Plugin assignments CHANGED in a saved session
 

I'm working on a session for the first time since upgrading to HDX from my old workhorse PCIx HD4Accel rig. It's on a hex-core Westmere with 24GB of RAM, running 10.7.3 and 10.1.2

As a PT user since 1991, I'm a little perplexed.

I was working on a sorta 'practice' session ... doing some mastering and messing around heavily with plugins to put this rig through its paces and acclimate a bit; lots of inserts going. Some Waves (S1 MS matrix and shuffler, MDW 3.0 Helios EQ, URS N series, Flux Bittersweet and Softube's Saturation. More than I'd typically use on anything in earnest, but many of these (outside of the MDW and S1 matrix/shuffle) are new to me, and I want to get an idea of what they do before going live-ammo with any of them.

Anyway, at some point in the session, I started hearing crackling if my master fader was down at zero, but it would clear up when it was anywhere above zero. I checked clock cable, toggled between internal/wordclock ... still persisted. I figured it was worth a restart. So, I saved the session and restarted.

Here's where it gets interesting.

When I restarted, relaunched PT, and re-opened the just-saved session, the crackling behavior was gone, but so were all instantiations of MDW, and I think, one instantiation of Softube Saturation Knob. Now, it's not that the inserts in question were blank, mind you .. they were OCCUPIED BY DUPLICATES OF OTHER PLUGINS FROM OTHER INSERTS ON THE TRACK (complete with the same settings from their original instantiations). ie: On one track, there was an additional D3 DeEsser where the MDW should have been AND where the Softube Saturation Knob should have been, and on another track, there was a duplicate Softube Saturaton Knob where the MDW should have been.

Perhaps it's noteworthy that I was using unlinked dual-mono versions (running in M-S between the Waves plugins) ... I dunno. But I can tell you, I won't be parting with my old rig anytime soon if I can't rely on Pro Tools to correctly save and recall my plugin assignments, let alone their settings. Especially in the case of the MDW EQ, this could cost me a TON of work, as getting the little cuts dialed in in M-S is probably the most critical thing I ever do with plugins.

Thankfully, this thing can't disappear any of my analog gear.

Has anyone seen this? I really hate being on the bleeding edge anymore.

-Dave

Re: Plugin assignments CHANGED in a saved session
 

Continuing this as a monologue ...

Did a test this morning. New session, 2 stereo audio tracks.

Audio 1:

• Insert A: Dyn3 De-Esser multi-mono, unlinked (DSP)
• Insert B: MDW 3.0 multi-mono, linked (Native)

Audio 2:

• Insert A: Dyn3 De-Esser multi-mono, unlinked (DSP)
• Insert B: MDW 3.0 multi-mono, unlinked (Native)

Save and close session.

Reopen session, and now it looks like this:

Audio 1:

• Insert A: Dyn3 De-Esser multi-mono, unlinked (DSP)
• Insert B: MDW 3.0 multi-mono, linked (Native)

Audio 2:

• Insert A: MDW 3.0 multi-mono, unlinked (Native)
• Insert B: MDW 3.0 multi-mono, unlinked (Native)

The problem only appeared on Audio 2, and this time, the duplicated plugin was the unlinked MDW itself (with the same settings as the other one).

On Audio 1, with the linked instance of MDW, there was no problem; no plugin substitution.

So .. seems maybe this is being triggered by unlinked multi-mono instances of MDW? Or somehow in combination?

Note that I have also attempted this with unlinked Channel Strip (DSP) in place of MDW, and it too copies over the instance of the De-Esser above it. I then tried putting an unlinked Softube Saturation Knob in place of the D3 De-esser, and it got written over by a copy of the Channel Strip plugin below it as well ..

It seems unlinked multi-mono is the problem here.

-Dave

edit: I have now tested this on earlier versions and 4 different Mac-based rigs, including non-HDX PT10 ... The behavior is consistent.

Re: Plugin assignments CHANGED in a saved session
 

I haven't seen that here but as an aside, things haven't been what they should be with unlinked multi mono plugs for many years.

On my old G5 HD3 accel PCI I found that unlinked 5.1 multi mono plugs by both Sonnox (the EQ) and GML would simply forget their settings.

I ended up splitting the stems into LR LS RS .1 and C tracks for reliability.

That was on tiger and PT 8.1cs2 I also used to do it on stereo overhead tracks and would find that my sonnox multi mono would have one side flat on reloading the session. Again I just split it onto mono tracks in the end.

Not being able to trust these lead me to abandon multi mono unlinked plug ins back then.

It's not exactly what your asking but I just thought I'd let you know my experiences with unlinked multi mono since way back on V8

It's also worth noting that saving an unlinked 5.1 GML as a preset then recalling it would also have the same undesired effect of not recalling anything but the setting on the top level of the display.

Re: Plugin assignments CHANGED in a saved session
 

Thanks, Neil.

Having made the jump from 7.4 straight to 10, I had no idea there were other issues with unlinked plugins.

It's unacceptable, of course. But pretty disappointing too.

FWIW, I've had a friend try the test I described on his HDX rig ... He was able to reproduce the exact same results consistently.

I'm busy re-assembling my old rig so I can get some work done this week.

-Dave

ps: as for saving presets/settings from within the plugin, as you described, I think that when you unlink you actually have to save the settings individually for each and every channel.

Re: Plugin assignments CHANGED in a saved session
 

Wow which makes it totally unusable as a work flow IMHO, also re the stereo unlinked that lost their settings, that was the case regardless of saving presets or not so something has been "funky" but not in a good way (like say The Meters) with multi mono plugs since at least V8.

As I no longer use unlinked MM plugs since that V8 experience, I've been rocking away nicely on this HDX rig, so I won't be reassembling my HD3.

I hope they get a fix for you soon.

Re: Plugin assignments CHANGED in a saved session
 

Out of curiosity does this happen in your backup sessions? So instead of opening your last "Main" session file... open the lastbackup... do the plug-ins still have issues?

I have had for years the issue of a Main session file (not regularly but upon occasion) becoming or saving corrupt data... the only way I have been able to get the session info back is the backup sessions folder... It seems more stable to "create a new session name (Each backup has a different name)" than to keep replacing your main session file.

Re: Plugin assignments CHANGED in a saved session
 

Yes.
This problem is different. Avid is aware of it now. It's easy enough to see, and completely repeatable:

• Create a new session
• Create two stereo audio tracks
• On the first track, add two multi-mono inserts, D3 De-Esser and Channel Strip
• On the second track, add the same two multi-mono inserts, but click the button to unlink them.
• Save and close the session.
• Re-open it.
• Voila. the track with the two unlinked inserts should have its assignments messed up. If you used insert A with D3DeEsser and insert B with Channel Strip, you'll now likely see Channel Strip in both inserts on that track.

I'm hoping a solution comes quickly ... this is a showstopper here.

-Dave

Re: Plugin assignments CHANGED in a saved session
 

Yes ,I tried it and got the same results

Re: Plugin assignments CHANGED in a saved session
 

For anyone who was interested, Avid did confirm the bug I described, and a fix was included in the 10.2 update this past Tuesday:

Sessions saved in Pro Tools 10.0 or 10.1 with unlinked multi-mono plug-ins may open with the wrong plug-ins inserted (PTSW-163664)

In some situations, sessions saved in Pro Tools 10.0 through 10.1 will open incorrectly. Sessions saved with unlinked, multi-mono plug-ins may open with the wrong plug-in on the track Insert. To resolve this issue, option the session in Pro Tools 10.2, re-insert the correct plug-in configuration if necessary, and then save the session.

Whew! ... Onward!
-Dave