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-   -   X-form and pitch shifting (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=380081)

idris 04-18-2016 04:45 AM

X-form and pitch shifting
 
I've used, and been disappointed by iZotope, when doing PAL to NTSC deliverables.

Since "X-Form is based on the iZotope Radius time-stretching and pitch-shifting algorithms", is there any diference in performance?

Reckless Erik 04-18-2016 11:26 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Have you tried Time Factory?

iain@savalas.co.uk 04-18-2016 12:57 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
i've just finished a feature set of deliverables and found Elastique Pitch by zplane to be outstanding. X-form use to be my go to but maybe not now. Time shift or X-form on monophonic usually works for Dialogue. Always pitch the stems.

Artis 04-18-2016 11:57 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I have wondered as well what alternatives besides the x-form are. Have spend a lot of time pitch shifting clip by clip and track by track. Sometimes pitching by stems doesn't work well and artefacts are audible. Besides, x-form isn't great in terms of workflow efficiency. There is a place for the improvement.

idris 04-19-2016 03:59 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I'm looking into Time Factory and X-Form for a client who has historical preference. I've not used either, though heard universally good things about Time Factory.
Just wondering if X-Form is even worth looking at if it uses iZotope algorithms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iain@savalas.co.uk (Post 2351037)
i've just finished a feature set of deliverables and found Elastique Pitch by zplane to be outstanding. [...] Always pitch the stems.

Zplane is new to me. Is it capable of fps changes on stems without introducing artifacts? (This is the problem I've had with iZotope. Subtle, but audible watery-birds on dialog.)

Cheesehead 04-19-2016 04:17 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
+1 for Timefactory.
Great results with the minimum fuss.
I do my stems standalone on a laptop and get on with other stuff on my main rig.
You can demo it.

Ray JB 04-19-2016 04:41 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
......timefactory

chrisdee 04-19-2016 05:13 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I use both X-from and Serato. X-from is much slower but sounds better.
Serato is very fast but also sounds good.

idris 04-19-2016 07:22 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisdee (Post 2351194)
... X-from is much slower but sounds better ...

What are you using X-Form for?

minister 04-19-2016 08:53 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idris (Post 2351178)
Is it capable of fps changes on stems without introducing artifacts? (This is the problem I've had with iZotope. Subtle, but audible watery-birds on dialog.)

Don't use a Time/Pitch plugin for FPS changes. Rather, use SRC, it is more accurate and sounds better.

idris 04-19-2016 09:13 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by minister (Post 2351232)
Don't use a Time/Pitch plugin for FPS changes. Rather, use SRC, it is more accurate and sounds better.

SRC gets the duration correct, but how do you correct the resulting pitch change? Are you using something other than PT's own SRC, or are you just ignoring the pitch change?

Reckless Erik 04-19-2016 10:18 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I use SRC to get the fps changes right. Then Time Factory to do the pitch conversions. Best to pitch stems and not a final mix. Then let the stems render out a mix (using offline bounce).

idris 04-19-2016 10:54 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckless Erik (Post 2351256)
I use SRC to get the fps changes right. Then Time Factory to do the pitch conversions. Best to pitch stems and not a final mix. Then let the stems render out a mix (using offline bounce).

I use the same workflow. I'm just not happy with the tools I've got to pitch shift, especially on Dx. (And as the demo of TimeFactory doesn't let you export, it's a PITA to A/B it's output with other pitch shifters. Harumph!)

minister 04-19-2016 12:13 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckless Erik (Post 2351256)
I use SRC to get the fps changes right. Then Time Factory to do the pitch conversions. Best to pitch stems and not a final mix. Then let the stems render out a mix (using offline bounce).

This is what I do. Except, I use X-Form. It's slow, but I have been happy with PAL to FILM or PAL to NTSC or FILM to PAL.

For NTSC to FILM or vice versa, who cares about the .1% pitch....

Some day would like to try Time Factory

garret 04-19-2016 03:37 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I've been banging on about zplanes elastique for the last few years on here and Gearslutz. I haven't heard better and it will do an amazing job on a full mix as well should you need to.

lode 04-19-2016 11:52 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Reckless Erik: Why do you src first, and then pitch correct in Timefactory instead of just time-strecth in Timefactory? Seems like a longer route to get to the same place. Or does Timefactory sound better when pitch-changing than when it is time-stretching?

garret: I´ve never heard Elastique. Have you compared it to Timefactory?

Schottlandru 04-20-2016 02:38 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
SRC will give you 100% sync, whereas the time-stretching algorithms usually shift about to make things fit as they feel works best for them.
Users here have reported times being off by a frame or more.


I remember doing a shootout between different tools.
I preferred Nuendos realtime shift which is based on Elastique.

But a question: My main issue with all algorithms is a certain grainyness in the sound, esp. dialog. You could also call it rough.
Any tips on what might be causing this? Would be very greatful for anybody sharing!!

My findings: tools are either good for long, bassy or paddy sounds and grainy/metallic on transients, or they are better for transients but hiccup and blip on those bassy, long sustained sounds.

I once tried PitchnTime which wounded great on the mix up to when the music came in... it stares warbling the pitch up and down like a record left out int the sun and going oval shaped. Totally surprised me as the settings where clearly only shifting for pal to film, and I immediately lost trust in the tool. Thisnwas freelancing somewhere else, so no time to repeat yet...

lode 04-20-2016 05:40 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Ok. So it handles sync better when pitch shifting than when timestretching?

PnT works great in V mode for adjusting ADR. Not so much however for fps conversion.

garret 04-20-2016 06:20 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
If you had V mode on in pitch n time it mangles everything but dialogue. But the other modes which sound good on music and fx really mess with the dialogue! Basically it can't be used on a full mix. It does however work pretty well on individual stems. I'm taking about pitching only. SRC separately as previously described.

john1192 04-20-2016 09:22 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
x-form ... another good but abandon product from Avid .. when is the last time we had an update for X-Form .. some of us paid 500.00 for x-form when it came out .. now worth 39.00 LOL

Reckless Erik 04-20-2016 12:56 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
As someone said I believe the point about doing SRC first and then pitch shift, is to maintain phase coherence between channels, esp in muxed files. I tried Time Factory's SRC and found that channels drifted out of sync with each other. There is no sync drift if you do the SRC first on export from PT. The pitch shift in TF is very good with various different algorithms to suit tastes. It is also much faster than X-Form and is stand alone so you can continue working in PT whilst converting in TF (preferably on another pc as has also been mentioned).

lode 04-21-2016 12:09 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
If you "join" or whatever it is called (in TF) then the channels stay in sync.

When I have the time I´m going do try out the different methods including stems, whole mix, src-&-pitchshifting and timestretching.

Or has anybody else done a comparison before?

MIKEROPHONICS 04-21-2016 02:18 AM

X-form and pitch shifting
 
Hi Garret

Elastique pitch looks very good from a quick scootch around. Very good price wise too.
Does it include an audiosuite version or do you have to run it live on stems and re-record the output?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

garret 04-21-2016 02:03 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Hi Mike. That's the only downside is that you have to run it real time. It has a long delay on it so you'll need long delay comp. no audio suite I'm afraid. Gives you a chance to check your mix on the way down one more time! ��

Schottlandru 04-21-2016 02:48 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I am not 100% sure but thought V2 contained an audio suite?
But I may be completely wrong here... just thought I kept reading it in the Audiosuite Menu.
(not in front of PT right now)

idris 04-22-2016 03:12 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Just going back to the original question, any opions on the abilities of X-Form vs iZotope Radius / Time and Pitch / RX Advanced?

And any thoughts on the various parameters for different types of material? (eg Dx vs Mus?)

MIKEROPHONICS 04-22-2016 04:19 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I am thinking of doing a test of the available products some time and publishing the results. It would make a very interesting comparison.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tom_lowe 04-22-2016 07:33 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Schottlandru (Post 2351806)
I am not 100% sure but thought V2 contained an audio suite?
But I may be completely wrong here... just thought I kept reading it in the Audiosuite Menu.
(not in front of PT right now)

V2 is Audio Suite and running it as AAX has much much lower latency than V1. All round worthwhile, much nicer results than X-form.

tom_lowe 04-22-2016 07:36 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MIKEROPHONICS (Post 2351918)
I am thinking of doing a test of the available products some time and publishing the results. It would make a very interesting comparison.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let me know if you want any help with test using Elastique, I'd gladly do anything to spread the word about this as I personally love it.

MIKEROPHONICS 04-22-2016 07:54 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Tom can you confirm whether it has Audiosuite?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tom_lowe 04-22-2016 08:10 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MIKEROPHONICS (Post 2351956)
Tom can you confirm whether it has Audiosuite?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

100% yes to Audiosuite.

garret 04-22-2016 12:15 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Sorry for misinformation regarding audio suite. I only have version 1.

Schottlandru 04-22-2016 05:02 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Idris, the thing with Izotope Radius is that it is only stereo at max - so phase consistency within a 5.1 mix is not given.

It did sound great in one of my tests though, and there is a thread on Gearslutz with Aleksey (an Izotope developer) giving advice on how to tweak the parameters for different artefacts.
Generally when I did a shootout I found it to sound very good on my test material, albeit only on the stereo downmix of course.

Really hoping the clever brains at Izotope find a way to go multichannel with it some time.

Mike - a shootout would be awesome!
Things to keep in mind though: 24-25 and 25-24 are two different scenarios with their own difficulties...

idris 04-23-2016 12:33 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Schottlandru (Post 2352121)
... there is a thread on Gearslutz with Aleksey (an Izotope developer) giving advice on how to tweak the parameters for different artefacts ...

Do you have a link for that? I've tried several searches, but can't find anything obvious. (Is the spelling of his user name correct?)

tom_lowe 04-23-2016 03:40 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garret (Post 2352040)
Sorry for misinformation regarding audio suite. I only have version 1.

Upgrade to v2 is so cheap, I'd really recommend it

garret 04-23-2016 03:42 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tom_lowe (Post 2352184)
Upgrade to v2 is so cheap, I'd really recommend it

On it Tom!! Didn't realise it was audio suite till now! Excellent news! Thanks

smurfyou 04-23-2016 11:28 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I'm late to the party. I only tried X-form once and it was so slow . Timefactory is great. I've tried Elastique real-time but had no idea the new version was Audiosuite. Thanks for the heads-up!

minister 08-29-2016 11:25 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by minister (Post 2351304)
This is what I do. Except, I use X-Form. It's slow, but I have been happy with PAL to FILM or PAL to NTSC or FILM to PAL.

For NTSC to FILM or vice versa, who cares about the .1% pitch....

Some day would like to try Time Factory

Wanted to report back that I finally had an opportunity to purchase Time Factory 2 to process STEMS for a 23.976-->25 Film Style pull up. I used SRC to get everything in time. Then I put those stems into TF2 and selected the appropriate settings for each type of Stem (DX, FX, MX). I also had used X-Form to process same stems for comparison.

I must say that on every stem, TF2 sounded superior. The music stem was really good. Impressed.

HOWEVER, at an appropriate setting for music -- ZTX/Classics(l=5)/Best -- the processing time took over 5 hours. So, not FASTER. But I am happy with the results!

mgoorevich 08-29-2016 12:13 PM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I use TF2 all the time for all frame rate conversion tasks. Don't bather to SRC first but let the TF2 to do the job. Its especially good for 25 to 24fps conversion.
Having said that I prefer sometimes P 'n T for music stems and particularly for slow piano and strings material.
Didn't touch my X-Form for years now, even though TF2 takes time as you noticed.

jyellen 10-24-2020 12:58 AM

Re: X-form and pitch shifting
 
I'd like to resurrect this thread as it hasn't been commented on since 2016. I'm currently looking to pitch shift some 5.1 stems after doing an SRC to convert from 23.976 to 25fps. The SRC is complete and now I need to pitch back down to the original pitch.

I've tried Izotope RX 8 Time & Pitch (Radius setting) which sounded terrible. I also tried a demo of Elastique Pitch V2 which also sounded terrible. When I say terrible I mean robotic and totally unusable.

I finally tried X-Form (which I never liked in the past) out of desperation and it sounded surprisingly good on both 5.1 dialog stem and music stem; monophonic and polyphonic settings respectively.

I have yet to try Pitch n Time Pro as I can't find a demo on their site...am I missing it?

Can anyone steer me in the right direction here as to the best pitch shift plugin for audio post (specifically pitch shifting 5.1 mix stems as described above).

Thanks for your help.


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