How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

So I tracked a band recently that is comprised of 2 people. A drummer, and a guitarist/singer. He plays a strat through a fender blues jr playing hendrix-y bluesy stuff mixed with some prince funk. He fills the room with the full range of the guitar, and doesn't need a bass. It works in a room. I attended a couple rehearsals to understand their sound.


In the recordings, the guitars don't sound so full. They take up the frequency space that electric guitars "should" take in a full band (250-8k or so). I want to get the mix to include the frequencies down to 80Hz that I heard in the room when tracking.

I do have a DI track so I can reamp, use parallel tracks for amp sims, etc etc. So all is not lost.

But WHAT could even be done, what technique, to get the depth of a full human ear experience but in an ITB mixing situation? He used an EQ pedal to boost the lows all the way down to 80 curved down from the left to flat on the right. That's how he gets his sound to begin with. :eek: I've never been put in the position to capture something like that before, so I close mic'ed the cab with a ribbon and an off axis 58 (with the grill removed). They sound GREAT but they don't sound like what I hear in the room.

Any advice (and scolding) are welcome and appreciated!! :confused:

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Room mic(s)
maybe a LCD close to the cab

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

So if I put the DI through a sim and set the microphone really far out (like in DPs G Room) it will sound big and bassy and huge lows?

Of course there are psychoacoustic things happening in the live room while tracking, but whatever my brain thinks my ears heard, that's what I want in the mix ;-)

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

I suspect Craig meant track the original live performance with a room mic.

You can try reamping/overlaying multiple times, esp. try different cab sims/mic positions, etc.

There is a lot going on with a live amp in a room....

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

I think a reference mic in the room wouldn't pick up what my brain tells me my ears are hearing, if that makes sense.

I think because of the volume, it sounds bass heavy and booming, because I can feel it in my chest, in the floor (even though the amp was on a bench for recording) etc. Pretty sure my microphones recorded the sound that was actually coming out of the speaker. But I had a different impression in the room, and I don't know the techniques to recreate that feeling of being next to an amp that's moving that much air.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Well first, assuming that there's no hi pass filters anywhere in your chain,
and assuming you have the monitoring/room combo to hear/feel the bottom octave…
and assuming your mic pre has suitable input impedance. (impedance mismatches will degrade the sound of a ribbon mic...)

...it doesn't ring true that your low end only extends to 250,
especially since, using ribbons up close, you should have two more octaves to play with..

audition the mics separately,
as the combo may be phase cancelling.

(with normal mic-ing, in a pop mix or dense rock track, usually there's too much of the lo's,
it's normal to have to HPF the guitar tones above 125 for 150 so they don't mud up the mix.)

In an analog situation the tape would saturate and soften the highs.

ITB, I suspect the lo's you need might be there.
Just being masked by too many highs.

so the first thing I would do is pull out a high cut filter, 6 db/octave,
and start to pull it down.

after gently cutting the hi's, if there still isn't enough girth,
then re amp, using his setup and pay close (pun intended) attention to the mic-ing to maximize proximity effect.

as craig mentioned, try a condenser, as it will have deeper lows,
or a 421/441 instead of the 57/58.

IIRC, that amp is open backed, so mic it from the rear and flip the phase.

also, place the amp on the floor (hopefully wood, and on a raised foundation),
close to a wall, or to max the horn effect, in the corner.

if you still felt the need to enhance,
the first tool I would probably pull up is the waves renbass,
which without going into all the details of how it works,
would be a good way to add some hair to the bottom octave, while keeping his original tone intact.

(And forget about the amp sims, they won't sound true to your guitar player.)

In the future, take Craig's advice, and always use room mics,
as this will add depth and dimension, and warm up the tone…
e
for the record

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

You're going to have to discern what exactly you were hearing - the guitar or drum set (specifically the kick drum) making that heavy booming sound. Also you were probably hearing the different room modes/resonances and a mic on a guitar cab might not pick that up, depending on the mic. Was the guitar player using a 7 string guitar by any chance? That can give a real low sound. As mentioned before mic type and placement at the guitar cab will make a whale of a difference. Something to try the next time you record this duo is to try a ribbon mic on the guitar cab.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Elicious: no HPF. I don't have a proper room set up, just moved 2 weeks ago but can't postpone, so I'm working in an untreated room, but it's filled with book cases and books and boxes, so sort of diffused ;-)

I was using the built in preamps on my Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, I didn't check the impedance, but it sound like a ribbon to my ears, nothing odd. Maybe what you're referring to is more subtle than I was thinking to look?

And you're right, it's not cut at 250 but that's where the signal is strong, in the mids.

Surprisingly, I was unable to get proximity effect from the 58 even with the grill removed to get the capsule closer. The 58 track I have is the crunchy shrill one (compared to the ribbon).

I will try low pass filters (is there a linear phase EQ in PT or do I need to bounce over to Logic for a minute to test this?) and if I need to I can record those tracks to tape (slate VTM doesn't do much for me, it's too subtle and clean for me: his machines and tape are both too good, it's pristine and has massive headroom).

And the Amp Sims I have are the ElevenRack and BIAS. If they're mixed in with the original amp, I'm not sure he'd know, the EQ pedal was overdriving his preamp, and he was using a grindy distortion pedal too.

MusicMan: The drummer was tracked on different days. No kick drum.

So this was only a 6 string fender strat middle pickup (on a tele, but in middle position and an actual strat pickup). It had heavy gauge strings, but was tuned to E.

This was done in a living room (I'm mobile). Where I was sitting on the sofa, the amp was 6 feet in front of me, 2 feet to the right, and pointed 90° to my left, so I was not in line, but I did stick my bare ears near the grill a few times to hear what was really there, and it sounded big there too. The sofa I was on was not against a wall, the room is set up oddly, but suffice it to say I don't think I was sitting in any standing waves, it was literally shaking the house. THATS the effect I want to get on the album, but without a bass guitar. Maybe this is actually something that gets "fixed in mastering"?

I did use a ribbon. I have a ribbon, a 58 (grill removed), and DI tracks. At one point I put the ribbon inside the back of the cabinet to try to capture just the low boom, and it kind of did, but it doesn't translate in the mix.

Of course it is possible that because his amp has a 12" speaker and my monitors are smaller, maybe that's why I'm not hearing how big it is? Then again, most people will have Apple EarPods anyway, and I want those people to hear it fully, so I feel like I'm suddenly out of my depth professionally! I've never had this kind of problem where I can't make a recording sound like the music!!!!!!

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Those folks with Apple EarPods may have better bass response than your monitors (well if they wear them properly), I'm not sure why you would assume they do not. If you worry about what they will hear, then mix/test using them.

You do not necessarily need 12" speakers to reproduce the frequency range of the guitar amp that you were hearing. But one of the first things you will need to do is to be able to reproduce things at a decent SPL since that affects so much of the perception. And if you were sitting close to a live drum set well you are getting lots of high-SPL signal (even without a low-frequency kick drum)... and for that you will need a decent monitor setup. What monitors/amps/speakers are you tryign to use here? I suspect that has a lot to do with what is going on...

I'm stlll lost here a bit... you tracked the guitar player by himself with no drum hearable to you, and you are comparing that live sound to the recorded guitar only?

"literally shaking the house"... well that requires SPL.. again what are your monitors/subwoofer etc.?

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Of course I reference my mixes on different speakers as I go, but I haven't gotten that far, because it seems like the microphones didn't pick up what I heard, because I think what I heard was not real. THATS the issue. I think it was the psychoacoustic things that happen at 110dB or however loud the amp was that day. There were no drums in the room that day.

When I listen back at 83dB I don't hear it. My setup is quite humble, for monitors I'm using M-Audio BX5a deluxe. They're not great. That said, I know them, because I've been using them for (too many) years. Once I get my new place set up, I'll be looking at some Tannoy Reveals or something similarly priced. For now, though...

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Since you don't really know what your room is doing yet, check the bottom octaves with the best set of headphones you have. You really asked 2 questions here. #1-how to RECORD a full range sound. And #2-how can you make it sound full range, now that you are mixing.

Re #1, many good suggestions already. with an open-back amp, I often mic the cab from both sides, flip polarity on the rear mic and balance(both for live mixing, and for recording). When recording, I will also check for time-alignment by zooming in and using Tab to Transient on the front and rear tracks, and nudge the rear(if its off) so its exactly lined up with the front. Room mics are great, except that they pick up everything(like the drums):o

Re #2, make sure your room and monitors are not fooling you(going thru the same ordeal in my new room right now:o). Maybe duplicate the track a few times and use EQ(and AIR KILL) to divide the frequency ranges, giving you more control. Maybe leave the track with just the lows in the center, but spread the high tracks across the stereo field with some mono-stereo enhancement, a stereo room reverb or some judicious delays that are panned hard. What you heard in the room, during recording, would also have included some extra "oomph" if the amp was sitting on the floor, maybe some stage resonance(some stages are worse than others:D), lots of room reflections and even some PA contribution:rolleyes:

Last 2 cents, experiment:-) Maybe none of these ideas does the trick, but maybe spurs you to try something else that nobody has mentioned. Maybe send the DI track out thru a bass amp and record that(nudge into alignment) and use that track to fill in the bottom.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

You might also experiment using a multiband compressor or dynamic eq plugin to attenuate higher frequencies and emphasize the mid-low frequencies.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Tried a dynamic EQ, that helped some, but I found what really helped was cranking my master volume. Once I put it close to 100dB, it sounds much closer, so there must be a fletcher-muncen thing going on, that's all it comes down to. I need to check some curves at lower levels (where people actually listen in their car with passengers, living room, etc) and perhaps make adjustments to the EQ based on that... I've never take this into account, always understanding that's for mastering, depending if it's going to vinyl or cd, I never know, but because there's no bass this time...

Very odd experience for me!

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

I still remember with sorrow the day that I learned....
The only way to get the guitar to sound like it does in the room, is to have the recorded guitar playing back at the same sound pressure level as it was in the room.
This is difficult, because even if you do capture the thump, as soon as you turn the sound pressure level down, that effect is gone.
Harmonic generating pluggins are a good place to start, MaxBass, RBass, etc....
To fool your brain into thinking it's there.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Some of you mentioned recording the guitar amp with a ribbon mic.

Ribbon mics are usually Figure 8 pattern. What do you with the backside which faces the room?

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Pick up the sound of the room? I think that's part of the idea, anyway... Still doesn't get the full sound, and I believe I've come to a conclusion that makes sense:

After much thought on the matter, I realize that in person, in the studio or in a concert setting, we hear music differently than we do in the control room, or in the car. In the car, we hear music differently than we do in headphones. My theory is that a part of this is because a part of what we *experience* when we listen to music is kinesthetic and not auditory! We have kinestethic sensory receptors in our muscles and joints, and the neural pathways seem to be the same ones that sense cutaneous pressure! So when you're at a fireworks display and feel the "boom/thud" of the short bright bursts (the ones that remind people of canons?) you don't just HEAR the explosion in your ears (which wouldn't be able to be captured with normal studio microphones, or reproduced on normal studio monitor speakers either), but you FEEL it as well. Maybe using a subwoofer backwards as a microphone could accomplish this, and then playback on a system that has a subwoofer that goes down to 4Hz or something (with whatever *massive* power requirements it would take to get those frequencies close to what they are in the room, with or without taking the fletcher munsen curve into account).

Otherwise, the thing I'm lacking (that I want to accomplish) is to get the feeling of the "chest pounding" you get at a concert in front of a full stack of 4x12s. That's not possible with SM57s, 421, 409, U87, or anything else I can think of.

How do we get that THUD? That CHEST pumping BASS response from a 6 string electric guitar amp?

How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

I’m not sure the point of this thread. If the best you are using is a low-end pair of M-Audio monitors you are not going to reproduce the sound of a live drummer and guitarist in the room.

You tracked in untreated presumably relatively small room, the drums and guitar amp are very likely to be exciting room modes. That could very well give pleasant low-end extension... which playing back on low-power monitors in a different space is just not going to reproduce. And cranking up your monitors trying to produce higher SPL will likely just produce a muddy mess.

This whole discussion seems a waste of time until you improve the monitoring.

I also don’t follow why you did not jump on suggestions earlier of micing the room. Seems a good thing to try. Or so at least try backing off one of the cab mics. and give yourself a chance of picking up more room resonance and reverb to see what that does.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

You won't get as much as a full range with a Blues Jr. unless it's been modified, and still... Try at least a half stack or a 4x12. Also make sure to get all the stereo room you can as previously mentioned.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

The Blues Jr makes big sound in the room. Guess it's a lively room as Darryl Ramm suggested. Even with mic'ing the room, or using the A room in my local studio, or recording at a venue in a hall (lively room on purpose, no?) I don't seem to be able to capture the BIGNESS of the single guitar amp, because of 1) the SPL which doesn't translate well, mixed or not, and 2) some of the experience of the music is not audible - that part is difficult to reproduce even for cinema - took a long time before anyone figured that one out!

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

You could get really big guitar sounds with a sm57 if you find the right amp, but big is relative. A Blues Jr might sound big alone but if you take the time to compare it's nothing next to a real amp. I'd rent at least a Deville with greenbacks if I were you. The bjr was intentionally crippled in design so it wouldn't be a strong contender to its bigger brothers. What you are hearing is probably volume, remember that loud sounds better, once you put that in the context text of a mix it is not loud anymore, and the true tone of the amp shows.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

I'd say put up an omni pattern mic as a room mic a few feet back from the amp. Also try an RE20 on the amp itself.

What you really need to do is to put on a pair of headphones and walk around with the mic while the guitarist is playing. Listening on the cans as you move around with the mic will tell you where you'll get the sound you want. Also do the same thing with positioning the mic at the amp. Micing the edge of the cone will give you a different sound than micing the center.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

For a big full guitar sound: The HOLY GRAIL of multi miked, room mics & multi amp setups + DI is Sound Radix's AutoAlign plugin.

It fixes all phase issues and makes all of your sources work together.

Auto Align is the greatest thing ever for Guitar & Bass with a DI or multi mic/multi amp situations. It is so audible (when you A/B it) you'll be shocked.

As a guitar player, AutoAlign is a bigger game changer than Waves L1 was back in '92.

When you pull up your own older sessions (from before AAlign existed) and you put it on the guitar tracks, you may cry. Indispensable.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

The lower the frequency the larger the waveform the farther from the source the mic needs to be to capture it. Even a small diameter condenser 4-8 feet away is going to give you more lows to work with(along with some room sound of course). I would do as musicman suggests using headphones with a close mic and a condenser(preferably one without a hyped top or middle) aimed straight at the speaker moving the room mic to get as close as possible to the sound you want. I agree that psychoacoustic plugins such as Rbass and RenAxx can definitely help, as would the right compressor. Also I might mention that if you are listening in front of near fields when mixing,you may be too close to them to hear the lower frequencies that are there. Try listening from the next room and see if it sounds closer to what you heard when tracking.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

I should add that I find recording with a ribbon gives me a warm, semi -dark midrange-y tone , but not a bunch of low frequency

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

Just out of curiosity, have you tried playing back your recording in the same room that you recorded in? Place the monitor speakers in the same position and direction as the guitar amp during recording, and play it back at the same volume it was played live. How does it sound in that situation?

The point is, you might have already captured the performance, and what you're missing is the acoustic listening environment that greatly affects what you hear and feel.

Now, if it sounds right only when played back in the same environment as the recording, I'm not sure how you would emulate that so it translates the same feel in other environments.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

GTO - Agree. A Coles will do a great job here in front. Not too close though.

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

It might sound counterintuitive, but try placing a mic in the *back* of a combo amp & feeding that into the front facing mic blend (you will most likely have to reverse the phase of this mic too, much like miking a snare top & bottom). It a weird trick I found works when miking up VOX AC30's etc

Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?
 

That is a totally different sound and can really add something to a guitar's sound. It won't work though with a closed back amp/cab ;)