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Futurist 04-17-2007 11:53 AM

Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
I am running HD3 Accel, Pro Tools 7.3.1 on a Mac Pro 2.66, OS 10.4.8, with 2 gigs of ram, and have observed an odd boot behaviour about 2 out of ten times. I press the power button, the light comes on, but no other computer activity. I then press and hold the button to force shut down, then I boot-up again, which 90% of the time will boot-up normally-(occasionally takes 2 or more times).
This ONLY occurs with the Digi cards installed. I spent 4 hours at a local Apple store with a tech recently, and we exhaustively tested everything possible, and the Mac is 100%, without the cards. The cards all check out perfect with DigiTest, but there is clearly a glitch happening somewhere. It also happens with any combination of 1,2, or all 3 cards. I'm not sure if it is worth sending back the cards for exchange, although it is likely. The Digidesign tech I spoke to had never heard of this before. Is there anyone else who knows of this?

Pete Gates 04-17-2007 01:06 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
No consolation but I'm getting this too on my Quad 3GHz MacPro. I assumed it was the Mac, won't get a chance to pull out any cards till the end of the project I'm on but it sounds like exactly the same thing.

Pete

Futurist 04-17-2007 01:38 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Well, if you and I are experiencing this, there are bound to be others. Although it is mainly an annoyance, it has embarrased me a couple of times when cranking up my rig to show someone when, ...oops...please wait while I reboot! I'll bet you if I replace the cards, the problem may still exhist. The curiosity will probably get the best of me, and I will go for the exchange...what a drag. I am loving this system otherwise!

Illusion Rake 04-17-2007 01:41 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
My MacPro is holding on forever when doing a restart...otherwise working fine. I´ve had a couple of times the cold boot-up problem too...

MP 2,66 / HD3

nmiller79 04-17-2007 01:55 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
I have noticed this problem on a few machines and have even noticed without HD cards in it. In one specific instance a reset of logic board helped. I wish this problem was less intermittent as it would help narrow the problem down.

I'll post back if I find out something new

NM

Quote:

Well, if you and I are experiencing this, there are bound to be others. Although it is mainly an annoyance, it has embarrased me a couple of times when cranking up my rig to show someone one when, ...oops...please wait while I reboot! I'll bet you if I replace the cards, the problem may still exhist. The curiosity will probably get the best of me, and I will go for the exchange...what a drag. I am loving this system otherwise!


Futurist 04-17-2007 02:06 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
The randomness of it I find very confusing. I hope anyone having this problem reports it to Digidesign. I wonder, if some are experiencing this, and others aren't, could there be a possibe difference in components on some cards? I removed the cards and rebooted at least 40 times, and never had it happen. And then, with two cards in, it seemed to stop for a few days, at which point I thought it was a certain card, but it eventually showed up again.

AAR 04-17-2007 03:19 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
I have 2 Mac Pro's quad 2.66 too, and they both do the same thing. One out of 3 boot-ups the switch light comes on and no chime, or it hangs on the grey apple boot up screen. At first I thought I had a bad computer but the second one we bought is doing the same thing. I noticed it happens almost every time if the computer a/c cord is disconcected and reconnected after a while. Definately scary, and not good in front of clients.

AAR 04-17-2007 03:37 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
I forgot to mention that sometimes after replugging the a/c cord to the computer, it boots automatically without pressing the power button as if the power is trigerring the startup. I have seen it do this without the Digi cards in it on more than one occasion. My guess is the Mac Pro has a startup issue when it sees cards on the PCIe bus.

ThomasPMusic 04-17-2007 03:49 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
2 things---
1, I notice that the computer (macpro 2.66) does not come on reliably when I hold the power button at all. I have to hit it quick, stacatto, for musicians...
If I hold it longer, no go sometimes,
2, The computer really peaks out my Furman power conditioner with amperage display. A very heavy start-up surge. About the same as an air conditioner, or vaccuum cleaner, really.
Could some people be experiencing power problems because of the spike? Would spike harder with a "load" on the PCI bus, right?
How many people with problems have more than 1 hard drive?
How many have 10k drives?
How many plug the mac into a voltage regulator that maybe can't handle the spike?
tp

Futurist 04-17-2007 03:56 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Strangely enough, I had that a/c cord power up happen to me one time, (cards in), and it was at the Apple Store, when the tech and I were trouble-shooting. We looked at each other like, what the hell?

Futurist 04-17-2007 04:09 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Those are good points. I haven't noticed it having anything to do with the button pushing duration, but I will check that out further. My boot-up issue occured at the Apple Store, and at my studio hooked up to an APC Smart-Ups 1500. Perhaps there is a bit of a surge, but I'm not so sure that's what the problem is. I tried it with 1 and 2 internal drives, and that didn't effect it. Peripherals don't effect it.
I want to know if anybody with a similar setup, has NOT had this problem.

AAR 04-17-2007 04:47 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
I did some reading and found that the Mac Pro, unlike the PPC G5 has dynamically allocated lanes for the PCIe bus. Which could mean one thing. At startup, the Mac Pro is probablly trying to decipher the allocation for the lanes with the Digi cards and is perhaps miscomunicating with the cards and is hanging??? May not be Mac's fault but of the cards as well..?

here's a link to what I've found:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/appl...ons.html#lanes

Futurist 04-17-2007 07:19 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
It would be nice to see Digidesign weigh in on this!

AAR 04-18-2007 03:55 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Again today my Mac Pro would not boot, black screen, no chime. Had to force it twice. This reminds me, the early PPC G5 had a cold boot problem, I wonder if this is sort of the same problem Apple used to have.

Futurist 04-18-2007 06:01 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
I imagine it would be worth posting this issue on an Apple forum. One small positive realization is that I probably don't need to bother having my cards swapped out, as now I know that there are at least a couple of other people with the same problem, I might just sit tight with these for now until more information comes to light. You say that G5's had a similar problem. Was that a problem with even non-Pro Tools equiped units?

Tim R. 04-18-2007 06:30 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
I'm SOOOO glad I'm not alone. I'm having the same problem (HD1 MacPro 2.6). I've been swapping ram etc. to no avail. I'm also experiencing problems with my monitors not refreshing on boot. The monitors often won't come on til the mac desktop is up (no apple sign at boot). Again, maybe it's a PCI power issue with the HD cards.

Let's all stay in touch on this. I'd love to get it resolved.

Tim

Futurist 04-18-2007 06:58 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
That is a weird one about your monitors, I have not experienced that. I am using a pair of Samsung 204B's and they come right up (or at least during a successful boot they do). What monitors are you using, and are you sure it has nothing to do with them?
It's definately not a ram issue, and I even tried taking my video card in and out in different combinations with my HD cards! I originally had a compound problem where my second internal drive (500 gig Maxtor) wasn't mounting properly and acting strange...turns out it had nothing to do with the boot problem fortunately (bad drive). I'm waiting for Seagate to send a replacement.

Tim R. 04-18-2007 08:48 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
My monitors are a pair of viewsonic 17" LCDs. (VG700). Sometimes when my mac doesn't boot, My primary monitor shows a greyish screen.

I'll make a call to my Digi rep to get him up to speed.

Tim

mix109 04-19-2007 03:00 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 

Seems that my problem is something more diifferent....but i will post since it prob las to do with PCIe issues
Here is the Case
(2) Identical MacPros 2.66: 2x500WJD HD,and 2Gig additional Crucial Ram, MacOSX 10.4.8,also tried 10.4.9(Combo updater)
HD2 System with 192 and Sync I/O

When launched PT 7.3 for the fist time on the first MacPro i got a DAE ERROR -1122,could not figure out what that was and even DigiTest wont launch either.
I thought it was an issue with the HD cards,swithced the HD2 pair with the other one...and guess what...Same Error
no matter if i used one card(Core) or both of them.
The other MacPro works ok
So i am stuck with the MacPro..and i am not sure who to blame and how one can prove that to Apple that this MacPro must be
retuned and replaced...or if it is Digi;s Fault

GuyPicks 04-19-2007 08:26 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Man, I can't believe I'm reading this. I haven't been able to get on the forum for awhile but I'm having the same problem with my HD3 system I got last fall.
I thought it was just the Mac. Maybe not. Otherwise I love my system too.


Guy

EDITED: just wanted to add that I have PCIe cards and sometimes when booting the fans on the computer just go wild and computer won't start. This happens about 1 out of 10 times too.
Don't know what to make of it.
If anyone finds out anything please post. I won't be able to shut down for awhile.

nmiller79 04-19-2007 09:22 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 

that is the exact same symptom i have seen ......? has digi seen this....

Quote:

EDITED: just wanted to add that I have PCIe cards and sometimes when booting the fans on the computer just go wild and computer won't start. This happens about 1 out of 10 times too.
Don't know what to make of it.
If anyone finds out anything please post. I won't be able to shut down for awhile.


Tim R. 04-19-2007 09:39 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Posted this problem to MACNN last night and got 1 response already of someone with the boot fail WITHOUT additional cards. The thread is here:

http://forums.macnn.com/65/power-mac...m/#post3359870

Maybe it's a Mac issue, compounded by Digi PCI-E cards.

Everyone experiencing this should report to Apple and Digi.

Tim

Futurist 04-19-2007 09:46 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Okay guys, I just spoke to my Digi Rep in Florida (who used to work for Apple), and he told me that this issue is related to Apple's power supply, and that they get 15-20% returned computers regarding this. He said that it would make no difference what cards you put in, (any brand of cards could cause it) and that the HD cards in particular have nothing to do with it! He suggested having Apple fix it under warranty, which he says would mean a motherboard swapout.
Bummer!!!
I hope some of you will check with your Digi Reps so we can compare notes.

Futurist 04-19-2007 12:24 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Well, I just got off the phone with an Apple product specialist, and he says there isn't any wide spread issue with non-Digi equipped Macs that he knows of regarding this problem, but he did offer some suggestions; one being a proceedure that is done by Apple techs to the System Management Unit, which has a tiny reset button, and is performed on machines with power problems. I can tell you that this was done to my computer at the Apple Store, and it did not remedy the problem.
Another more intriguing possibility he mentioned has to do with the Core card possibly sucking up too much bandwidth on startup, and a way to check this is with a utility located at Internal Drive/System/Library/CoreServices/Expansion Slot Utility.
I don't want to try any of the Alternate PCI Express Profiles until I know precisely what the x-value is on the HD cards, or to at least get Digi's guidance on this.

rupert47 04-19-2007 07:29 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Hi

I’m running a 3ghz macpro with 3 gigs of ram, 10.4.9, pro tools 7.3.1cs2. 2 500gig drives and 2 750 gig drives. I have a Digi expansion chassis (hd3 accel) and the only card in the computer is the host card that connects to the expansion chassis. I am running an Apple 30 inch monitor, when the system wont start up the light on the monitor blinks 3 times. Is anyone else noticing the blinking light? My system worked fine for 4 months and all of a sudden I have the intermittent start up issue.

Randy

AAR 04-20-2007 11:36 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Quote:

Okay guys, I just spoke to my Digi Rep in Florida (who used to work for Apple), and he told me that this issue is related to Apple's power supply, ......... Apple fix it under warranty, which he says would mean a motherboard swapout.
Bummer!!!



If it's the power supply, why would we need motherboards swapped out? Are they not telling us something? Why dont they just send you the power supply so you can swap it yourself?

A1 04-20-2007 01:17 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Same problem here with my 3Ghz Mac Pro.
I always end up unplugging the power cord, wait at least 5 minutes before plugging it back in… any sooner the computer still won’t boot up.
It is kind of weird as if the power supply is heating up something inside the computer (while it is off) and needs to cool down for it to boot back up.

Futurist 04-20-2007 04:24 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Quote:

[/QUOTE]
If it's the power supply, why would we need motherboards swapped out? Are they not telling us something? Why dont they just send you the power supply so you can swap it yourself?

[/QUOTE]

I am simply paraphrasing what the Digi Rep told me. I am not so sure that his information is accurate, but I thought it was worth reporting, and considering. I wasn't entirely satisfied with the answer either, so I continue searching. I actually appreciated what the Apple Product Specialist told me (as I reported in this thread) regarding the Expansion Slot Utility. There seemed to be a bit of a contradiction between the Digi Rep and the Apple tech on the power supply issue. I plan on calling Digidesign in the coming days to inquire about this, unless someone else beats me to it.
In the meantime, I don't plan to touch any hardware components in my Mac until more info comes to light.

Futurist 04-23-2007 02:02 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
I spoke at length today with Digidesign tech support, and I think the problem has now been made officially known! We spoke about the Expansion Slot Utility, but they are not sure if this would have an effect on the problem (although it was said that if any of the alternate profiles were worth trying, it would be the Two x8 Lane + Two x4 Lane Slots setting). I have not yet tried this.
It does appear obvious that this is a hardware issue, but Digi does not seem to know at this time if it is related to their cards, the Mac, or both. They seemed very helpful and interested in solving the problem however.

peter99 04-23-2007 04:52 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
same problem here with HD3 and mac pro 2.66...

Jamie Smith 04-24-2007 06:22 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Quote:

No consolation but I'm getting this too on my Quad 3GHz MacPro. I assumed it was the Mac, won't get a chance to pull out any cards till the end of the project I'm on but it sounds like exactly the same thing.

Pete

Ditto, I have experienced exactly the same glitch on my MacPro 3GHz/HD3 and had also assumed it was the Mac, haven't tried it without the cards, but had wondered what it was.

This has not caused me any serious problems yet, just sometimes the light comes on but she won't boot, but it's intermittent, and has only happened 3 or 4 times, and always works second time except once where I recall I had to try 3 times to get her to boot.

I've seen no grey screens or anything.

I noticed this behaviour first after I tried to install the Mac EFI firmware update, which didn't seem to work, (I didn't get the message post re-boot that the read me said I would), so I assumed it was this that had caused the problem, and left it be.

Anyone else tried the EFI update?

J

DigiTechSupt 04-24-2007 11:37 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem *DELETED*
 
Post deleted by DigiTechSupt

jmark 04-24-2007 04:30 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
From one of my posts a couple months back:

"1) About one reboot out of every 20-25, the machine will sit at the initial white screen and hang...no grey apple, no nothing except the white screen. The only remedy is to hold down the power button and then turn it back on (it always boots normally then...never seen this problem twice in a row)."

I'm using PT M-Powered on the Mac Pro, and the only card in the machine is the video card that came with it.

DigiTechSupt 04-24-2007 04:46 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Quote:

From one of my posts a couple months back:

"1) About one reboot out of every 20-25, the machine will sit at the initial white screen and hang...no grey apple, no nothing except the white screen. The only remedy is to hold down the power button and then turn it back on (it always boots normally then...never seen this problem twice in a row)."

I'm using PT M-Powered on the Mac Pro, and the only card in the machine is the video card that came with it.

jmark - We're trying to keep this thread specific to HD systems. If you're having a problem with an LE system, you should start a new thread.

DigiTechSupt 04-24-2007 04:51 PM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
For anyone experiencing this problem on a MacPro, I'd like to get some info and have you try something.

There is a utility called Expansion Slot Utility located at MacHD>System>Library>CoreServices. Launch that utility and, if possible, take a screen shot of it and post it somewhere that we can see it. If you have the time, I'm curious if changing the settings to a different slot config has any effect on the bootup of your machines.

Thanks in advance for your time.

PlanB 04-25-2007 12:08 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Ok, finally I was able to remedy this mess.
This problem caused me quite some headaches, since it was on a customer's machine. I went as far as giving him a totally new MacPro to keep him happy.
His old machine doesn't show the startup behaviour in my shop. Now I know why... I changed the PCIe configuration because I installed a PCIe eSATA host card (Sonnet E4P). Ever since, no more problems.
The config it is running now is the first choice, with 16x for the graphics card (a ATI 1900x) and 8x for the last slot (to feed the eSATA card). I know the config was different before, but I don't remember what setting was used.
This afternoon I will install a HD2 in the said system and run some tests.
Thanks for the guys who noticed this... saved me headaches and a blame on my rep... the customer was thinking I tried to give him a bad Mac or sompin...
And Apple tech suggested it was a RAM issue, but I knew it couldn't be, cause it uses Apple approved RAM, and if the RAM would have been bad, there would have been operational problems too, i.e. erratical behaviour during sessions, strange freezes etc.
None of that though. The Apple tech tried to blame me when my customer phoned him. What a mess.
Now I can finally have justice be done

I will make sreenshots of all diffrent configs and try to post them somewhere.

Cheers
Arthur

Tim R. 04-25-2007 08:21 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Quote:

For anyone experiencing this problem on a MacPro, I'd like to get some info and have you try something.

There is a utility called Expansion Slot Utility located at MacHD>System>Library>CoreServices. Launch that utility and, if possible, take a screen shot of it and post it somewhere that we can see it. If you have the time, I'm curious if changing the settings to a different slot config has any effect on the bootup of your machines.

Thanks in advance for your time.

I tried a different config (3 from top). I had a spinning beach ball hang while trying to navigate the browser in Ableton Live, had to force shutdown (hold power button). Upon restart I got the grey screen no boot. I've now moved my HD card to slot 4 and reverted back to the top config (16X on the video slot and 8X on slot 4). When I reconnected the power cable the Mac booted itself (I LOVE that feature....NOT). I'll let yall know how THAT works.

Tim

Futurist 04-25-2007 09:27 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Quote:

For anyone experiencing this problem on a MacPro, I'd like to get some info and have you try something.

There is a utility called Expansion Slot Utility located at MacHD>System>Library>CoreServices. Launch that utility and, if possible, take a screen shot of it and post it somewhere that we can see it. If you have the time, I'm curious if changing the settings to a different slot config has any effect on the bootup of your machines.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Here is a screen shot of my ESU. http://home.comcast.net/~futurist/Picture1.jpg

DigiTechSupt 04-25-2007 09:47 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Futurist -

I'm wondering if anything changes if you use the last (bottom) configuration from the image you posted. OR if you change your slot order so that the core card is in the #4 slot.

If you're able to test that, I would be very grateful.

nhaudio 04-25-2007 10:50 AM

Re: Mac Pro/HD3 boot-up problem
 
Glad to hear I'm not alone on this one. No time to exchange any bits... must work!!

nh
Mac Pro 2.66, 3 Gigs RAM, PT 7.3.1 HD3, OSX 10.4.8


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