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Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
last update: Oct 15, 2006
PT TDM for XP InfoCenter >>> Pre-Built Systems ===================== So...this is where pre-built computer systems will be. If anyone has experience with a place, or places, that do a full setup deal...like, call them up, they listen to your needs, and put together a system for you, and then come out and install and all- please! Let us know; someone out there might be interested. ------------------------------------------------------- >>> DIY Systems and Parts ========================= In this section, various pieces will be listed; known, working combinations of these pieces would be the safest path to follow. If you dare combine the untried, please report your findings! Known working AND non-working are valuable!!! * Motherboards * First up, old faitful. Pentium 4 board with Intel 875P chipset. A socket 478 board, 800FSB, runs up through Prescott. Combined with certain other parts, this is a guaranteed winner. However, it is getting a bit "long in the tooth," and is about due for a successor. New Egg isnt carrying these anymore. Update June 2006: Quadzilla is here!!! Yep, just scroll down to the end of the "DIY Systems & Parts" section here for a full write up on the system. (cut n paste from Shane's posting) Update Oct 2006: I am still waiting for a completely stable and supported Intel Core 2 Duo and/or Woodcrest based system with PCI/PCI-X slots to be spec'd out, complete with experience/build notes. As of this month, Digi has still not released PCIe versions for XP. As such, no PCIe based systems are listed here yet. As soon as any of this changes, and STABLE systems exist, I will update. Part two of Oct 2006 update: The ASUS P4C80-E Deluxe appears to be very long in the tooth, and I have reports of it being difficult to find new boards. So, if anyone has a substitute- PLS!!! Let me know, and I will list it! Even so, I think a biggie is finding a replacement fuelled by a Core 2 Duo, or a pair of Woodcrest chips. Keep in mind: to use 2 cpu's, you must use XP Pro!!! (end Oct 2006 update) Nikki's Pick: ASUS P4C800-E (deluxe) Quick note on CPU's: Most users will simply figure the amount of power, upgrade flexability (future proofing), and useability with the planned Digidesign (and certain 3rd party) components. CPU type is usually part of this, but not the primary consideration. In other words: most users do not sit at home (or in the office), and decide, "I will build a system based around a 3.0G Prescott, with no desire to ever change that..." As such, there is no dedicated section to processors (CPU). However! Here are some notes: Prescott Pentium 4 CPU's are known to run HOT. Not too terribly hot when compared to certain AMD's. But, they are notoriously hot compared to the rest of the P4 range. * Power Supplies * Why second? Simple: Those Digi TDM/HD cards LOVE power. They REQUIRE proper powering via the PCI(-E,e,-X) buss, or rail. Your power supply should be taken VERY seriously, especially if you are planning to keep your hard drives inside the same case (internal drives). Stick to brand-name Power Supplies! Antec, Enermax, etc. And I would suggest going 480watt or higher, period. A 550watt PS (power supply) may seem like overkill, but with 3 hard drives and an HD3 Accel system running off one power supply will require only the best. Nikki's Pick: Antec TruePower 550. * Hard Drives * This is an area that takes alot of thought. Probably more than any other component. With an unlimited budget, and if working with video, tons of tracks and edits (heavy Post for instance), SCSI might still be the solution. HOWEVER! SATA has come a long way, and might just suit your needs. I am unfamiliar with fibre drives and other, similar solutions...please- if someone would like to "school me" or simply provide a quick-n-down-n-dirty on them, and what to pick, feel free! I imagine in a fibre drive situation with networking and such, there would be a team involved, and this thread would be moot. No? SATA drives are cuttin' it...big time! For the casual, or home/project user, one or two internal SATA drives would do it easily. I like the Seagate drives: quiet, and nice warranty. Western Digital has the Raptor 10K RPM drives, which are nice if you want that quicker response, and need to get that little extra performance. Personally, I do not see a huge difference between a Raptor 10K and a well done 7200RPM drive. For the more demanding user, external, racked SATA is the way to go. Expensive? You betcha! The rack enclosure alone could run several hundred dollars, or over a thousand. Some motherboards (server type) come with the kit to run the internal connectors (on the motherboard) as external. Alternately, you could opt for a PCI card. RAID is up in the air still I believe. [ Note from Digidesign: RAID configurations are not supported in any way, shape or form.] * RAM * Me-mories...in the corner of my mind... Seems simple..but it isn't that simple. Certain motherboards prefer certain brands of memory. And certain types of memory. If using the ASUS P4C800-E (deluxe), I would suggest Kingston Hyper-X DDR3200 or 3500 RAM. I would suggest at least 1G of RAM. Most boards today will be happier running pairs of "matched" RAM. That means, buy your RAM in pairs. For 1G, that means grabbing two 512M sticks. I prefer running 2G, via four 512M sticks. Since Win XP is a 32-bit operating system, we are limited to 4G of physical RAM access. However...XP is, uhh, incapable? To be safe, and not have to perform little tricks and such, stick with 2G. If you want to dig into tweaks and such, then be my guest and go for more RAM! Personally, I would wait for Microsoft to fix XP (hehehe...yeah, right), or simply wait for Vista (or whatever the next MS 64-bit OS will be). Just remember: the applications will need updating, and so will the hardware drivers. * Video Card * * Cases * * Cooling * * Removable Media * Yep, DVD drives, firewire, USB, USB2...all those fun, cantankerous dangly-doos. * And more... * Expansion CHassis, Mice, keyboards, and more. QUADZILLA!!! >>> This is a copy 'n' paste from one of Shane's posts in the LE section. He (and others) have tested this particular system with LE, MP, and HD1/HD2 (Accel) systems (given the motherboard architecture, PCI slot placement, and success with HD1 and HD2 systems, an HD3 (Accel) should be fine as well; please keep in mind this is not capable of supporting the PCIe versions of the HD systems!!!). So far, it is reported as being 100% solid and hassle-free. Digidesign has NOT qualified it as of June, 2006. However, if you follow the instructions and parts below, altering only the CPU to fit your financial and computing needs, you should be A-OK. ================================= Shan's Quad: Windows XP Pro (pls note: you must use XP Pro to have access to BOTH cpu's; while XP Home will see two cores on the first cpu, it will not see BOTH cpu's no matter what you try...XP Pro ONLY!!!) -Tyan Tiger K8WE (S2877ANRF) Motherboard - Detailed specs here. (Purchased from Antares Digital) -Two Opteron 265 Dual-Core CPUs -4G of Corsair CM72SD1024RLP-3200 (1024MB Registered DDR400, 2 Ranks) -Two ASUS EN6600/TD/256 Video card(I needed two for some post work but currently only use one in my system) -Western Digital SATA 36G Raptor hard drive -Western Digital SATA 74G Raptor hard drive -Lite-On DVDRW SHW-1635S -OCZ Powerstream 520W Power supply -A very well ventilated generic case(I have a machine room so noise is not a problem) -Digi 002 Rack with PT LE 7.1cs6. Very stable with no issues other than the odd plug-in when PT LE 7 was first released. Dverb test gives me 134 Dverbs with the ability to play/stop and record on all 32 tracks in a 24bit/48K session and a hardware buffer of 1024. My choice for the Tyan motherboard was because it is loaded with PCI slots which I plan to use for HD-1, UAD-1 and Powercore cards(I have yet to do this so I cannot confirm if these cards will work without problems yet) There are two PCIe slots and 4 PCI slots. **How to attach the firewire connector on this board** If you do not attach this correctly, you WILL fry your 002 motherboard and any other firewire devices attached. Triple check this connection. How to build the Tyan Quadzilla: Since my system has been rock solid stable, I thought I would share with everyone how I set it up including the minor tweaks I did. I wont go into exact detail such as how to get into the BIOS or how to partition a drive etc, so you will still need some basic computer knowledge as some of my steps will be general. Part 1: Setting up the mother board. The obvious I wont include here. Just the common email questions I get. - Put your 4G of ram into CPU1 DIMM0, CPU1 DIMM1 and CPU2 DIMM0, CPU2 DIMM1. - Graphics card goes into PCI Express x16 (SLOT 5) - System drive into SATAII 0 and Audio drive into SATAII 1. - **Attach the firewire connector like this** This is VERY important. Triple check this connection. I have done tests using the onboard firewire and my FireWire 800 PCI-32T. There was no difference in performance. I have been using the onboard firewire for months with no issues. - No jumper settings changed. - Attach all other items such as CPUs, Front panel USB connectors, fans, PSU etc Part 2: BIOS(V1.03) Settings. These are the BIOS(Version 1.03) settings I did: In the BIOS go to: Main > Installed O/S > [WinXP Prof] Advanced > Integrated Devices > Audio Codec: [Disabled] Advanced > NV RAID Configuration > [Disabled] Advanced > PCI Configuration > Onboard Device Control > IEEE1394 control > [Enabled] (This one doesnt seem to matter too much if you are using a PCI Firewire card. If you leave it enabled you will have access to both. I have used both the onboard Firewire and my PCI SIIG Firewire and both get the same Dverb test) Advanced > IDE Configuration > (This is where you will have to set up what is used on your IDE cables. It should make sense) Advanced > Floppy Configuration > Legacy Diskette A: [Disabled] Advanced > Floppy Configuration > Legacy Diskette B: [Disabled] Advanced > I/O Device Configuration > Serial port A: [Disabled] Advanced > I/O Device Configuration > Serial port B: [Disabled] Advanced > I/O Device Configuration > Parallel port: [Disabled] Advanced > I/O Device Configuration > Floppy disk controller: [Disabled] Advanced > IntruderSupport [Disabled] Boot > QuickBoot Mode: [Enabled] Boot > POST errors: [Enabled] (Keep this on for now just in case) Boot > Boot Device Priority > (This should make sense. You'll have to arrange all this.) Power > AMD PowerNow [Disabled] F10(Save and Exit) Part 3: XP Pro Settings. - Install XP Pro with Service Pack 2 only and nothing else. - Partition your C drive. 15-20G will be fine for XP, PT LE and plug-ins etc. The remainder will be used for storage such as drive images, install apps, Everest, san2005 etc. On my system I made the C drive 15G and the rest is for storage in which I called the drive partition "Storage". - Install True Image. - Using True Image, immediately make a disk image of your C drive and store it on your Storage partition in a folder called 'Restoration Images'. Call the restoration file "XP Only" or something similar. You now have a drive image of XP without any drivers or other software. This will save you many hours and even days if you ever have to trouble shoot. Trust me. Been there, done that. Shane ================================= So there you have it! A time tested and approved ASUS, single/single system, and the wicked power of a Tyan powered, unapproved (yet!) dual/dual monster, known as Quadzilla. ------------------------------------------------------- >>> Laptops ============== Can TDM be completely portable? YES!!! ------------------------------------------------------- Hi folks! I will do exactly as the Win LE forum has: This first post will have constant editing with additions and corrections for systems for us Win HD/TDM users. Edits (additions and corrections) will be based upon not just my own experience, but rather it will be based upon you guys' input, JUST like the Win LE forum section. I will be welcoming emails with user experiences and details on your systems; pros, cons, boons, shortcomings; would love HOW you use your system as well. Give me a little patience though please- like you guys, I too am very busy most of the time. Thx!!! |
Re: Best SYstems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Hi Nikki & all,
As you can see from my system components below I am running a HD4, but usually HD3 with a 192i/o. The fourth card just seems to mostly make the system unstable so I have a card sitting doing nothing at the moment which is frustrating. As far as the systen goes, as a HD3 it is extremely stable especially in the Audio department. Doing fantastic mixes with heaps of DSP to spare. Love the McDSP stuff and SMACK! Draw backs are with the windows inability to address more than 3 gig ram total (including Virtual). I use BFD extensively with Spectronics RMX and Essential Strings, XPAND, Sampletank 2.1, Virtual Guitar 2 and lots of other virtual plugs thanks to the FXpansion VST to RTAS wrapper 2.0. but I quickly run out of useable ram. Especially with some of the fantastic drum sounds from the BFD deluxe series. So this system runs fantastic as a HD3, and the Ram issues means I have to commit sounds to Hard drive like we used to in the old Analog days, so I am very happy but am looking forward to Windows 64 bit (Vista) where the Ram will no longer be an issue and the Audio and virtual instruments will be seamless. (fingers crossed) Thanks Nikki and Digi for starting this Sticky. I am sure it will help answer recouring questions for us XP TDM users. Although I must say we don't have that much to whinge about from Digi IMHO. Best, Big D (Duncan) MY SYSTEM * Motherboards * ASUS A8V Deluxe Slot 1 AGP Video Card Slot 2 HD ACCEL CARD Slot 3 HD ACCEL Card Slot 4 HD Core Card * CPU * AMD64 X2 4400+ * Power Supplies * Antec TruePower 550. * Hard Drives * ATA 1 Primary:- Western Digital 200 ATA ATA 2 Primary:- LG DVD RW SATA Bus 1:- Western Digital 200 SATA SATA Bus 2:- Western Digital 200 SATA Raid 1 0+1:- Western Digital 250 SATA Raid 2 0+1:- Western Digital 250 SATA * RAM * 2 gig GEIL Ram i.e 4x512 sticks of DDR400 * Video Card * Dual Head 9250 * Cases * Antec 4U rackmount Case * Cooling * 4 Extra quiet Fans (forget Brand will look up) * Removable Media * 2 x Western Digital 200ata in ICE CUBE firewire/USB Cases * Extras * Microsoft PS2 Keyboard Microsoft USB Mouse Powered USB HUB for 2 x ILOK & 1 Stienberg Dongle and mouse * Monitors * 2 x 17" BENQ LCD Screens 1 x 26" Philips HD TV with ANALOG, DVI, SVIDEO and HDMI inputs for Video editing and capturing from JVC HDV camera. |
Re: Best SYstems and Components for Win HD/TDM
last update: Oct 15, 2006
PT TDM for XP InfoCenter <<< Pre-Built Systems >>> ===================== So...this is where pre-built computer systems will be. If anyone has experience with a place, or places, that do a full setup deal...like, call them up, they listen to your needs, and put together a system for you, and then come out and install and all- please! Let us know; someone out there might be interested. ------------------------------------------------------- <<< DIY Systems and Parts >>> ========================= In this section, various pieces will be listed; known, working combinations of these pieces would be the safest path to follow. If you dare combine the untried, please report your findings! Known working AND non-working are valuable!!! * Motherboards * First up, old faitful. Pentium 4 board with Intel 875P chipset. A socket 478 board, 800FSB, runs up through Prescott. Combined with certain other parts, this is a guaranteed winner. However, it is getting a bit "long in the tooth," and is about due for a successor. New Egg isnt carrying these anymore. Update June 2006: Quadzilla is here!!! Yep, just scroll down to the end of the "DIY Systems & Parts" section here for a full write up on the system. (cut n paste from Shane's posting) Update Oct 2006: I am still waiting for a completely stable and supported Intel Core 2 Duo and/or Woodcrest based system with PCI/PCI-X slots to be spec'd out, complete with experience/build notes. As of this month, Digi has still not released PCIe versions for XP. As such, no PCIe based systems are listed here yet. As soon as any of this changes, and STABLE systems exist, I will update. Part two of Oct 2006 update: The ASUS P4C80-E Deluxe appears to be very long in the tooth, and I have reports of it being difficult to find new boards. So, if anyone has a substitute- PLS!!! Let me know, and I will list it! Even so, I think a biggie is finding a replacement fuelled by a Core 2 Duo, or a pair of Woodcrest chips. Keep in mind: to use 2 cpu's, you must use XP Pro!!! (end Oct 2006 update) Nikki's Pick: ASUS P4C800-E (deluxe) Quick note on CPU's: Most users will simply figure the amount of power, upgrade flexability (future proofing), and useability with the planned Digidesign (and certain 3rd party) components. CPU type is usually part of this, but not the primary consideration. In other words: most users do not sit at home (or in the office), and decide, "I will build a system based around a 3.0G Prescott, with no desire to ever change that..." As such, there is no dedicated section to processors (CPU). However! Here are some notes: Prescott Pentium 4 CPU's are known to run HOT. Not too terribly hot when compared to certain AMD's. But, they are notoriously hot compared to the rest of the P4 range. * Power Supplies * Why second? Simple: Those Digi TDM/HD cards LOVE power. They REQUIRE proper powering via the PCI(-E,e,-X) buss, or rail. Your power supply should be taken VERY seriously, especially if you are planning to keep your hard drives inside the same case (internal drives). Stick to brand-name Power Supplies! Antec, Enermax, etc. And I would suggest going 480watt or higher, period. A 550watt PS (power supply) may seem like overkill, but with 3 hard drives and an HD3 Accel system running off one power supply will require only the best. Nikki's Pick: Antec TruePower 550. * Hard Drives * This is an area that takes alot of thought. Probably more than any other component. With an unlimited budget, and if working with video, tons of tracks and edits (heavy Post for instance), SCSI might still be the solution. HOWEVER! SATA has come a long way, and might just suit your needs. I am unfamiliar with fibre drives and other, similar solutions...please- if someone would like to "school me" or simply provide a quick-n-down-n-dirty on them, and what to pick, feel free! I imagine in a fibre drive situation with networking and such, there would be a team involved, and this thread would be moot. No? SATA drives are cuttin' it...big time! For the casual, or home/project user, one or two internal SATA drives would do it easily. I like the Seagate drives: quiet, and nice warranty. Western Digital has the Raptor 10K RPM drives, which are nice if you want that quicker response, and need to get that little extra performance. Personally, I do not see a huge difference between a Raptor 10K and a well done 7200RPM drive. For the more demanding user, external, racked SATA is the way to go. Expensive? You betcha! The rack enclosure alone could run several hundred dollars, or over a thousand. Some motherboards (server type) come with the kit to run the internal connectors (on the motherboard) as external. Alternately, you could opt for a PCI card. RAID is up in the air still I believe. [ Note from Digidesign: RAID configurations are not supported in any way, shape or form.] * RAM * Me-mories...in the corner of my mind... Seems simple..but it isn't that simple. Certain motherboards prefer certain brands of memory. And certain types of memory. If using the ASUS P4C800-E (deluxe), I would suggest Kingston Hyper-X DDR3200 or 3500 RAM. I would suggest at least 1G of RAM. Most boards today will be happier running pairs of "matched" RAM. That means, buy your RAM in pairs. For 1G, that means grabbing two 512M sticks. I prefer running 2G, via four 512M sticks. Since Win XP is a 32-bit operating system, we are limited to 4G of physical RAM access. However...XP is, uhh, incapable? To be safe, and not have to perform little tricks and such, stick with 2G. If you want to dig into tweaks and such, then be my guest and go for more RAM! Personally, I would wait for Microsoft to fix XP (hehehe...yeah, right), or simply wait for Vista (or whatever the next MS 64-bit OS will be). Just remember: the applications will need updating, and so will the hardware drivers. * Video Card * * Cases * * Cooling * * Removable Media * Yep, DVD drives, firewire, USB, USB2...all those fun, cantankerous dangly-doos. * And more... * Expansion CHassis, Mice, keyboards, and more. >>> QUADZILLA!!! <<< This is a copy 'n' paste from one of Shane's posts in the LE section. He (and others) have tested this particular system with LE, MP, and HD1/HD2 (Accel) systems (given the motherboard architecture, PCI slot placement, and success with HD1 and HD2 systems, an HD3 (Accel) should be fine as well; please keep in mind this is not capable of supporting the PCIe versions of the HD systems!!!). So far, it is reported as being 100% solid and hassle-free. Digidesign has NOT qualified it as of June, 2006. However, if you follow the instructions and parts below, altering only the CPU to fit your financial and computing needs, you should be A-OK. ================================= Shan's Quad: Windows XP Pro (pls note: you must use XP Pro to have access to BOTH cpu's; while XP Home will see two cores on the first cpu, it will not see BOTH cpu's no matter what you try...XP Pro ONLY!!!) -Tyan Tiger K8WE (S2877ANRF) Motherboard - Detailed specs here. (Purchased from Antares Digital) -Two Opteron 265 Dual-Core CPUs -4G of Corsair CM72SD1024RLP-3200 (1024MB Registered DDR400, 2 Ranks) -Two ASUS EN6600/TD/256 Video card(I needed two for some post work but currently only use one in my system) -Western Digital SATA 36G Raptor hard drive -Western Digital SATA 74G Raptor hard drive -Lite-On DVDRW SHW-1635S -OCZ Powerstream 520W Power supply -A very well ventilated generic case(I have a machine room so noise is not a problem) -Digi 002 Rack with PT LE 7.1cs6. Very stable with no issues other than the odd plug-in when PT LE 7 was first released. Dverb test gives me 134 Dverbs with the ability to play/stop and record on all 32 tracks in a 24bit/48K session and a hardware buffer of 1024. My choice for the Tyan motherboard was because it is loaded with PCI slots which I plan to use for HD-1, UAD-1 and Powercore cards(I have yet to do this so I cannot confirm if these cards will work without problems yet) There are two PCIe slots and 4 PCI slots. **How to attach the firewire connector on this board** If you do not attach this correctly, you WILL fry your 002 motherboard and any other firewire devices attached. Triple check this connection. How to build the Tyan Quadzilla: Since my system has been rock solid stable, I thought I would share with everyone how I set it up including the minor tweaks I did. I wont go into exact detail such as how to get into the BIOS or how to partition a drive etc, so you will still need some basic computer knowledge as some of my steps will be general. Part 1: Setting up the mother board. The obvious I wont include here. Just the common email questions I get. - Put your 4G of ram into CPU1 DIMM0, CPU1 DIMM1 and CPU2 DIMM0, CPU2 DIMM1. - Graphics card goes into PCI Express x16 (SLOT 5) - System drive into SATAII 0 and Audio drive into SATAII 1. - **Attach the firewire connector like this** This is VERY important. Triple check this connection. I have done tests using the onboard firewire and my FireWire 800 PCI-32T. There was no difference in performance. I have been using the onboard firewire for months with no issues. - No jumper settings changed. - Attach all other items such as CPUs, Front panel USB connectors, fans, PSU etc Part 2: BIOS(V1.03) Settings. These are the BIOS(Version 1.03) settings I did: In the BIOS go to: Main > Installed O/S > [WinXP Prof] Advanced > Integrated Devices > Audio Codec: [Disabled] Advanced > NV RAID Configuration > [Disabled] Advanced > PCI Configuration > Onboard Device Control > IEEE1394 control > [Enabled] (This one doesnt seem to matter too much if you are using a PCI Firewire card. If you leave it enabled you will have access to both. I have used both the onboard Firewire and my PCI SIIG Firewire and both get the same Dverb test) Advanced > IDE Configuration > (This is where you will have to set up what is used on your IDE cables. It should make sense) Advanced > Floppy Configuration > Legacy Diskette A: [Disabled] Advanced > Floppy Configuration > Legacy Diskette B: [Disabled] Advanced > I/O Device Configuration > Serial port A: [Disabled] Advanced > I/O Device Configuration > Serial port B: [Disabled] Advanced > I/O Device Configuration > Parallel port: [Disabled] Advanced > I/O Device Configuration > Floppy disk controller: [Disabled] Advanced > IntruderSupport [Disabled] Boot > QuickBoot Mode: [Enabled] Boot > POST errors: [Enabled] (Keep this on for now just in case) Boot > Boot Device Priority > (This should make sense. You'll have to arrange all this.) Power > AMD PowerNow [Disabled] F10(Save and Exit) Part 3: XP Pro Settings. - Install XP Pro with Service Pack 2 only and nothing else. - Partition your C drive. 15-20G will be fine for XP, PT LE and plug-ins etc. The remainder will be used for storage such as drive images, install apps, Everest, san2005 etc. On my system I made the C drive 15G and the rest is for storage in which I called the drive partition "Storage". - Install True Image. - Using True Image, immediately make a disk image of your C drive and store it on your Storage partition in a folder called 'Restoration Images'. Call the restoration file "XP Only" or something similar. You now have a drive image of XP without any drivers or other software. This will save you many hours and even days if you ever have to trouble shoot. Trust me. Been there, done that. Shane ================================= So there you have it! A time tested and approved ASUS, single/single system, and the wicked power of a Tyan powered, unapproved (yet!) dual/dual monster, known as Quadzilla. ------------------------------------------------------- <<< Laptops >>> ============== Can TDM be completely portable? YES!!! ------------------------------------------------------- Hi folks! I will do exactly as the Win LE forum has: This first post will have constant editing with additions and corrections for systems for us Win HD/TDM users. Edits (additions and corrections) will be based upon not just my own experience, but rather it will be based upon you guys' input, JUST like the Win LE forum section. I will be welcoming emails with user experiences and details on your systems; pros, cons, boons, shortcomings; would love HOW you use your system as well. Give me a little patience though please- like you guys, I too am very busy most of the time. Thx!!! |
Re: Best SYstems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Sticky this please?
|
Re: Best SYstems and Components for Win HD/TDM
The system that I built for the studio I'm running but not yet operational. So far it's running fine but no heavy project yet, will be updating later..
* Tyan Thunder K8WE (S2895) NVIDIA Pro 2200 and 2050 + AMD 8131 chipset,dual Opteron support. * 1 AMD Opteron 265 installed, another one on order. * 4x512 DDR 400 ECC Registered DIMMs ( Corsair ), will be 8x512 when processor arrived. * 2 slot x16 PCI-E (SLI support), 1 XFX GeForce 6600 installed for Dual Mon LCD's. * PCIX x 64 bit 133 MHZ Pro Tools HD Accel Core Card. * PCIX x 64 Bit 100Mhz Pro Tools HD Accel Card. * PCIX x 64 Bit 100Mhz Empty ( Another HD Accel Card I hope ). * PCI x 32 Bit 33Mhz RME Digiface pci card. * 1 PATA port ( Seagate 80Gb for OS and appz ). * 4 SATA-II ports (3.0Gb/s) ( 2x 200Gb for data and transfers ). * 1 SCSI port (LSI U320 68 pin) ( 1 Seagate 73Gb 10K for audio ). * 2 GbE LAN ports, FireWire, audio, serial & parallel ports, 6 USB ports, and PS2 ports. * Tagan U480 power supply, will be replaced with U580 when my proc arrives. * CoolerMaster Stacker Casing SSI EEB footprint (12"x13"; 304.8mmx330.2mm). I think this system is similar to a branded system recommended by Digidesign, at least that's what my computer guy says ( he's built lots of workstations for editing and graphic designs ). Will update on problems as it goes which I hope won't be to much.... Thank's to Nikki and Digi, and yes plz..... make this a sticky. --------- Doddy |
Re: Best SYstems and Components for Win HD/TDM
How can both of you guys have Accel Core cards? I thought they were Mac and PCIe only?
Brandon |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
"Long in the tooth" is a good analogy. With processor and other technologies changing so quickly some solutions are becoming dated.
I've used the P4P800E Deluxe (Accel 2 only) and the P5P800SE boards with HD systems. Some great suggestions/alternatives here, but it would be nice to have (or hear) about more off-the-shelf and custom built solutions for XP systems. Len |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
I am looking for hard drive solutions guys..please...
We all have seen the single, internal SATA solutions, running off the internal/motherboard SATA connection. Personal pref of manufacturer can also play a part. What I would really like is some multi-drive solutions. I am guessing these will mostly be external ones...nice SATA arrays and such would be the best I think, as it provides something that is accessible for most users, and can be built upon over time. Anyone with external, racked, RAID, SATA powerhouses? Anyone want to provide a nice bit of info on other solutions, such as fibre drives and such? |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
I have 2 multi-drive systems on my PT 7 HD/ACCEL4 rig.
I have an Intel D875PBZ board with the OS on the IDE drive and the recording drives are 2 WD SATA Raptors in a RAID 0 Array. No problems what so ever. I'm also using an external drive for video and archiving. It's the 2TB LaCie triple interface RAID drive. I have 2 of these daisy chained. Regards, |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Can anyone else confirm RAID with SATA working with current PT HD software and HD hardware with XP please? If RAID will, in fact, work...well...this is major!
RAID 0? RAID 1? RAID 0+1? RAID 5? Also, what kind of external boxes/racks/enclosures are being used? Quote:
|
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Hey Nik;
Sorry to rain on your parade; My understanding is that SCSI drives are better than the SATA solution because of the way the files are cached,(giving you a higher track count). The SATA / firewire /USB drive (removable or internal) solutions are limited by their track count. I was told that if you RAID a series of drives that it is seen as only 1 drive therefore your trackcount will be limited to the spec of one drive. (Which is why Raiding isn`t supported). I know Digi tend to overspec to cover their arse but if anybody is getting a high track count (up to 100 tracks)please shout out. Tell me if you find out any different Bill |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Hi
Track counts...voice use...is only *limited* by the Digi hardware. Basically, it is like any digital mixer: configurable, but with limitations in number of channels. Next would be computer hardware. In my experience, SCSI (ultra wide) of the highest performance rating will aford one with a bit of an edge, but NOT in track count. OK, that is a lie...track count within a rather large session (full voice use, maxed buss use) with tons of edits (high density) might be comprimised (to a degree). Of course, sample rate can have an impact as well. The biggest consistent advantage I have experienced is that SCSI drives (high quality) "spin up" faster, and thus "press play to audio" time is (significantly?) lower. However, this (once again) will vary with session type and size, and thus significance vs $$$ difference will shift as well. If one were doing huge sessions with video, SCSI might the answer. If one is doing sessions with tons of editing, and spin up is a major issue, then SCSI is the answer. BUT! I do not see any other reason for SCSI. Pro installations are doing SATA; external, racked (RAID 5 and RAID 0+1 are what I have seen/heard) being most popular. Prior to running SATA drives, I had two drives in my system: IDE drives, 7200 rpm. I could record 32 tracks at once, none playing back, @ 24/96k. With those 32 playing back, I was still able to record an additional 24 at once (reliably). Returns diminished after that, by about 8 tracks each time I added and continued playing back. I believe at 72 playing back, I had to switch to the system drive for aid. I moved a bunch of tracks to the system drive, and then continued with recording on the audio drive. Attaining the full 96 voice capability was possible with just those two drives. Light edits were also fine, but get into some good, mediumk density edits and things demand reduction in tracks playing back. Not bad IMO! Using dual WD 10K RPM Raptors in round robin (or simply manualy distribute files) does this same scenario up thru medium edits easily. I have not tried adding video, nor have I delved into 192K rate (I simply do not see ANY value in it...sorry...) SCSI is nice, but I have seen too many pro installs with external, racked RAID enabled SATA solutions, with firewire capabilities for portability, or "flying in" extra files. The caching you speak of simply provides the faster "press play to audio" times. Reliability was also a factor before, but it seems to have diminished returns as well. Lastly, with a RAID solution that has two drives apearing as one (non-mirrored), the benefit is that the two are seen as one, but perofrmance is (effectively?) doubled. In other words, as data streams to/from the "single drive," it is actually the two drives doing work, thus the capabilities are doubled (for the most part). It is the pipe the data flows thru that presents the biggest problem then. But, SATA is plenty capable to providing a big enough pipe for anything thrown at it. I only do music, and do not do extremely high density edits. I never excede 128 tracks in regular use (only for testing and such). And I have never needed more than two SATA drives for anything I have done, ever. Of course, that doesnt mean other solutions dont have merit! |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Hi
Track counts...voice use...is only *limited* by the Digi hardware. Basically, it is like any digital mixer: configurable, but with limitations in number of channels. I can only afford an HD 2. Money is also an issue for me Next would be computer hardware. In my experience, SCSI (ultra wide) of the highest performance rating will aford one with a bit of an edge, but NOT in track count. OK, that is a lie...track count within a rather large session (full voice use, maxed buss use) with tons of edits (high density) might be comprimised (to a degree). Of course, sample rate can have an impact as well. The biggest consistent advantage I have experienced is that SCSI drives (high quality) "spin up" faster, and thus "press play to audio" time is (significantly?) lower. However, this (once again) will vary with session type and size, and thus significance vs $$$ difference will shift as well. I work with mainly surround in mind (hence the desire for a high track count).I am also working with High definition Video streaming off a Sata drive and these video`s will be the same Quicktimes that I will be working to within a Pro Tools session. I visited your forum and read about your system, very nice! I also run a second computer with the same Motherboard as you with Gigastudio and Virtual Instruments ,but with a Soundscape Mixtreme. This connects Via 2 TDIFs into an O2R and Streams into Tools via 16 AES. The computer Specs that I have listed in my earlier reply within this post will hopefully do everything within the same computer, but I have the second computer there if there is a RAM problem.(IE BFD/Gigastudio running with a high track count Tools session and Video simultaneously) I have not tried adding video, nor have I delved into 192K rate (I simply do not see ANY value in it...sorry...) I also believe there is little value in the upper sample rates......everything is relative.The upper end audiofile stereo market is very limited, but the surround market, well that is a whole different kettle of fish............... SCSI is nice, but I have seen too many pro installs with external, racked RAID enabled SATA solutions, with firewire capabilities for portability, or "flying in" extra files. The caching you speak of simply provides the faster "press play to audio" times. Reliability was also a factor before, but it seems to have diminished returns as well. I agree, SCSI is nice....... and I also think that networking/and file importability/transportability is important so the USB/Firewire/DVD options are necessary. I also wish I could have all Video/audio Tape formats available for backward compatability but some things you just have to rent per job. (eg Digi Betacams ,HD formats for restripes).Depends on your client ,volume of work and budget. Lastly, with a RAID solution that has two drives apearing as one (non-mirrored), the benefit is that the two are seen as one, but perofrmance is (effectively?) doubled. In other words, as data streams to/from the "single drive," it is actually the two drives doing work, thus the capabilities are doubled (for the most part). It is the pipe the data flows thru that presents the biggest problem then. But, SATA is plenty capable to providing a big enough pipe for anything thrown at it. With reference to this last comment, I know Digi overspec to cover there butts as I mentioned before (I am running 5 SCSI drives dedicated to Pro Tools Audio and hoping to achieve the maximum track count ...192)Fingers crossed, but I am hesitant to Raid at all because it is unsupported. To quote from the Digi Compatability page Pro Tools|HD and Pro Tools|HD Accel Systems for Windows XP Hard Drive Minimum Requirements Dedicated audio drive or drives (internal or external). Recording to or playback from system drives is not supported. SCSI drives recommended for maximum performance Support for IDE/ATA, SATA, and Firewire drives listed below Pro Tools does not support RAID technology. Please do not activate this feature Note the last line.I wish you luck,.......maybe I am not brave enough I only do music, and do not do extremely high density edits. I never excede 128 tracks in regular use (only for testing and such). And I have never needed more than two SATA drives for anything I have done, ever. Of course, that doesnt mean other solutions dont have merit! I have just upgraded from a Mixplus system on a MAC and I did run into DAE errors due to High PCI traffic on Maximum track counts with Video.....It is probably my Meglomania (Composition, Post,Surround etc) that brings me undone but I believe that the research I have put into this system should give enough headroom for all these requirements simultaneously. I have paid a lot of attention to the overall demands on the computers resources and the only area that I can see will let me down is 32 Bit Window XP`s limit on RAM (4 gig).Obviously the Virtual instruments/Gigastudio rewire instruments will have to bounced down to audio at some point,but hey,we all have to make comprimises somewhere I`ll let you know how I get on, thanks for the feedback, I think open dialog really helps us all Keep up the good work (Your site is great and I think it has a big future) Bill |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Bill: Thx for the comments, and your posts! The ONLY thing that makes this piece of the DUC work is user participation
As far as RAID goes...this is exactly what I am looking for! Users who have taken a leap, and what they discovered. It is all those I am hoping will pop in from the woodwork, in addition to those using proven, or partially proven, systems. I have posts of users running RAID with success. THIS intrigues me, as it allows for one to begin with small realities, and build to big dreams. Surround: I work in both stereo and surround (5.1). I keep flopping between 24/44.1k, and 24/96k. To my ears, 24/96k has this...something to it. Combine 24/96k with 5.1, and then do delay comp and high track counts (64-96 voices), and one starts pushing boundaries, and the importance of good data streaming becomes paramount. PCI "clogging" is an issue I faced early on when pushing limits, and the ASUS discovery was a direct result of that. I am hoping a nice dual dual core (or better!) motherboard solution with HD4 capabilities onboard (no expansion chassis) presents itself. A successor to the ASUS P4800-E is sorely needed. But, upcoming/forthcoming technologies are clouding this...sigh..oh well! |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
The Motherboard I chose will only support HD3 which I will probably upgrade to when I can,the whole PCIe thing is clouding the issue I agree , the expansion chassis communicating by gigabit ethernet induces latency with RTAS instruments , which as you well know already has its own problems.
I was going to stay on the Mac platform but this was in fact the major reason I didn`t go PCIe and stay on the Mac Platform (plus the fact that I could only afford HD2 and I would get better performance from the PCIX cards) This would also enable me to use Gigastudio rewired back into Tools. Yay |
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Brandon |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
I'm looking for something comparable to the Allenstein (the system mentioned in the PTLE forum) for those that are using HD.
The Allenstein has the best of breed and certified parts that seem to work well as well as cost effective. I've been using PTLE for a while and just bought the HD core only to find that my system doens't have long enough slots (it's a mini tower) so I'm immediately in the market for a full size system. Ideas, pointers and help appreciated. Reid Lowery MSN Studios |
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I use a regular size case but the drive bay chassis was removeable. I got some adaptors to house the drives in the top where the CD/DVD burner is. It actually works out better because there is more air flow around the drives. Also see "Poor Man's HD Rig" thread. Shane |
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Onto the system... As Shan has listed, that is a "mega power" machine, but you might find a limit on the number of HD cards you can fit. If you do not plan on expanding anytime soon (year or so), I would give that one a shot. If you want a rock solid, proven winner that has decent performance, then hit the first post in this thread; it lists some of the parts for building a single core, single CPU machine that is capable of holding 4 HD cards, possibly 5 (depends on video card used). If you hit the link in my sig, it will lead you to pages I made, and the Hardware->Computer part of the site has a very detailed list and explanation of what I used. You can substitute another case, but the rest is pretty much the defacto industry standard for building an HD computer for average performance. Please keep in mind: Average performance is quite relative. For someone doing huge sessions with video, and using other Avid products (AV10, mojo, etc), a different approach is required, and I have not updated this post to reflect that yet...soon... I use my system with a bunch of different synths, and it holds it's own; with 4 HD/Accel cards, I only use the host DSP for virtual instruments (basically). For a single HD card, I would recommend something more powerful, since you will be relying on host power for alot. There are some threads that list cases people have used. I recommend the one I used for a rackmount solution, or if you hit the Sweetwater site, you can see a full tower that is very common that also works. Others here have listed more, and once again- I need to go through all of this and add it to this thread. |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Thanks Nikki, I printed out the 4 basics in the Quadzilla thread and did some research at Frys (we have it here in Washington).
I've got the HD Core card, will probably add an Accel and also have the 192. So as soon as I can assemble my new PC, I'm operational...meanwhile I still cook with my Digi002r. Suggestions and caveats appreciated. I saw Shan's list and think that's a winner. Little bit about me, I retired from Microsoft after 13 years and now work for Walt Disney for fun ;-). My studio (Make Some Noize aka MSN) is dedicated to at risk youth and teens. Thanks gang, Reid |
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Just to be 100% certain, I will put my demo Accel card in all the slots tonight and report back. Shane |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Thanks Shane, so if I read things correctly, your system was the detail here...let me know if anything changed...I'm going down to Fry's after work tonight and will be buying parts. I tell you guys, this takes me back to 1982...buidling early PC's and PCXT's...I've built boxes over the years, but none since about 6 years ago...this is very sweet ;-).
What was your total outlay? $$$ -Tyan Tiger K8WE (S2877ANRF) Motherboard - Detailed specs here. (Purchased from Antares Digital) -Two Opteron 265 Dual-Core CPUs -4G of Corsair CM72SD1024RLP-3200 (1024MB Registered DDR400, 2 Ranks) -Two ASUS EN6600/TD/256 Video card(I needed two for some post work) -Western Digital SATA 36G Raptor hard drive -Western Digital SATA 74G Raptor hard drive -Lite-On DVDRW SHW-1635S -OCZ Powerstream 520W Power supply -A very well ventilated generic case(I have a machine room so noise is not a problem) |
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Also read my first post on the quad forum regarding the addendum for plugging in the firewire cable. Shoot me an email and I'll give you a hand with assenmbly. But I cannot help if you alter the parts list. The above system is stable and works. Bottom line. I have had a few people bring me altered parts from the list I gave them to build their systems. I no longer do that. Many nightmares. This is my current case. Also keep in mind that the stock CPU fans are VERY noisy. You can grab some Zalman fans posted on the first post of my Quadzilla thread. Shane |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Also forgot to mention that this system is so new with HD that I wont really be able to torture it until another week with some huge productions. (And I'm talkin' huge)
So far, so good though. Shane |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Can't email you (won't allow PM) and I don't know your email addy.
I'm reid at rlowery dot org I'll be sticking as close as I can to your specs. I'm struggling finding the Tyan Tiger in stock, what's the turn around from the mail order? (how long) I'll be picking up the rest tonight at Fry's as soon as the MB shows up, I'll be ready. I note the mail order place is out of 265's as well. Is there any constraint or can I go with any Opteron that's 940 socket? Thanks, Bodie aka Reid |
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Buy it from here. Shane |
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hey niki is this the ram you are talking about?? I that is the biggest problem slowing my computer down cause i bought crappy 512(20 bucks) just to get it running...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820144141 A little confused in this area............. |
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I need to correct my site, because I actually swapped that memory out to my other system, and got 2GB (4- 512M sticks) Kingston HyperX PC3200 2-2-2-5 timing RAM instead. I would only recommend it for tweakers looking to eek out some extra performance though. It is a tough call on RAM, but not tough at the same time: simplified? Kingston HyperX PC3200 or PC3500 will perform the same. Only when one tweaks BIOS settings for RAM will anything "better" show any improvement. Therefore, IMO, not worth ANY extra cost. Bottom line then? Buy whichever is cheaper, cause it is basically the SAME RAM. Yep, the SAME. So if Kingston HyperX PC3200 is cheaper today per stick, buy it. If PC3500 is cheaper, buy it instead. Just buy matched pairs, so as to use dual channel bussing (technobabble that means "better ). Lastly, 1GB (2- 512M sticks) is great for a system doing mostly TDM plugs, and/or not using RTAS or VST instruments; If one were planning to use lots of RTAS plugs, and/or virtual instruments, I would suggest 2GB, 4-512M sticks. |
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Great work Nikki. This thread will be very valuable to many. Shane |
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Shane,
Thanks for the great help last night, i've ordered my kit ;-) and will be building on Friday. it's soon to be an Opteron (270) dually with 4 gig in a nice roomy case ;-). My HD Card will be happy to find a home. Did you have time to play with bench marks on the HD last night? Bodie |
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A Dverb test on my 265 with 4G of ram will give me 135 Dverbs. You will be very close to 150 Dverbs on your system with the Opteron 270. If I recall we got about 146 Dverbs with 3G of ram on the 270. Keep in mind that Dverb is quite the CPU hog which is why I like to use it for benchmark tests. You'll have plug-in power for days on your system. Your system will smoke and at the same time cost effective into the world of HD. Shane |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
Shan- I am very interested in the RAM thing. With 32-bit OS's having a limit of 4G, but XP (and apps running on it) having a supposed limit of 3G (if Registry switch set properly), have you done any testing with a single core single cpu system to check stability and such with 4G?
The ASUS board (P4C800-E) is supposed to support 4G, but no 1G sticks are approved for use, thus one is *stuck* with 2G. I ask because I CAN see (easily) a benefit in a dual cpu system, and especially with a system with excellent memory sharing across cpu's. In this instance also, with the advnet of 64-bit sitting close(r), prepping now for the boon of mega-size RAM useability is an excellent idea (IMO at least ) |
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The 64bit band wagon has started. It will be interesting to see what Digis next major move will be. Shane |
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Ahh- gotcha.
Yeah- for those following this, I will sum it up simply, and if any mistakes are present, somone please correct me, with refs to data. OK- the reason Shan is seeing this si due to what I believe dual CPU's *allow*: communication and utilization of RAM PER processor, or maybe even core. For sure for multiple CPU's tho. Basically, the OS is addressing RAM per CPU, thus each CPU could use up to 3G RAM with the proper settings and tweaks in XP (experts only guys, pls dont gamble and/or bugger your system unnecessarily!). So, yes- 4G and dual CPU's will add a very significant boost in capabilities for those native processes (namely, RTAS for us). Single CPU users: BEWARE! This does NOT apply to you!!! Windows XP, despite being a "true 32-bit OS," has a practical 2.5G RAM limit. Those with the know-how, or $$ and hours to experiment, are capable of running 3G RAM. Personally, I am happy with 2G. Disk caching/streaming has proven to be moderately (ok, more than moderately ) successful; using care when working might prove more valuable than wasting effort trying to exceed 3G...or even 2.5G. So, basic rule of thumb for now is: 2-2.5G per CPU. Experts: have a blast treading on the 3G per CPU bit of fun. I am 100% sure of my statements on single CPU and RAM issues. 100%. Period. For dual CPU and dual Core- I am pretty sure of my statements, but may have erred slightly in theory or relating something- hopefully some kind soul will correct me! |
Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM
I think that's all contingent on 32 vs. 64 bit windows. (I retired from Microsoft back in December). My bet is using 64 bit windows, you've got little constraint other than what the app can address. i'll be deploying another partition on this system to bench 64 bit, but not in the next 30 days.
Bodie |
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Your Quad Opteron 270 system will smoke. You'll have plenty of DSP power. As a side note, PT wont run at this point under the current beta version of Vista. We have some DUC members here who are also beta Vista testers who have tried. Digi will have to right new drivers. But I can tell that SAW studio sure works in Vista. And it smokes. Shane |
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I am very serious considering a Tyan K8WE MB for my next "mac" for a PT HD 3 system. But I can see that the K8WE board comes in a least 4 different versions: The S2895 and the S2877. Those two again have "sisters"-versions.
I need some help on deciding wich board to get: With or wihtout onboard audio/video? and so fourth? Anybody? Peter |
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