ilok - someone elses security system you pay for
 

well it had to happen sooner or later than my ilok key that came with my hd3 rig would crap out, hell it's a piece of cheap plastic made in china. the usb plug is soldered weakly onto a circuit board with minimal support so if you're plugging and unplugging is going to get stressed sooner or later as it did with mine, the pins connecting the usb socket to the board came loose making an intemitent power problem.
ok, call the local digi agents, ring ring, "not our problem, u have to contact ilok via their website".
er, ok, I'll give it a go, visit the site, wiggle the ilok to get it going and hit syncronize to copy register what keys I have, simple, no? ok download software, try again, no? you have not installed necessary software, yes I did, I did it right then, ok, try restart, nope, re install, try again? nope? ok read FAQ try and figure out why not, way down the list, firewall may inhibit syncronise, oh, ok, well in this modern age of internet protection that would have been a good thing to have on the front page, firewall off, try again, you don't have a key plugged in, yes I do and its working cos I started up my rig and it loads all keyed software.
hmm, ok contact ilok help, oh, wai, $25 american to converse with ilok per online help problem.

now hang on a second here, I paid my money up front for this very expensive professional software, I accept the minor inconvenience of the ilok copy protection, but now I'm supposed to pay for the protection of someone else's property.
cool, maybe digi and ilok want to chip in for the security and alarm monitoring on my studio premises for my rig, if we're all sharing costs and responsibilities on this thing.

Digi, I can see you're need to protect your software from piracy, but the ilok system leaves a lot to be desired, and the protection of that software from piracy should not be the responsibility or at the expense of the customer. The scary fact that thousands of dollars of software is reliant on one small key, and the loss or damage of this key can shut you down for weeks and in extreme cases mean the lose of those thousands of dollars worth of software is mind boggling.

I don't know why I couldn't get my key to be synronised by the ilok site but it shouldn't cost me 25 bucks to figure it out, just so I could help digi out in the protection of their software.

I cracked open my key and re soldered the joints which has solved my problem for now, but its inevitable, that key is going to fail, and I'm going to have to pay for digis desire to protect their software that I paid for.

There's got to be a better solution than this.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay for
 

I think this issue has been dealt with over and over, It may not be perfect but its way better than Challange response or floppy key s disks. If your that worried about iloks "breakablitiy" and your worried about your "thousands of dollars" in software then shell out a lousy 25 bucks for zero downtime. if someting happens to it your up in no time at all. I had a problem with my Waves ilok not working on a Sunday morning and I had it up and running in under an hour.
It portable I can take it with me on an airpalne. If you can come up with a better solution then I would like to hear about it. But for me its an improvement over the past.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay for
 

Dude, i just bought a new G5............I WISH ALL MY PLUG INS WERE ILOK!..........So does my laptop!
i have to spend hours getting re-auths for my challenges, what a waste of time!

If you do have a better way, lets hear it!
So far for me, iLok is great. I just wish every plug in company would subscribe to it.....

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

Yes lets lead all Plugins like mindless cattle into the slaughter house!!!

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

my beef is with me having to pay for their chosen system of anti piracy and copy protection. why am I paying $25 per question to ilok. why are my valuable software authorisations (and hence ownership) on a cheap made in china plastic key which will breakdown. Ilok is great until it breaks down, goes missing or is stolen, then its an "all your eggs in one basket" liability.
I don't have a better system, but then I'm not the one designing software for professional markets.
I would rather digi operated their own ilok thing and we had more direct connection with the people authorising our keys.
I think digi should administer a system for its keys and third party software that runs on its progarms, and should accept the costs for administering it, deal with issues and keep it all happy instead of shopping it out to some third party who uses anti piracy as a way to make money of the people that are actually paying for the software. I bought this stuff, why am I paying for its copy protection, and why is that copy protection getting in the way of me using this software.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

This has been discussed here to death -- do a search and read every opinion about it.. some agree with you and others don't... but you'll also find that

a) almost no one has been billed for product support for the iLok
b) you're supposed to insure your iLok as you would any asset

Rail

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

one of my points was why am I paying for someone elses security. its not scurity for my rig, its security for their software, software I have already paid for.
with challenge response at least so long as I didn't lose the password my property was intact.floppy keys are of course completely obsolete, since most macs won't run floppy drives let alone come with them.
it was cool when floppy drives came as standard with comps but they don't now so rather than put the cost and responsiblity onto the buy another solution is needed.
I'm reading through the threads but still nothing has been done, and I'm commenting now, because now its my problem.
if you don't ask, you don't get.

also I have made some suggestions for possible alternatives.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

In theory what you are saying makes no sense. If you buy a pro tools rig is Digi responsible for it when it is at your studio? Ilok gives you the ability to transfer from one Ilok to another. If you knew the Ilok was going out on you then transfer the assets to another Ilok. If you have purchased a plug in then you would have to already authed and DL'ed the Ilok software. I am sure you double check your mic locker to make sure what you placed in there is still there, same with software assets. There is no better way to protect your assets then Ilok at this time. The cost is less then if you where to have your assets protected with an insurance company. Ilok is a third party. Digi only makes a small portion of the plug ins available to you. I don’t see how they should be responsible for other company’s assets.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

I'm comparing the act of software piracy protection, (which is the responsiblity of the software creator and benefits the software creator only, yet with ilok it costs us the software user) to the protection of my property, which is my responsiblity, in a humourous way.
I don't for a second expect digi to contibute to the security of my poperty, so why am I expected to pay for the upkeep of the protection of their property, or third party software people etc. Not that I dislike digi, hey I love em for the fun their product gives me, just that I'm questioning the trend in their and others software protection.

I intend to, because I have to, but as mentioned in my post I could not syncronise my keys with the site and to find out why not I have to give my credit card details to be chaged $25 for online help. charming. also I'm up for $80 for a new key. sweet, the costs for the protection from piracy for the software creators just keep piling up.

nope, I purchased an HD3 rig and got simm card authorisation chips for virus, reverb one, samplecell and a few others. I've never had to visit the ilok site.

sigh, you're missing the point. Ilok doesn't protect MY assets. it protects software authors assets.
it offers no protection to me, it merely stops the programs from being freely pirated. I'm cool with that, I just don't thik I should have to pay for the privilage.

This is true, not all plugins using ilok are made by digi, I know this, but the third party they have farmed out the responsiblity for the administration of their piracy protection to used in combination with their platform (protools) is imposing costs to the buyers of the software, and the system keeps the cost ongoing. the key is going to fault and wear, there's no avoiding it, and each time it does your up for more costs. and when the web authorisation doesn't function as it should and you have to contact ilok, you're up for more expenses.
maybe question response authorising was a pain to install but atleast it didn't cost you to run it and keep it.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay for
 

IMO, the challenge/response systems implemented by companies like Native Instruments and Spectrasonics are VASTLY better than the iLok. They work slick as a whistle. With those systems, you won't be stranded without use of your plug-ins if the iLok hardware fails. You don't have to fret about someone stealing your iLok if you're working outside of your home studio, and you don't have to jack up your annual insurance rates by needing to insure that little piece of plastic.

Lee Blaske

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay for
 

It is a frail device, that's for sure. It's not as robust as dongles from Apple/Emagic or Yellow Tools. Since it needs the card slot, it's not totally sealed like other dongles. It's also rather long, so when it's inserted into a USB socket, there's greater chance for breakage (because it's a longer lever).

For those needing to travel with iLoks, it might not be a bad idea to rig up some system to make them harder to break, lose or steal. One good way to add protection and security would be to buy a Tupperwear like container, and then glue a USB hub inside it. Cut out a hole for the hub's power and USB cable. Then, put the iLok in the hub, fill the container with foam peanuts, and put the top on. With this kind of rig, you won't have to worry as much about the iLok breaking, wearing out or damaging the iLok connections. It would prevent wear and tear. It would also add a little security (especially if you glued the top shut). Actually, there's a really good opportunity here for someone to make a sturdy, locking metal container (with a hub in it) that had some heavy duty hardware that could be used to chain it to furniture, etc. to prevent iLok theft.

The ease of stealing an iLok (that could easily have in the neighborhood of $10,000 worth of plugs on it) is frightening. Sure, you can insure it, but it's not good to be making huge insurance claims if you want to keep your rates low. In a busy commercial studio, people sure as heck don't leave $10,000 mics laying around.

The iLok is a flawed system that is disliked by many people. Many people have also developed an intense dislike for Pace. This is a negative for Digidesign, and no doubt if preventing some software sales. Something new must take its place. The sooner the better.

Lee Blaske

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

so have digi design got any plans for upgrading thier software antipiracy security to make it less of a burden on their customers?
digi?

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

I've resisted commenting on this for some time, but since you won't let it go, I can't help but comment on this kind of typical behavior in this day and age.

Part of running a business is maintaining your equipment, even the little plastic iLok. Even without purchasing zero downtime, there were things you could have done that would have made this easier, and quite possibly even avoided any problems at all if rough use by the user is what caused the iLok failure.

On iLok.com:

Synchronize your iLok before you have problems, so all the vendors can give you temporary licenses in the event of a problem.
Price: free

Dongle Buddy
"This flexible 8 inch (20 cm) USB cable extender is custom made to help protect your iLok from accidental damage."
Price: $5.95

Blaming everyone else because you didn't do either:
Priceless

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

you're missing my point. Ilok is nothing to do with my audio equipment, its got nothing to do whatsoever with recording mixing and producing music, its a security device to protect the authors software from piracy. it doesn't help me do a better mix, or get a better performane, it simply protects the people who wrote the software from piracy.

I object to this system costing me money, and (I) locking me into a system that will cost me and continue to cost ME money to maintain.
a challenge response system does not cost me money to maintain.
you're mine and everyone's ilok is going to fail at some stage and we're all going to have to deal with it. and we're all going to have to pay for that miantainance. I object to that. you're cool with it. sweet. mind pay for mine?

My key is presently going, I opened it and repaired it myself. I look after it, don't treat it badly and still it faulted. this time I could fix it, next time?
I can't get Ilok.com to see my key, I can not syncronise for what ever reason.
Ilok will look into it for me, but I've got to give em my credit card number first.
they may well not charge me, but they also might.
not a system I like.
luckily my dealer is going to look into it, but I have to post em my key, have some down time, a few days.

your key is going to fault sometime. shall I shut up until you feel its a problem? then maybe you can solve it for all of us?

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

Actually, there is at least one advantage to the iLok, and that's that it allows you to easily use plugins on several different computers. I like that. And I've found it much easier to use than challenge/response authorizations.

I don't think that's true. How do you know that "everyone's" iLok is going to fail? I have a few of them, and I haven't had to pay anything for mine yet, and my oldest one has been up and running for years.

-Duardo

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay for
 

Lee,

Although we must agree to disagree on this, if you travel and need to being your tools with you, as many of us do, you will HATE challenge/response.

If you have had the pleasure of a CPU migration recently, you will HATE challenge/response.

I can jump to other studios, bring my dongle on the airplane, work on someone else's rig, and never worry that the other system doesn't have my tools.

Unfortunately, not everyone owns Spectrasonics or NI plugs... But I can bring my entire arsenal with me. I plug 2 iLoks into a non-powered mini hub, and that's that (except for my 4 or 5 plugs that are C/R that I can't use unless the system has it).

You can't uninstall C/R auths -- so I can't put a temp auth onto another studio's rig. Of course, I can bring an external system drive...but why - if i can only bring an iLok?

We will never see eye to eye on this until your work/lifestyle demands that you move to other rigs.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

My car has one of those "security key/alarm/remote" keys. It has a microchip encoded with a code that only THIS KEY can start my car. if the key is not inserted, car will not start. My key failed after warranty expired. It cost $135 for a new key + $70 to the dealer to program it.

At the same time, I bought a 2nd (spare) key. The hassle taught me a lesson.

I have 2 blank iLok's sitting around. My primary (fully loaded) iLok has ZDT. I have one iLok for Waves (as they have their own system). So, for $30/year I don't worry about iLok failures. Ever. No issues. Problem solved. No bitching, no headaches, no worries.

What's that worth?

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

Interesting that few of you seem to appreciate the concept that is at the core of the issue - that USERS are paying to protect the copyright of the software companies.

Of course, ultimately the user pays, but iLok as a separate entity, is more expensive and more cumbersome. Instead of having the software companies as their clients, they have the end users. Lots of them. Each one of them pays iLok.

While many end user needs are being met, obviously some of their needs are not. Remember, without copyright protection, there would be no need for iLok.

The fact that this has been discussed to death is irrelevant. The iLok system has problems that could be fixed. For example, the dongle itself is poorly designed - it hogs space on the usb hub, it is prone to breakage. The Logic dongle, being smaller, is better in this regard.

If iLok never charges the $25, why do they ask for it? The first time I saw that I had to agree to a $25 charge before asking a question was - annoying to say the least. This policy is not well thought out and causes bad feelings towards iLok. Goodwill from your clients is crucial and iLok squanders it.

This has been mentioned before, but so what - a local Digi dealer told me of users that had bought a Waves package, but used the (k) versions to avoid dealing with copyright protection.

FWIW, I don't use ANY (k) software, and i don't advocate it. But morality aside (and moral issues can get pretty murky), it is not hard to see why someone would.

Those of you who are happy with iLok as is, great! For the rest of us, iLok has some work to do. I am always trying to improve on the job I do for my clients. A little more of that attitude at iLok would be a good thing.

Happy holidays!....H

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

Jeremy you're having trouble grasping this simple concept aren't you.
its ownership.
you own your car, so the protection of it benefits you. if its stolen you lose.
protecting the copyright of software does not benfit you directly, perhaps it benefits sociey asa whole, but not ou specifically. it benefits the writers of that software, yet under Ilok you pay directly to a third party (Ilok) to protect and maintain that protection, and they use that position to charge you, the end user and hike the price up. why can you not grasp this simple concept. you're making sound engineers look dumb.
you're arguing at cross purposes. no ones denying that the portable authorisation is a sweet feature, but that shouldn't be the primary purpose of the key. its to get the software running on one system, and it should'nt cost the user an ongoing expense.

You seem to be arguing for the right to pay for this stuff when really you're arguing for the right to move your authorisations around, and thats really an add on feature, and if you really want to you can argue for the right to pay for that in addition to your normal costs. it is a special needs feature after all.

I'm arguing for you and me to not have to pay for the anti piracy protection. two different things. I don't mind ilok sticking around if digi makes efforts to cover the maintainance and costs of it and perhaps even takes away the power from ilok corp. digi I trust, ilok, well they haven't really made themselves look good have they.
read logicheads post and see if that makes it easier for you to understand.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

You broke your iLok because YOU took lousy care of it. What part of that don't YOU understand?
Everything else you've written without acknowleging that basic fact is just noise. Who really looks dumb here?

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

That is true, the portability of plugins authorisations is an advantage, but at the expense of plan old vanilla variety one rig usage.
Its cool that you can use your rig in Antarctica or Mars if you want, but I and most others just want to get our own rigs going. So its a spin off benefit to the upper few percent who are lucky enough to jetset around mixing at exotic locations, at the expense of the average user. now where have I seen that logic used before?
I simply want to run my software, software I have already paid for in a trouble free and transparent way, anything after that is a bonus. portable plugin authorrisation is indeed a cute feature, but I don't need it and if I did then perhaps they should sell this as an addition feature targeted at those travelling and indemand jetseting people who could obviously afford it.

I don't think that's true. How do you know that "everyone's" iLok is going to fail? I have a few of them, and I haven't had to pay anything for mine yet, and my oldest one has been up and running for years.
-Duardo

[/QUOTE]

go and have a look at the construction of them again. maybe you got a nice chrome encased one but my rig came with a light plastic one, and if you are moving from rig to rig, or merely moving your rig to different locations as I do sometimes, you're going to have to remove it, store it, plug it back in etc, its going to be subject to stress, it is going to wear, and sooner or later it is going to fail.

now thats fine for a piece of hardware to fail, nothing lasts forever, I don't have a problem with that, but seeing as its someone else's security protection (ie you're doing someone else a favour by running this thing) surely they should do all the hard yards to make that system up keep transparent.

that would include not letting a third party bleed you for cash,
zero down time as mandatory and expected, (not as a bought and paid for bonus),
and flick out some gold plated keys or something, sheesh I don't know, just do something to repay the favour the customer is doing them.

bells and whistles is sweet but lets get the basics right first eh?

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

Thinking like that would just benefit a company that makes a crap quality product. They would sell twice as many iloks and not bother to develop it more. Why should they?

-Robert

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

Thats a special needs feature that benefits you sure, but its an add on, not the core issue of merely getting your software to run in a transparent fashion. moving round is sweet, but not at the expense of just simply getting one system to run, in a stable and transparent way.

surely the mobile authorisation is something completely different from merely getting a software authorised and running.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

How do we pay them to protect and maintain that protection? I've never given a cent directly to iLok. All of my iLoks came with software I purchased, and I have not purchased ZDT.

Of course we pay for copy protection...we would even if the manufacturers didn't use the iLok. You just seem to be bothered that you may on occasion have to pay the company that manages the copy protection directly.

It doesn't cost the end user an ongoing expense. If you're paying for ZDT, you're basically paying insurance, in case your iLok goes down. You're not paying for the copy protection itself. You don't have to have it. If your iLok goes down it will get taken care of. It may just take a few days, or you may have to contact all of the plugin manufacturers directly. Doesn't seem like a huge cost to pay to avoid that inconvenience if something were to go wrong.

If you're having to pay the fee if you have a problem, you're paying for technical support. That's very common. And as others have mentioned, it's a rare event that someone's actually charged for it. I had a technical issue that they took care of and I wasn't charged.

In my case, they have...the iLok was part of the package that came with my HD system. But why should they have to pay for additional "maintenance" for plugins that they didn't manufacture? Again, if anyone has to pay for "maintenance" at all. I haven't had to.

I don't know, but I'm not talking about the jetsetters (and for some reason, I doubt those guys are complaining in any case). I have two computers in my studio, and it's nice to be able to switch plugins between machines. And working at several different studios in town, or among bandmates, isn't an uncommon scenario either. But aren't we in the TDM forum anyhow? If you can afford to purchase a TDM system, is the expense really a big issue?

I'm sure our iLoks are identical. And now you're making it sound like you're one of the elite you were just talking about...sounds like you do take advantage of its other features.

If you're really concerned, get one of those little USB extenders and leave it plugged into that. Or leave it plugged into your USB hub and just unplug that.

I have a bunch of microphones in my studio I plug in and unplug on a regular basis. I don't think that the concept of taking good care of a relatively small, relatively valuable piece of equipment is a difficult one.

Again, the iLok is the most stable and transparent copy protection scheme I've seen yet. If you're really so opposed to the iLok, though, why not just use plugins from companies like Waves and Antares who don't require it?

-Duardo

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

so what are you going to do when you get a fault. shut down your studio cos the software copy protection mechanism stopped going? and you think thats reasonable.




yep, thats it in a nutshell.
ilok don't care about squeezing every penny out of us cos its not their software. digi on the other hand has a vested interest in their customers. squeeze to hard and they'll go to the neext platform that offers the same for less, not that that platform exists in my opinion at the moment, but it might.

How do you think its not going to cost you? you're definitely going to have a problem at some stage. if you don't have ZDT then you're going to lose productivity from your gear. your key is a wearable item, it is going to fault. you will have to buy a replacement and you with have to transfer authorisations. it is going to cost you. you might be ok with that but I'm not.
and I don't want to pay 'insurance' for someone elses protection.
you can keep arguing for your personal right to do so but i'd rather have the option to not do so if its all ok with you.


but its technical support for something that is nothing to do with better sound. its an incontinence as it is, and now its a financial burdon. once again, you feel free to keep arguing for your right to pay for these inconveniences but I'd rather the software I've already paid a substantival amount of money for works as is, with the minimum amount of fuss and bother, and no hidden and extra costs. this stuff isn't cheap in the first place as you're well aware.

thats a good point about third party software protection, all my iloks authorisations are for things I got off digi so it doesn't really apply to me, but yes, what about those other parties. perhaps digi who provides one platform can collect fees from them for protecting their rights, but I still don't think its my responsibility.

[QUOTE]

its an ethical issue as much as an expense issue, but the expense isn't a couple of bucks, and it is on going. its also a procedural issue. the procedures in place do not favour the client, they favour ilok, and digi and 3rd parties get to fob their responsibilities off onto someone else.

how so? I've only got one rig and I do live location recordings all at a very affordable rate of course, my ilok gets wear and tear from it. I don't deny you your right to move from studio to studio but if you think we should maintain the present ilok system just so you can do something which is a specialist need thing then thats a bit narrow visioned.

I am really concerned, and so are a lot of other people, but I'm not raising these issues to be a pain, I'm trying to push for a better system, and if I don't mention it and you keep yelling me down then we're not going to get a system that does all the things you want and all the things I need.
I could enclose my ilok in a vacuum sealed shielded from sunlight, sterile environment too, then it would be really safe, part from damage from accidental crushing, man, so many things to worry about. there are lots of things to do to protect the ilok, like not putting it in your pocket like its another key even though it looks like one, but it still ignores the basic issue, who is ilok protection, who is it for. not me. its for software companies. They've devised a system that does stuff for them, and the upkeep and safety and maintenance onus is on us. I'm raising this glaring issue so it can be contemplated and maybe addressed.

mmmmmmmgggg
but a microphone does something for you, ilok does something for someone else. why is that so difficult to grasp.

well thats a good solution then isn't it, why don't I just drive a taxi or something.
I'm opposed to ilok, not the software it protects, a lot of which is digi stuff, on the platform I use.
my challenge response software is more transparent. it may not provide as greater protection as ilok to the software developers but its more transparent to me the guy who actually paid for this stuff.
why not give us the option. u can either use ilok or another type of protection.
then you'd be happy and i'd be happy and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

The NI and Spectrasonics systems allow you to have multiple computers authorized (two at a time for NI, and unlimited for Spectrasonics). I can travel with that software and have absolutely NO fear of it being lost or stolen.

As a matter of fact, I just replaced my system drive and did a complete re-installation of everything I own. It was a piece of cake. I take it you've never used the Spectrasonics system. I've spent far less time fooling around with that then I've spent maintaining my iLok.

That's nice in theory, but I really wonder how universally applicable this is. If somebody walks into my studio and says "Stand aside while I do a big pile of software installations on your system!" I'll tackle them before their fingers touch the keyboard. Anybody that's concerned about system stability needs to be careful about what's being installed in their system.

We're also at a point where some of these installations (especially sample libraries) can take a VERY long time, especially with data decompression. Ever install the VSL Pro Edition? Optimally, lots of these things need to be installed on faster internal drives rather than FW, so traveling with a FW drive isn't necessarily practical. If you're a person needing to dealing with a mega installation, traveling with your system is probably the best solution.

Lee Blaske

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

That's nice in theory, but I really wonder how universally applicable this is. If somebody walks into my studio and says "Stand aside while I do a big pile of software installations on your system!" I'll tackle them before their fingers touch the keyboard. Anybody that's concerned about system stability needs to be careful about what's being installed in their system.
Lee Blaske

[/QUOTE]

thats a good point lee.
its not just the key, you have to take installer discs for all of this stuff, and then you have to deal with clashes and crashes. and then when you go the person who's rig you used has to weed out all those plugs that no longer have authorisation.
I remember a couple of demos I installed and when the time period had expired they created problems.

ilok isn't quite as care free international traveller without luggage as you make it out to be jeremy. its a little in that direction, but there's more to it than that.
perhaps a system where you got your authorisations off the net would be just as simple, then you wouldn't even have to have that troublesome heavy key in its climate conrolled, sealed for sterility, reinforced concrete container,

personally I don't want any of those features, I just want my one rig to run free and transparent, and it is running now, after that little glitch with the dead connection, which opened my eyes to how fragile it was. I'm speaking up now in the hopes that I don't have to find out again.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

I haven't done it, but isn't it possible to install all your software and preferences onto a bootable firewire drive which you take to other studios? You re-boot with your drive and it is as if you are on your own rig.

Maybe not as portable as an iLok, but way more complete.

At least in theory...

Best....H

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

>>ilok isn't quite as care free international traveller without luggage as you make it out to be jeremy.

it really is.

try this:

upgrade your CPU to Apple's latest and greatest. You have a ton of ilok plugs, + many challenge response.

how long will you spend dealing with C/R? let's say 3 minutes each (in a perfect world, but we know that it will take AudioEase 24 hours to respond. Antares will only issue new responses during business hours, Spectrasonics has cut me off due to too many installs, so i have to beg each time now (x 3 plugins), etc...

I have 41 assets on my ilok. at 3 minutes each (conservative) that's HOURS.

when I migrated to my new G5, moving the iLok took about 8 seconds.

NOW - here's the fun part. You wish to have a clone of your boot partition for testing new software versions before you go live with clients... ok, CCC it... but all your C/R auths need to be re-done on the clone boot drive. iLok is done.

Shall I continue? You are asked to mix a tune at a friend's studio. You tell them to download your favorite suite of plugs that they don't own... you bring iLok, and that's that.

Lee's fear about installing plugs doesn't hold up under OSX, since there's only one place for it. Easy to remove.

Why would I want my auths on a HARD DRIVE that is sure to crash eventually?

I own a bunch of C/R software, but as soon as the vendors allow iLok, I will move my auths there.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

That's great, but you're not ready to do anything yet. Next, you've got to install all the software and research the latest versions. Most likely, you'll have to buy some upgrades, then wait for the company to send you the upgrade iLok keys, or horse around having them dump assets onto your iLok account. Then you've got to transfer them to you iLok. If you installed via card/keys, you need to go back and synchronize the iLok. If you've got Waves stuff, the authorization procedure is different. Things can get screwed up, and some of the update dances are convoluted. iLok is not god's gift to the daw world. iLok can be a PITA in its own special way. I've frittered away a lot of time with the two I have (initially, because of a problem with iLok software that wouldn't allow me to access the iLok account on my daw computer).

Sure, installing C/R software takes time, but getting iLok stuff installed and running is also time consuming.

What if they're using an older version of a plug-in or plug-in suite? For instance, say they're on Waves 4.0, and your sessions are 5.0? Do you want them do replace all their Waves stuff with 5.0? That calls for moving lots of stuff around. What if you're on Waves 4.0 and they've installed 5.0? Do you want them to downgrade? AutoTune is supposedly going to by iLok compatible soon, too. There's another big opportunity for compatibility problems. Also, AutoTune installs stuff in multiple locations. Any studio allowing clients to drastically alter the software on their system disk had better take careful notes so they can restore everything to the way it was.

The vintage of the Digidesign system at the host studio, along with the computer hardware and OS being used is also going to have an impact on the portability of a project and plug-ins. If the host studio doesn't have Accel, your Accel only plug-ins will not work.

If any content oriented plug-ins move to iLok, files will almost certainly be installed in multiple locations.

Lee Blaske

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

jeremy,

its great that you're having a wonderful time with your rig and ilok.
but guess what, I'm not.
why is that of personal offence to you that I speak of it?
why do you insist on telling me I'm having a good time and everything is fine when I'm not and it is not?
what's it to you personally that I don't like ilok?
I'm just looking for a solution to my issues, why is that a problem for you?

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay for
 

My position on the whole software protection scheme is as follows.

1. First, and foremost. When you buy software and become the legitimate owner (or user) then it is quite clearly understood in the agreement that from that moment on you are allowed to use that software permanently. To the best of my knowledge software may have bugs, but does not break down (like say a car, a tv, a preamp, a microphone, a cable, etc, etc, ...). This is inherent to software, maybe the computer you are running it on breaks down or the OS gets upgraded but software itself is unable to break down because it is basically nothing more than the information of a precise sequence of zeros and ones. Whereas it is also inherent to software that it may have bugs impairing certain, usually minor, aspects of it, I have however never known of a potential bug which suddenly pops up and says you are no longer allowed to use the software. This however is what a mishap in the protection scheme will do, it will render your legitimately bought software totally useless and suddenly give you the status of a non-legitimate pirate. This is totally unacceptable and a clear breach of the agreement. Hence, if the software companies have a case in that they must somehow protect their investment - and I believe they do - then there is also a case for the buyer who demands that whatever the protection is it should not impair the agreement of being able to use the software permanently. Therefore these companies must provide a system which is as failsafe as technically possible. At the moment, in my opinion, this is not the case - not only with ilok though - there are many stories of clients having had to wait for days or even weeks to get their problems solved.

2. Second. Whether you are paying more for the above failsafe system when buying the software is something you wouldn't know but can guess to be the case (of course). I would however have no problem with that and it would not prevent me from buying the software. This should however be a one-time thing. It should not be compared to insurance which you have to pay for yearly. You pay insurance for things which can happen. A breakdown of software cannot happen so I should not have to pay insurance for that! So, if ZDT works sufficiently well, I would have no problem with it provided it were a one-time fee. I would not even mind having to pay for the ilok (the object) when it needs to be replaced. However, the failsafe system should be a one-time fee, not yearly, and certainly not to be renewed after a mishap on top of that. The agreement in the software contract says permanent use, not for just a year.

Cheers, Bob.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay for
 

I have only one opinion. I can put my ilok after a session into my pocket and go to a strip club. Can't we all just get along and meet at the Candy Cat with our Iloks in hand?

Later

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay for
 

LOL. No, it appears some folks want to stand in the line outside the club while they wait for someone to email back their challenge response code...

I find it hard to believe that busy engineers on a deadline prefer challenge response to Ilok. Has anyone here ever run a DAW with twenty or thirty challenge response plugins on it? It is a huge headache. I know one studio that still hasn't managed to get all their old OS 9 plugins authorized under OS X because they lost pieces of paper and stuff. With the Ilok that just doesn't happen. And if the hard drive or motherboard fails, you are still screwed with challenge response anyway, but at least with Ilok you have the option to insure yourself against this.

If all my plugins were challenge response and I had a hardware failure and had to reauthorize, it would take me days to get back up and running and I would be out nearly a thousand dollars not to mention dealing with angry clients. If I lose hardware now, then I can worry about fixing the hardware and not worry about the plugins. If my system drive died right now I would be out two hours max - a drive to CompUSA and an hour to restore my backup.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

if you're seriously carrying your ilok around in your pocket you won't be doing it for long. well not and still have it work. candy and cinnamon will be working their lapdance routine on you and they'll snap it , that's if you didn't snap it yourself when you got in the car to drive there.
not that challenge response is necessarily better or worse, but you enter it once and it keeps going. if your hard drive fails then you go to the cupboard where you store all your important pieces of paper, and maybe even your old ilok, and you re enter the things in again, once.
oh please, you only do it once when you set up your system and you never see it again, till your system dies and you have to rebuild. if you're smart you did a disc image and you're up in 10 mins, and if you're a different kind of smart you keep all the codes somewhere, or a couple of somewheres and you enter them in again after you've sorted out all the other issues with a crashed drive.
well that's a pretty stupid argument isn't it. if they lost their challenge response codes, who's to say their not going to lose their iloks, or their heads if they're not screwed on properly.
hell you can write the challenge response codes on another piece of paper and store em with other valuable things like your passport. That argument really doesn't wash.
Huh? are you saying ilok automatically updates your authorisations between upgrades for free, don't think so, if its an upgraded version you're going to be stung for upgrade fees and your old key authorisation will need upgrading too. you're still dealing with the same sort of issues which ever way you go.
and I'm not saying challenge response is wonderful, but it certainly doesn't wear out or break in my pocket while I'm relaxing with candy and cinnamon.
What are you talking about?? days? it doesn't take days to get your little stake of cards and type the response codes in once on the first start up. it takes minutes. where do you get this days thing from, are you a slow typist or something, if you drive goes down and you have a disc image back up you're down for mins and all your challenge responses are intact, you don't have to re enter them, you're seriously fiddling with the election results there if you're saying days to put in a few codes, even if you owned all the plugins available in the world, even the [bleep] ones like .... nah, I won't go there

seriously though, if your drive goes down, (and that's a pretty serious thing that you'd hope wouldn't happen often) entering a few codes is the least of your worries. with ilok you have the added worry of the damn key going down at any time, and if you've read the rest of the comments here you see that's highly likely, especially with bad practices like carrying it around in your pocket, and friends like candy and cinnamon.

But this post wasn't about wishing for the good old days of challenge response its about raising serious issues to do with ilok, and the costs to the customer involved in keeping it running, and keeping it from breaking.
for the standard user who runs their own studio and isn't sleeping round with multiple studio partners the whole take your key with you isn't an advantage or an issue. running their rig transparently is.
if you're drive dies a few challenge responses are the least of your worries, and for its limited benefit of portablity ilok certainly adds a few negatives into the equation. negatives that weren't there before.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

well at least this isn't a heated issue....i say again that ilok is ok because we have invested lots of cash in plugs and hardware and the people that make that stuff need to be paid. i wish that they had a registered user quick fix rental scheme that could be verified later against a rental price when the sh%t fails. that would be easy peasy and if someone wanted to buy a second ilok then they could download backups to that and send in the old [bleep] ilok and get a new one within a specified time. please tell me why this is a crappy idea.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

I'm liking that idea. so your saying they know what plugins we've got. if ilok goes dead as it will we can instantaneously get the second ilok happening and we have to return the dead ilok with in an alloted period of time.
what stops us keeping the dead ilok? maybe the new ilok has to be reconfirmed wih in 4 weeks of the keys die. probably another window for error there but that would stop people running 2 rigs of plugs for the price of one.

I would have to ask for the system to be free to users though, otherwise we're in the same situation of being suseptable to profiteering by thrid party police. I'm happy to help protect the rights of the software authors but I don't want to be paying for it, and certianly not at inflated third party rates.

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

If I get a fault I'll probably just make do with the stock plugins until my iLok is fixed. If there are some plugins I really need, I'll contact the individual manufacturers directly to see if they can help me out in the meantime. My studio is not a commercial studio, though, so it probably wouldn't be a big issue. If I ever am in a position where I know I'm going to have a deadline that I absolutely must meet, or if I ever open my studio up commercially, I'll happily pay for ZDT (okay, maybe not "happily", but I certainly won't complain about it). I just wish I had that option for the computer itself, my HD cards, my interfaces...

Again, I haven't paid a cent directly to iLok, but even if I do eventually pay for ZDT, or for a spare iLok, I still won't feel like I've been "squeezed" by them. I've certainly given a whole lot more money to Digi, for example, and while I don't feel "squeezed" by them (as many do) I'd put them on my list before iLok...

I'm not convinced that I will. Of course, I don't know that, but I am quite certain that not every iLok will fail.

You're not paying 'insurance' for someone else's protection...whether you have ZDT or not "their" property is protected, and your plugins will be protected as well...you're just paying a little (and again, considering the cost of an HD system and even each plugin, I do mean a little) extra for the process to be expedited. And as I mentioned, there are plugins you can buy that don't require the iLok if you really feel that strongly about it.

Exactly, I'm well aware of how expensive it is, which is why I'm surprised that you feel like you're being "squeezed"...like this optional cost is a "burden"...when you've spent so much money on the system itself.

How do you feel about Apple Care? That's some comparatively expensive "insurance" for your computer...another device that has nothing to do with better sound...that's optional as well. Personally I've opted not to buy it, but I don't hold it against Apple that they offer it and I can see where I'd want to take advantage of it.







Quote:

I'm sure our iLoks are identical. And now you're making it sound like you're one of the elite you were just talking about...sounds like you do take advantage of its other features.


how so? I've only got one rig and I do live location recordings all at a very affordable rate of course, my ilok gets wear and tear from it. I don't deny you your right to move from studio to studio but if you think we should maintain the present ilok system just so you can do something which is a specialist need thing then thats a bit narrow visioned.

I don't have a problem with you raising the issue. I think that's what this forum is for. But I also feel like I should put my opinion out there as well, which is that despite the fact that it's not perfect, I feel like the iLok is by far the best copy protection scheme I've come across. I would take it over any challenge/response protection I've seen any day. Of course I wouldn't mind if they came out with someone better.

Because the iLok does something for me, and because it's not hard to take good care of.

I was just suggesting that if you are so opposed to the iLok, you should support the companies that don't require it, like Waves and Antares (who are most likely two of the most popular plugin companies out there). Whether you choose to drive a taxi or not is entirely up to you.

I would be fine if everyone offered both. But obviously, not all the software developers feel that same way, and I certainly don't disagree with them using the most secure protection available to them. I'd much rather suffer the minor inconvenience of having a key attached to my computer than have them either have to raise their prices or go out of business due to their plugins being stolen. It was a huge issue with Mix systems, which still blows my mind.

So how does Spectrasonics stop you from giving your plugins to all of your friends? (I'm not saying you'd do that, just wondering if they have anything in place to stop that from happening.)

No, I don't think it's a stupid argument. Sure, you should take good care of your codes, but you don't use them every day like you do an iLok.

I have had a drive go down, and that does happen often. It's a relatively fragile thing with delicate moving parts. Sure, entering codes wasn't at the top of my list of worries, but I wasn't worried about the iLok at all.

And I still don't think that having an iLok go down is "highly likely"...sure, it happens, and of course when it does we hear about it, but there are still plenty of iLoks out there that haven't failed. Of course, if you carry it around in your pocket and take it everywhere you go, your chances of problems increase, and I'm sure that if you do a lot of mobile recording, your chances increase as well. If I were to do mobile recording, though, I'd certainly take some extra precautions...having touch road cases built, insurance for all of my hardware, things like that. An extra $40 for a spare iLok and an extra $25 to cover me in case the iLok did have a problem would be the least of my worries.

It would never be free to users. We'd pay for it one way or another. I still can't for the life of me see how the rates we pay...as an option...are "inflated". Who knows how much we're really paying? How much of the cost of our systems and software goes to copy protection as well?

-Duardo

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

[/QUOTE]

That sounds like a highly unsatisfactory solution but if it pleases you, fine, but I'm sure you can see how it isn't satisfactory to people who might earn their living from this stuff.

its a device that relies on mechanical properties. ie it insets into a usb port. it is subject to direct wear and tear. its pure physics.
challenge response is software based. no physical parts, just bits. different kind of problems but not physical.


[/QUOTE]

Exactly, I'm well aware of how expensive it is, which is why I'm surprised that you feel like you're being "squeezed"...like this optional cost is a "burden"...when you've spent so much money on the system itself.

[/QUOTE]

as I stated before, its part principle.
is it ok if i rob you for a couple of bucks, its only a little amount of money. surely you don't mind.


Completely different. apple care is insurance for a piece of hardware that stands alone. ie your computer. you get one year warentee when you by it, if you want to extend that warentee then you pay. how is this the same as paying for the protection against piracy for some other party. apple care directly benefits you, copy protection benefits someone else. why is this so difficult to grasp for you?

What does it do for you. how do you benefit from what iloks main function is? to stop people from illegally copying and using software


your point being? if you don't see it everyday it might be easier to not treat with care?
have you checked on your birth certificate and passport lately, they might have gone missing.


I've never been asked to pay $25 for asking a question about a product I paid full price for before, If you're in business you'd get that the more you go back down the supply chain the cheaper things get. ie if you buy things retail it cost so much, wholesale, a lot less, direct from the manufacturer, cheaper still. each level you go back 'cares' more about the product and the customer than the spotty teenager at the service desk getting paid minimum wage.

the further customer support gets from the hands of digi design the less vested interest the people supplying it have in the product or customer satisfaction.
I'd say fleecing $25 a question is less interest in customer satisfaction.

-Duardo

[/QUOTE]

Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f
 

Of course I can see that. And as I said, if I were in a position where I might earn a living from this stuff, I would happily pay the $25 annual fee for ZDT.

I know what an iLok is. I just don't believe that every single iLok out there will fail. But if mine does, I'll be sure to let you know.

It's not the same. You're not being robbed. You don't have to pay it.

Because you're not paying for copy protection. You're paying insurance for expedited service if a mechanical device fails. If all you want the iLok to do is serve as a copy protection device, just plug it in and leave it. You don't have to pay for ZDT.

For me, the computer does not stand alone. I bought it as a (relatively small) part of my Pro Tools system. It doesn't have anything to do with better sound, which was one of your problems with ZDT and the iLok.

Aside from allowing me to move my plugins around with me as I travel to studios in exotic locations around the world, it is the most hassle-free copy protection scheme I've ever used, and I've used software that employs various dongle-, disk-, and challenge/response-based schemes. I realize in a perfect world copy protection wouldn't be necessary, but it is, and the iLok is the one that works for me the best, even aside from giving me the ability to move my plugins around...which to me is the biggest plus. And I do have my iLoks in a hub, so when I move it from one computer to the other, I'm not unplugging the iLoks themselves.

Exactly.

No, I haven't, but I do know where they are. I wasn't saying that it's hard to keep track of important papers...just that it's understandable why someone could lose codes and not lose their iLok, and that I don't agree that it's a "stupid argument".

I haven't either, and from what I understand, Pace has answered plenty of questions for people without charging that fee. Maybe it's just there to stop people from asking frivolous questions, I don't know. But if you paid "full price" (not sure what that means) for your Pro Tools system, or your Mac, you'll have to pay to get them to answer any questions after a year for the Pro Tools system or ninety days for the Mac. It's not unheard of.

Don't get me wrong, I wish they didn't have that stipulation there either. It seems to do nothing but cause people stress. But it is reasonable and normal.

I know, but it's only there to protect other peoples' property...

I certainly can see where you're coming from and why you're not happy with the situation. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm just trying to explain why I feel the way I do about it.

-Duardo