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-   -   Pro Tools is very Good BUT (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=407024)

tonyreed 11-04-2019 03:41 AM

Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
after years and years of the same issues Im pretty much moving to Ableton. Im not saying that Ableton is better - although there are features that definitely are better - its just that I fundamentally don't like the PT business model and that combined with these never ending AAE issues is enough right now. I have been using Ableton for months now and I just don't get these continual AAE errors about CPU spikes etc or crashes. PT help was useless - just get more RAM i was told. The Forum help was very good and detailed. - Plug ins are the problem it seems. Either way it doesn't happen in Ableton. Other strange things would happen like PT not opening properly and I often need to re load the Interface under hardware engine to prevent nasty digital distortion. But what i really hate is the subscription based business model. i don't want to pay for upgrades before I even get to see them. It maybe that PT is not interested in people like me (Amateurs) and the whole thing is more geared to pro studios who are fine with the subscription and upgrades that are more about bigger and bigger. Dunno. Avid certainly aren't the only company that do this. What i will say though is that forums like this are excellent. I work in a business that spends Hundreds of thousands on engineering software. A lot of these guys have no bug register or forums at all. So there it is.

johnnyv 11-06-2019 06:34 PM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
If your primary use for a DAW is to create music, I think that in many ways almost any other DAW is at least equal to - if not better - than ProTools. I know many music-creators who are using Ableton, Cubase, FL Studio, Logic, Studio One, etc., and I'm sure that there are many advantages to those DAW's.

If you are working near or at the high end of the professional audio business, ProTools is pretty much the standard for mixing audio, post production audio, etc.

But you mentioned that you consider yourself an "amateur" and it seems as though you may be using your DAW primarily for music creation, and within that context, I think there are lots of good DAW options out there for you.

Good luck!

Stephen Bond 11-07-2019 03:11 AM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
Interesting post.

I agree. Pro Tools is far to pernickity and far from solid in everyday use. The volume of people complaining about constant errors is way too high and evidence enough.

Sure, other DAWs aren't perfect but Pro Tools acts like a fussy and petulant child rather than being a mature adult.

I was very disappointed when we were promised a rewrite from the ground up and AAE arrived to replace the DAE. It was clear much core code had be ported over with the inherent problems and the 9XXX errors continuing aplomb.

Give us bug fixes and a rock solid application like Pro Tools 5 of old for my upgrade plan money rather than features we neither need or want.

Stephen

PhilSchroeder 11-08-2019 09:26 AM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
I'd like to weigh in because this subject is near and dear to my heart. I'm a composer and have been a professional for thirty-plus years. But that's not the distinction that matters to me as much as being a musician. As a musician, there are ways of working in a DAW that I insist on, and they go back to the early days of music sequencing software (I was an Opcode guy, but there were others) where the whole point of recording MIDI events was to do it in real time and in a linear, tape machine fashion. There were two modes: replace and overdub. Seems simple enough and Digi stuck to this protocol and it has continued with Avid. I'm also big on transport simplicity; I want to plug in Bar 25 and start from bar 25 every time, until I change it. I don't want to drag my mouse to the starting point every time. With few exceptions, both of these functions and lots more are rock-freaking solid in Pro Tools. Other things, I agree, are a mess. (CPU management is a disaster but try Turbo Boost Manager, it helps a lot.) The ways that PT can fail seem endless and infinite, and Avid tech support has never, to this day, actually solved a problem for me. (Update: They have now fixed something!) They hide too much behind the "it's your plug-ins" excuse, they never seem to have seen *my* problem before, and it's pretty clear they don't read the DUC, where the best advice lives.

I spent two months with Studio One, as my audio dealer insisted it was the "new Pro Tools." It's not even close. Pretty, yes. Engine sounds good, check. But automation is a kindergarten implementation that is probably worse than Reason – if that's possible. And when recording MIDI notes, it overwrites notes I've already put in there. An impossible mess and I spend some time with a product supervisor who promised to "get right back to me," and you can guess where that went. Digital Performer isn't even worth discussing. Cubase was my last hope and the MIDI recording there is just unacceptable – and it's been that way for 20 years. So I don't think they're gonna fix it for me.

The problem is that being a composer isn't about playing your keyboard anymore, not to Presonus and Steinberg, at least. They're HUGE into chord tracks and "band in a box" stuff that makes clear they don't care about us real musicians anymore. They aren't marketing products for musicians, at least as I define the word.

Maybe your criteria are different than mine, but today, like every day, I want to hit record and start playing my keyboard. I want my notes captured as I play them. And when I trip up, I want to back up a few bars and punch back in. It's not that hard, and for me, only Pro Tools has remained true to that work flow. Other work flows in PT are still unmatched anywhere else, starting with digital editing. No one else comes close.

I agree that the subscription model is more extortion than not, but I also recall what updates used to cost ($750+) and it's at least possible that we're getting a better deal now – or close to breaking even.

Like you, I wanted desperately to leave Pro Tools for all of my grievances, but I've come to see that you have to pick your poison. I'm not a programmer, I don't know what it would really take to fix Pro Tools, but the percentage of time I spend working around the crap that sucks is way, way less than the impossibility posed by other DAWs...for me, at least.

Good luck!

TOM@METRO 11-08-2019 10:47 AM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
^^^ I like your post ^^^

jscomposer 11-08-2019 12:36 PM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilSchroeder (Post 2543979)
I'd like to weigh in because this subject is near and dear to my heart. I'm a composer and have been a professional for thirty-plus years. But that's not the distinction that matters to me as much as being a musician. As a musician, there are ways of working in a DAW that I insist on, and they go back to the early days of music sequencing software (I was an Opcode guy, but there were others) where the whole point of recording MIDI events was to do it in real time and in a linear, tape machine fashion. There were two modes: replace and overdub. Seems simple enough and Digi stuck to this protocol and it has continued with Avid. I'm also big on transport simplicity; I want to plug in Bar 25 and start from bar 25 every time, until I change it. I don't want to drag my mouse to the starting point every time! With few exceptions, both of these functions (and lots more) are rock-freaking solid in Pro Tools. Other things, I agree, are a mess. (CPU management is a disaster but try Turbo Boost Manager, it helps a lot.) The ways that PT can fail seem endless and infinite, and Avid tech support has never, to this day, actually solved a problem for me. They hide too much behind the "it's your plug-ins" excuse, they never seem to have seen *my* problem before, and it's pretty clear they don't read the DUC, where the best advice lives.

I spent two months with Studio One, as my audio dealer insisted it was the "new Pro Tools." It's not even close. Pretty, yes. Engine sounds good, check. But automation is a kindergarten implementation that is probably worse than Reason (if that's possible). And when recording MIDI notes, iit overwrites notes I've already put in there. An impossible mess and I spend some time with a product supervisor who promised to "get right back to me," and you can guess where that went. Digital Performer isn't even worth discussing. Cubase was my last hope and the MIDI recording there is just unacceptable – and it's been that way for 20 years. So I don't think they're gonna fix it for me.

The problem is that being a composer isn't about playing your keyboard anymore, not to Presonus and Steinberg, at least. They're HUGE into chord tracks and "band in a box" stuff that makes clear they don't care about us real musicians anymore. They are not marketing products for musicians, at least as I define that word.

Maybe your criteria are different than mine, but today, like every day, I want to hit record and start playing my keyboard. I want my notes captured as I play them. And when I trip up, I want to back up a few bars and punch back in. It's not that hard, and for me, only Pro Tools has remained true to that work flow. Other work flows in PT are still unmatched anywhere else, starting with digital editing. No one else comes close.

I agree that the subscription model is more extortion than not, but I also recall what updates used to cost ($750+) and it's at least possible that we're getting a better deal now – or close to breaking even.

Like you, I wanted desperately to leave Pro Tools for all of my grievances, but I've come to see that you have to pick your poison. I'm not a programmer, I don't know what it would really take to fix Pro Tools, but the percentage of time I spend working around the crap that sucks is way, way less than the impossibility posed by other DAWs...for me, at least.

Good luck!

My approach to recording MIDI is the same as yours. I perform it. I do takes. Which btw is why I recently posted my shock that PT doesn't allow playlists view on instrument tracks. So I don't even necessarily agree that it's optimized for MIDI performance.

There's 0 reason you can't perform MIDI in other DAWs like you're doing in PT. Though I somewhat agree on PT's performance. They've definitely gotten a bit better with the last few releases. But I still get occasional stoppage when using big VIs, and VI efficiency (or inefficiency) has long been an issue with PT.

I also disagree that Studio One looks pretty. :p

BSR6P-Bob 11-08-2019 12:49 PM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilSchroeder (Post 2543979)
I'd like to weigh in because this subject is near and dear to my heart. I'm a composer and have been a professional for thirty-plus years. But that's not the distinction that matters to me as much as being a musician. As a musician, there are ways of working in a DAW that I insist on, and they go back to the early days of music sequencing software (I was an Opcode guy, but there were others) where the whole point of recording MIDI events was to do it in real time and in a linear, tape machine fashion. There were two modes: replace and overdub. Seems simple enough and Digi stuck to this protocol and it has continued with Avid. I'm also big on transport simplicity; I want to plug in Bar 25 and start from bar 25 every time, until I change it. I don't want to drag my mouse to the starting point every time! With few exceptions, both of these functions (and lots more) are rock-freaking solid in Pro Tools. Other things, I agree, are a mess. (CPU management is a disaster but try Turbo Boost Manager, it helps a lot.) The ways that PT can fail seem endless and infinite, and Avid tech support has never, to this day, actually solved a problem for me. They hide too much behind the "it's your plug-ins" excuse, they never seem to have seen *my* problem before, and it's pretty clear they don't read the DUC, where the best advice lives.

I spent two months with Studio One, as my audio dealer insisted it was the "new Pro Tools." It's not even close. Pretty, yes. Engine sounds good, check. But automation is a kindergarten implementation that is probably worse than Reason (if that's possible). And when recording MIDI notes, iit overwrites notes I've already put in there. An impossible mess and I spend some time with a product supervisor who promised to "get right back to me," and you can guess where that went. Digital Performer isn't even worth discussing. Cubase was my last hope and the MIDI recording there is just unacceptable – and it's been that way for 20 years. So I don't think they're gonna fix it for me.

The problem is that being a composer isn't about playing your keyboard anymore, not to Presonus and Steinberg, at least. They're HUGE into chord tracks and "band in a box" stuff that makes clear they don't care about us real musicians anymore. They are not marketing products for musicians, at least as I define that word.

Maybe your criteria are different than mine, but today, like every day, I want to hit record and start playing my keyboard. I want my notes captured as I play them. And when I trip up, I want to back up a few bars and punch back in. It's not that hard, and for me, only Pro Tools has remained true to that work flow. Other work flows in PT are still unmatched anywhere else, starting with digital editing. No one else comes close.

I agree that the subscription model is more extortion than not, but I also recall what updates used to cost ($750+) and it's at least possible that we're getting a better deal now – or close to breaking even.

Like you, I wanted desperately to leave Pro Tools for all of my grievances, but I've come to see that you have to pick your poison. I'm not a programmer, I don't know what it would really take to fix Pro Tools, but the percentage of time I spend working around the crap that sucks is way, way less than the impossibility posed by other DAWs...for me, at least.

Good luck!

I find Cubase Pro 10 to be excellent recording midi for composition from the keyboard. While it has plenty of that band of the box whiz bang stuff on offer it's not in the way. You've got to dig it out to use it.

Dizzi45Z 11-08-2019 01:59 PM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
I LOVE Pro Tools software, but I agree that the subscription model just isn't the right direction for Avid. They don't update enough and their reinstatement plan is the dumbest of all dumb ideas.

I constantly see the following:
1. An "amateur" getting into recording purchases Pro Tools.
2. The software expires a year later.
3. They install the latest operating system and realize Pro Tools no longer runs.
4. They realize the penalty they face for letting their subscription lapse. They are upset.
5. They compare their reinstatement cost $299 with the cost of Logic $199 that has no subscription.
6. They purchase Logic.

Pro Tools loses so much of the future generation to Logic and other sequencers with the stupid reinstatement plan. How about just make the software so great that everyone wants to be current on their upgrade plans? Listen to what your users are asking for so that they want to stay upgraded.

metalmixer 11-08-2019 09:54 PM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
the logic UI is probably the worst piece of software UI I have ever used.
YUK!

Rectifried 11-09-2019 10:47 AM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
as a composer/ musician... and now mix engineer, recording etc.. I followed a typical arc of learning/ recording [4track cassette on up]
PT is still a nice clean solid layout to route and wrangle AUDIO.. after 20+years I know it.. but.. It is so fing Buggy sometimes..



13% cpu and -9xxx errors.. I have a SUPER cleaned INSTALL from this summer 12 core TCan 64g ram. .minimal programs.. no wifi.. BUt this tightrope SHOULD NOT be even thought about..



at this LATE stage in Computerworld..PT is still a beeatch.. and when its finally rolling along.. its like "Dont mention Ze war!" ie : dont even breathe on it! lol




I also use ableton a lot.. as its kind of a break from PT and "modern" music kind of pours out of it at quite a clip. BUT to finish important non cotton candy style music I feel PT is the finish line for ME.


Funnily watching a JJPuig vid with WHuart.. at the very end he JJP says "Ableton is the Best sounding DAW out there"...Hmm coming from a tweaker of the highest order interesting.. hearing that on an online forum It wouldnt even register..but hey JJP..


at 42:38 in.. he says it : ]



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adv2SpTXibg&t=2851s

tonyreed 11-09-2019 06:01 PM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
Interesting replies for sure.
PT just makes me nervous - as has been noted its just so dam fragile ( well that's what it feels like). I really don't understand why all the problems I kept having were supposedly the fault of 3rd party plug ins when i just don't get the same issues in Ableton. Maybe the problem being that PT loads them all up at login? So combining that with a subscription model and paying ahead for updates that never fixed these issues just became really irritating. i would add that I had to pay a fair bit for the Ableton license to start with - so that is a measure of my frustration. I get the feeling somewhat that Avid believes that once you are in its too hard to get out and that there is enough that is right with the software to render the other issues somewhat minor. Much like the banks here in OZ although Avid would have some way to go to compete with their level of bastardry.
I used the word amateur to describe my self and by that I meant that recording is not my source of income - BUT I have been at it for 25 years and i am a decent musician and i do record a lot of people in my studio - So i reckon a lot of people are like me? All part of the home recording revolution. Ableton is in many ways easier to use and has some cool features. If Avid is serious about people like me ( and who knows maybe the hi level guys win out here) they could do well to recognise these issues.

PhilSchroeder 11-10-2019 03:57 PM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BSR6P-Bob (Post 2544006)
I find Cubase Pro 10 to be excellent recording midi for composition from the keyboard. While it has plenty of that band of the box whiz bang stuff on offer it's not in the way. You've got to dig it out to use it.

I'd love to discuss it with you, because it's a disaster for me. The modes are not replace and overdub; it's three modes and they all do something a little weird. I'm not in need of making it work, but I'd sure be interested in your tips. Feel free to message me.

jasonkalman 11-10-2019 05:05 PM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by metalmixer (Post 2544035)
the logic UI is probably the worst piece of software UI I have ever used.
YUK!

+1

capt kirk 11-10-2019 06:27 PM

Re: Pro Tools is very Good BUT
 
who cares what he thinks? I had a 'guy' tell me once the Trident 80b was the best sounding console ever?!?1?


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