the sound-hole, plus the strings are pretty bright. A softer pick might help. But it's all fine as it is, overall. The vocals (both tone and singing) are just great!

I wonder if you'd use any delay, if you were mixing to achieve a similar effect, though. Somehow I feel like it needs to be used, even if ever so gently.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by GeneRoberts

Got the Platinum Bundle + a few separate reverb and some other plugins. And I agree with you. Their eq plugins were so bad I don't see myself ever using them. I'll see if I can find something I like later.

By "forward vocal reverb" I meant having good reverb effect without losing the vocals into the background. For example, this song ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4BfyFCzWCs ) is my reference track, and you'll notice how forward and present the vocal sounds while apparently being heavily processed with reverb (and possibly delay effects). I am trying to achieve the same results with my female vocal track. Whichever reverb plugin I bought (and I probably won't buy more) got me farther and farther away from my goal. Then I got back to the good old D-verb and it got me closest to this effect.

I never said the Waves eqs are bad but just that they're not exactly surgical in their usefullness; more broad strokes than anything else. Then again you really need to look at what each eq can do - some have a 'sound' that's unique to that eq. Which is why an API style eq sounds different than a Pultec than an SSL eq.

Your first mistake is getting the Platinum bundle. Sure you get a bunch of plugins but you also, as you've found out, gotten plugs that you'll never use or don't work for you. Like I said, before your next purchase spend some time with demos of plugins - that approach has saved me a ton of money. There's been times where I've demoed a plug that's supposed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and it ends up being month old moldy instead.

As to the reverb on the linked to video I'd take a guess and say some kind of plate reverb. They also didn't roll-off much in the reverb as it stays fairly bright. Try Abbey Road Plates with one of the solid state drivers (i.e. don't use the tube model). If you don't have a plate reverb try an old-school tank spring reverb.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by GeneRoberts

Wow! That Abbey Road trick is amazing! Thank you so much! Can't believe I might continue mixing not know that cool trick. Some reverb plugins allow you to roll off the highs and stuff, it's nothing like being able to fine tune the reverb like this.

As far as delay, I think some of it must have been used on her vocal to bring her close, to the front of the mix and give some warmth and body to the vocal.

Reverb alone, no matter what plugin is used, doesn't seem to get me there completely. I am going to experiment with the pre-delay settings you suggested and see what I can get.

P.S. Great singing on that track there! The recording itself is fine too. Not sure if recording it too hot was the reason why the guitar is so stridently forward. The mic could have been too close to the sound-hole, plus the strings are pretty bright. A softer pick might help. But it's all fine as it is, overall. The vocals (both tone and singing) are just great!

I wonder if you'd use any delay, if you were mixing to achieve a similar effect, though. Somehow I feel like it needs to be used, even if ever so gently.

Delay won't bring a vocal forward. In another response to you here I mentioned trying Abbey Road Plates. Do you have H-Reverb? That may do what you want; make use of the input and output echoes as well as the built-in eq.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by GeneRoberts

I don't get it. After being on this forum for a while, I realized that I needed a bunch of plugins, and instead of paying each time, I just went ahead and got the Waves bundle. I had a mix done with stock plugins and thought the new plugins would help perfect it. After spending a couple of days educating myself about these plugins (watching tutorials, reviews, etc.) I started to replace all the stock plugins I had applied. I tweaked everything meticulously and kept exporting mixdowns along the way.

Now, I am sitting here and doing AB tests between these mixes, before and after the Waves plugins, and I find the mix produced with the stock plugins is a lot more natural and superior in every way. I now have to revert everything back to stock, I'm afraid.

For example, I tried the Waves H-Verb, Abbey Road Plates, TrueVerb, and none of these gave me the natural, forward vocal reverb sounds I got with the stock D-verb (using their room or plate settings). I also found the stock Pro Tools eq to be more serviceable for precision work than the ones coming with Waves. Similarly, the L2 limiter was no improvement over the stock Maxim, and it was simply a waste of time going from one plugin to the next.

Anybody had a similar experience?

How much previous experience have you had with the "stock plugins" compared to the few days you have spent with various Waves plugins?