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-   -   Cinema mixing levels poll (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=387744)

Steven1145 01-04-2017 09:42 AM

Cinema mixing levels poll
 
https://goo.gl/forms/8bK5mvxxWFEezdhx1

Hi all,
in an effort to get as much data as possible about cinema mixing levels around the world, I have created a short poll.
It would be great if as many people could answer the questions.

Thanks

reichman 01-04-2017 02:45 PM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Can you share the results when you're done? It's anonymous data right?

Steven1145 01-04-2017 02:50 PM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Yes I will gladly share the results, as it's important information for all of us in this field. And the poll is anonymous, which I think is important if I want people to answer truthfully.
Please do share the link within the community if you have a few minutes.

sent from my Galaxy S7 Edge

Marco Bernardo 01-04-2017 02:55 PM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Submitted :)

Happy New Year

Postman 01-04-2017 08:52 PM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
An older thread seems as relevant today as it was 5.5 years ago.

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=300904

joachim 01-05-2017 06:26 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven1145 (Post 2404928)
I have created a short poll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reichman (Post 2404983)
Can you share the results when you're done?

When will the poll be finished ?

Cheesehead 01-05-2017 07:33 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
This is a good idea, it'll be interesting to see the results.

Like all these multiple choice things it doesn't allow for the level of accuracy answering these questions that would be really interesting.

for example a lot of people will prep a mix in a smaller room and final in a big Theatre, that's not really covered in this.

At the end of the day I think we need an agreed loudness standard for film, similar to R128 in broadcast and we can get back to enjoying mixing.

Steven1145 01-05-2017 07:33 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
I'd like to keep it running for 5 to 10 days to get as many responses as possible.

sent from my Galaxy S7 Edge

joachim 01-05-2017 07:41 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Thanks.
(I expect the dialog LUFS at 85dBspl to be -33 +/-3 ...)

Steven1145 01-05-2017 07:52 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesehead (Post 2405086)

for example a lot of people will prep a mix in a smaller room and final in a big Theatre, that's not really covered in this.
.

I know, that was why I created two different poll questions for predubs and finals. There are many other technical details that could have been covered, but in all honesty I'm not sure I would be able to interpret them nor find how relevant they are to the big picture, which is the recurring issue of cinema sound levels.

Cheesehead 01-05-2017 08:18 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

(I expect the dialog LUFS at 85dBspl to be -33 +/-3 ...)
I would agree with that Joachim, that's what my mixes come out at also.
It would be a good basis of a 'standard'.

Quote:

I know, that was why I created two different poll questions for predubs and finals. There are many other technical details that could have been covered, but in all honesty I'm not sure I would be able to interpret them nor find how relevant they are to the big picture, which is the recurring issue of cinema sound levels.
Understood, good that we're all on the same page.

yoerik roevens 01-05-2017 08:19 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesehead (Post 2405086)

At the end of the day I think we need an agreed loudness standard for film, similar to R128 in broadcast and we can get back to enjoying mixing.

Sorry to say, but that's a terrible idea. Only thing that must happen is that studio's and theaters start respecting the standards again.

Why is it a bad idea in short?

Loudness standard for broadcast is there so there are no big jumps between channels and stations. After all, the viewer has the remote and controls the listening level to taste. What happens if you use a loudness standard in a theater where the viewer cannot do this? A film like Mad Max or 300 will sound as loud or soft as a very quiet intimistic film. It`s like having a standard for concerts that says that a concert by Metallica should sound exactly as loud as a piano piece by Satie.

Keep in mind that R128 was developed specifically for broadcast and all tests where done at 65dBa (if I remember correct, it`s in the papers), which is way softer than cinema.

Keep in mind that R128 loudness metering is intended for programs with dynamic range smaller than +-20 dB (max 'range' you can measure is about 26 dB).

This summer I was sent a document by some Dutch guys who are trying to get loudness standards into cinema.

I did a small test which is very easy to setup, both with test tones/noises and actual footage.

1) I took a rough mix of a quiet short film I was working on, which measured -43.3 LUFS.
2) I boosted it with a MB compressor and limiter to -27.8 dB (which didn`t sound great, but still acceptable)
3) To both versions I added a 30s helicopter sound at a random spot in the film (same spot of course in both versions) of -16,9 LUFS
4) V1 (the quiet one) now measures - 19.7 LUFS, V2 (the compressed loud one) just -26.1 LUFS

So when working with dynamic material, it' s perfectly possible and very easy to make mixes that measure far less loudness, while they actually are much louder.

Besides, think of a theatre as a concert hall. You simply don't want every film to sound equally loud. That's exactly why the current standard is there and it should be defended by all means imo.

yoerik 01-05-2017 11:44 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yoerik roevens (Post 2405097)
This summer I was sent a document by some Dutch guys who are trying to get loudness standards into cinema.

to be slightly more precise, the paper was not so much about a loudness standard, but rather about maximum levels using loudness measuring, but that runs into exactly the same problems.

yoerik 01-05-2017 11:56 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yoerik roevens (Post 2405097)
...big jumps between channels and stations.

I can't edit right now as I'm logged in under another account, but of course I meant channels and programs :rolleyes:

Cheesehead 01-05-2017 04:22 PM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Don't get me wrong Yoerik, I totally agree with you, they should just turn back up to 7 and we could all be happy.

I don't know what the answer is? There is no overall body that could control what Cinema owners do anyway, so even if a new standard was set, it probably wouldn't be adhered to.

Branko 01-06-2017 04:57 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesehead:
At the end of the day I think we need an agreed loudness standard for film, similar to R128 in broadcast and we can get back to enjoying mixing.
Quote:

Originally Posted by yoerik roevens (Post 2405097)
Sorry to say, but that's a terrible idea. Only thing that must happen is that studio's and theaters start respecting the standards again.

Seems we quickly forgot some things from our recent history. Until the DCPs took over, we always lived with limitations, which is a true name for standards. Let me remind you:

While mixing for Dolby Digital (which has 20 dB of headroom over 85), we had to live with limitations - those of analog soundtracks (100% modulation was 6dB above 85) that served as a backup in case of DD failure during the playback in cinemas. Consequently, you could not make your mix louder than what was permitted by physical limitations of an optical soundtrack, because there would be a huge difference in levels, and "seamless switching" between analog and digital would be impossible. Dolby Consultants would attend print mastering sessions and assure this request was respected. The great difference between digital and analog was (apart from discrete surrounds and LFE) in transients.
Loudness wars started immediately after analog disappeared from our workflow - engineers were quick to fill the empty space above -20 FS and make "louder" mixes.

So, to recap, you cannot just simply go back to pre-DCP standards, because the conditions have changed, and there's nothing (and no one) to tell you where's the limit. As Cheesehead says, we need some new standards/limitations.

Steven1145 01-06-2017 05:05 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Branko, Phillip Newel reminded us of that also in an interesting article in the latest issue of Resolution.

simonchase 01-06-2017 06:49 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
I can't imagine any cinema chain will listen to a bunch of sound guys. But they'd listen to studio bosses. When we get the opportunity we need to encourage those up the food chain to step in. Their product is not being presented in the way they want it to be. Studio heads could even sanction cinema chains who don't playback the film as intended by the film makers with random spot checks by Dolby. Maybe CAS should make a representation to the big studios and see what can be done. Convince the studios that it's in their interest to police the cinema experience as they're being sold short.

yoerik roevens 01-06-2017 08:22 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesehead (Post 2405213)
Don't get me wrong Yoerik, I totally agree with you, they should just turn back up to 7 and we could all be happy.

I don't know what the answer is? There is no overall body that could control what Cinema owners do anyway, so even if a new standard was set, it probably wouldn't be adhered to.

I totaly agree.

As far as I can see, the only solution would be a forced QC before films are allowed to be released in theaters. Such a QC department would be set up and led by people representing theaters as well as mixing studios and would check both playback and mixing levels.

Of course that seems like a very eutopic idea, but as far as I have been trying to see there's no possible way for automated QC or limiting tech specs within the dynamic realm of cinema. After all, mixing for film should about craftsmanship, artistry and taste, not about squeezing mixes into narrow boxes.

yoerik roevens 01-06-2017 08:23 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simonchase (Post 2405348)
I can't imagine any cinema chain will listen to a bunch of sound guys. But they'd listen to studio bosses. When we get the opportunity we need to encourage those up the food chain to step in. Their product is not being presented in the way they want it to be. Studio heads could even sanction cinema chains who don't playback the film as intended by the film makers with random spot checks by Dolby. Maybe CAS should make a representation to the big studios and see what can be done. Convince the studios that it's in their interest to police the cinema experience as they're being sold short.

+100

yoerik roevens 01-06-2017 08:36 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Branko (Post 2405332)
Seems we quickly forgot some things from our recent history. Until the DCPs took over, we always lived with limitations, which is a true name for standards. Let me remind you:

While mixing for Dolby Digital (which has 20 dB of headroom over 85), we had to live with limitations - those of analog soundtracks (100% modulation was 6dB above 85) that served as a backup in case of DD failure during the playback in cinemas. Consequently, you could not make your mix louder than what was permitted by physical limitations of an optical soundtrack, because there would be a huge difference in levels, and "seamless switching" between analog and digital would be impossible. Dolby Consultants would attend print mastering sessions and assure this request was respected. The great difference between digital and analog was (apart from discrete surrounds and LFE) in transients.
Loudness wars started immediately after analog disappeared from our workflow - engineers were quick to fill the empty space above -20 FS and make "louder" mixes.

So, to recap, you cannot just simply go back to pre-DCP standards, because the conditions have changed, and there's nothing (and no one) to tell you where's the limit. As Cheesehead says, we need some new standards/limitations.

I agree partly, however, 'pre-DCP'-standards are still in place, although they're not updated for new audio formats. It`s just people not respecting them.
This is an interesting read: https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...o-Vessa-v2.pdf

I agree calibration practice might need an update. But reference calibration is the only way to go in cinema. Loudness metering makes no sense at all. In the current loudness metering scheme roughly said (!!!) everything below the top 20 dBFS is ignored as being noise, which makes no sense at all. One could enlarge the loudness window/lower the noise threshold, but then the measured loudness makes even less sense.

joachim 01-06-2017 09:08 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yoerik roevens (Post 2405366)
Loudness metering makes no sense at all. In the current loudness metering scheme roughly said (!!!) everything below the top 20 dBFS is ignored as being noise, which makes no sense at all. One could enlarge the loudness window/lower the noise threshold, but then the measured loudness makes even less sense.

When only the dia bus/stem is measured, it would be different/precise. (Like the dialnorm for AC3). Or ?

yoerik roevens 01-06-2017 09:38 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joachim (Post 2405369)
When only the dia bus/stem is measured, it would be different/precise. (Like the dialnorm for AC3). Or ?

that would make more sense imo, at least for the majority of commercial films that are dialogue based. However, I'm not a fan of implying strict norms here. Especially not loudness norms. After all, dialogue levels also vary depending on style and context and using program loudness metering we might end up in situations where we have to remix an entire film (or large parts of it) when a director decides to last minute remove or add a scene. Also, not all films are wall-to-wall stuffed with in your face dialogue.

Steven1145 01-06-2017 09:38 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Dialnorm is meant to be measured across a complete mix, it's the level of the mix in places where dialog exists. I was told once at a technical committee here in France that it would totally unpractical to measure only the dialog bus because the measurement sometimes takes place in the video lab where the separate stems are not available.

Steven1145 01-06-2017 09:40 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yoerik roevens (Post 2405376)
that would make more sense imo, at least for the majority of commercial films that are dialogue based. However, I'm not a fan of implying strict norms here. Especially not loudness norms. After all, dialogue levels also vary depending on style and context and using program loudness metering we might end up in situations where we have to remix an entire film (or large parts of it) when a director decides to last minute remove or add a scene. Also, not all films are wall-to-wall stuffed with in your face dialogue.

Yes but as some point one has to place some faith in the mixers, and have them choose a number of scenes to make dialog measurements, not an Integrated measurement of the whole movie (which would not make sense as some films have hardly any dialog, others are wall to wall blab).

yoerik roevens 01-06-2017 09:50 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven1145 (Post 2405378)
Yes but as some point one has to place some faith in the mixers, and have them choose a number of scenes to make dialog measurements, not an Integrated measurement of the whole movie (which would not make sense as some films have hardly any dialog, others are wall to wall blab).

Exactly, and that's the whole point, if we could restore faith in the mixers (who are often pressed by directors and producers to deliver bad/overly loud mixes), and theaters (who are often pressed by a tiny group of customers as well as bad isolation between the rooms to take things down) we wouldn't need any of that and could just go with a good reference standard again.
I think we all agree mixing and playback levels are going through some kind of crisis right now, but let's not panic and settle too quickly for bad solutions, like loudness metering (imo).
We're not gonna solve this today, but we must keep trying ;)

dr sound 01-06-2017 01:19 PM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
See this is what I question....
I can take any film for example that was mixed at
Sony Pictures
Warner Brothers
Fox
Disney
Universal
Technicolor
Formoss


and play them at "The Dub Stage" and they will all be in the ballpark.
Why, because all of them if mixed in a Feature Dubbing Stage at any of the above
Studios use one common thing.. A Calibrated Room at 85, 7 on The Dolby Box.
Now that is not to say some may sound different from other as we all know not everyone mixes Dialog the same, Music or SFX the same BUT they all mix at 7.
Personally I do not know anyone at the above studios that changes their monitor level. Now sure some of the lower budget movies that have a limited budget get mixed in small TV rooms or editorial suites and their levels are usually way off the mark but even those clients usually will playback the mix at a Feature Dubbing Stage to at least get a sense of how their mix sounds in a bigger venue.

This has been my experience.
My experience when I go to Audience Test Screenings that I mix that nearly always have Dolby Theatrical Engineers calibrate the room my mixes are right on the money. I have never adjusted the little orange remote box more that +/- 1 db EVER!
While I am at these test screenings we always do a morning "run through" to listen and check both sound and picture. We usually have 4-6 hours of waiting for the screening to start typically at 7:30 pm. With this free time I have access to the projection booth of the complex and it can have anywhere between 6 and 30 Theaters. I go by every room and look at the monitor box and not 1 is set for Dolby 7… NOT ONE! They are typically 4.5- 5.5, occasionally 6.
So if we use the Dolby Formula of 7= 85 spl
The Theaters are playing back:
4.5= 76 spl
5= 78.33 spl
5.5 = 80 spl
6.0= 81 spl

Now here is the heart of the issue:
We Re-Recording Mixers can’t get a proper translation when the
Mix we do is 9+ db DOWN.
What is the first thing that happens, the audience has a hard time hearing the Dialog, you know the foundation of the story. We loose their attention, their minds drift away from the story and the ability to connect with the actors on the screen.
This is a vicious circle that we need to find an answer.
If every theater played back the picture through a projector that was only 5ft Lamberts bright every Director, Cinematographer, Producer and Actor would be up in arms! The same thing is happening with our playback of the Sound Mix!
We need to find an answer.

Branko 01-07-2017 03:42 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yoerik roevens (Post 2405366)
I agree partly, however, 'pre-DCP'-standards are still in place, although they're not updated for new audio formats. It`s just people not respecting them.
This is an interesting read: https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...o-Vessa-v2.pdf

I agree calibration practice might need an update. But reference calibration is the only way to go in cinema. Loudness metering makes no sense at all. In the current loudness metering scheme roughly said (!!!) everything below the top 20 dBFS is ignored as being noise, which makes no sense at all. One could enlarge the loudness window/lower the noise threshold, but then the measured loudness makes even less sense.

Allow me to disagree with some of your points.
Standards were implemented and enforced by a company (Dolby), not by any government or other law enforcement organisation.
These were respected for two main reasons: 1. you could not go over without damaging the equipment and 2. In order to use the technology, producers had to sign a contract with Dolby, who was protecting their technology.
Let me explain further: when the reference level was set at 85 for 50% mod, it had to do with available physical space on 35mm prints. You simply could not go over max modulation, because Lt and Rt tracks would collide, full stop.
Most optical sound negative recorders were Westrex type, with string light valves. You go over - you burn them. That's 5000 dollars, and several days of downtime. That was how the standard was implemented!
When we switched to DAWs for editing and digital mixing consoles, it was a general consensus to adopt 20 dB of headroom, as that was available in most analog consoles. Having both analog and digital tracks on prints, the "levels standard" was still preserved. As a result, transients on analog tracks (gunshots, punches, slaps, door slams etc) sounded muffled compared to DD or DTS, but the overall loudness was set relative to analog mix. As I said in my previous post, you could go for another 6 dB over 85 for full modulation, and there was a space for another 3-4 dB before you burn the optical recorder.
In conclusion, there were 10 dB left, which you could not use.

These "extra" 10 dB are available now, so the "standard" is gone, and there's no point in respecting the standard, because it will not yield expected results.

If we want to have the situation controlled again, the calibration levels should be changed.
Why 85? Why not 87 or 82 or 79? Because it used to be "safe" when analog tracks were dominant.
Most of the audience's complaints are about extreme levels. We know these levels have raised by 10dB SPL when DCPs took over 35mm. It is a question of simply putting them back where they used to sit.
And we can also speak of increase in HF contents in modern soundtracks, if we want to broaden the discussion.

Frank Kruse 01-08-2017 05:59 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
See here:

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=329889

Gregor has written a very good paper about this topic some years ago with tons of measurements of films from different countries and genres.

Not sure if the paper or his results are public somewhere.

Maybe Gregor will chime in...

Frank.

joachim 01-08-2017 07:01 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Kruse (Post 2405672)
Not sure if the paper or his results are public somewhere.

Could be this one : https://opus4.kobv.de/opus4-filmuniv.../BonseDipl.pdf
It is in German.
If I understand this correctly, he measured the loudness of a lot of movies (absolute loudness of the master), than played those back at his personal playback level, some at Dolby 6, some at 5, some at 4, some at 7.5, ... (page 67).
The correlation of those values (e.g. Dialog LUFS of master measured is -27, but played back at 5, so correlated level is -27 LUFS + -6.6 = -33,6 LUFS) can be seen on page 68.
Dialog levels are close together.

Frank Kruse 01-08-2017 07:03 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joachim (Post 2405677)
Could be this one : https://opus4.kobv.de/opus4-filmuniv.../BonseDipl.pdf
It is in German.
If I understand this correctly, he measured the loudness of a lot of movies (absolute loudness of the master), than played those back at his personal playback level, some at Dolby 6, some at 5, some at 4, some at 7.5, ... (page 67).
The correlation of those values (e.g. Dialog LUFS of master measured is -27, but played back at 5, so correlated level is -27 LUFS + -6.6 = -33,6 LUFS) can be seen on page 68.
Dialog levels are close together.

Thanks, he also wrote the whole thing in English, so maybe that's available too? (I actually have it but I'm not going to post without Gregor's permission)

But Steven, you should get in touch with Gregor. He has tons of experience and invested a lot of "brain matter" in this topic already.

F.

mik 01-08-2017 10:21 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
I would be so happy to have that in english...

Steven1145 01-08-2017 10:27 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
If I understand you correctly Frank, he played back the movies so that the dialogue was in the same ballpark for all movies. I think that a dialog loudness information value could be a first step in making some sense in terms of playback in cinemas, while leaving the dynamics of a movie untouched. An information value (that influences the playback level) leaves way more freedom than a dialogue loudness target (like R128 is applied in many territories).
But I would definitely love to read the report in English also (my German is too poor) and get in touch with Gregor.

sent from my Galaxy S7 Edge

Gregor B. 01-08-2017 12:55 PM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Hi Steven

The English version of the document can be found here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sf2nliwhot...SBERG.pdf?dl=0

It goes through all the different aspects of the topic. It also covers many of the arguments mentioned in this thread whether or not a standard should be established.
For the ones who have limited time, I suggest reading introduction and conclusion first and taking it from there.

Best
Gregor Bonse

Steven1145 01-08-2017 01:09 PM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Many thanks, I'll keep you posted on the results of the survey.

sent from my Galaxy S7 Edge

Steven1145 01-09-2017 05:11 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Hey all,
I'll be closing the survey around Friday I think. So please pass the link around so that we can gather as many answers as possible. Cheers

thierryd 01-09-2017 05:12 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor B. (Post 2405740)
For the ones who have limited time, I suggest reading introduction and conclusion first and taking it from there.

I did just that and glanced over the rest of the document.
This is a VERY interesting study. I would say a must-read for anybody involved in film mixing!
Did you ever try to present it to AES (locally or internationally)?

There is some cross-posting of Steven's poll between different forums. It might be interesting to repost your pdf link at Gearslutz as well in this thread:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/post...ng-levels.html

Greetings,

Thierry

Steven1145 01-09-2017 05:36 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Food for thought: http://isdcf.com/papers/ISDCF-Doc11-...nt20160315.pdf
Ioan Allen

yoerik 01-18-2017 10:57 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Very interesting reads, thanks to the posters!

In the end there seem to be 2 main reasons why levels are being turned down:

1) too loud mixes
2) a different opinion between mixers and theatres how loud films should be played.

1) could possibly be tackled by mixing specs, at the huge risk of putting serious constraints on the filmmakers/mixers creativity and intentions, and giving up all headroom

2) this is not a technical issue and cannot be solved by any mixing specs nor calibration. No matter how tight you make the specs, if they turn it down, they turn it down and it will sound... quieter

So - as pointed out in the last document - the main issue is who should be in charge of playback levels.
Is it the duty of the theatres to get as close to the filmmaker's intentions as possible, then the key is universal calibration and fixed playback levels.
If however you look at a theatre as a marketplace to sell movies, it's up to the theatres.
Therefore I believe right now it's much more important to get the debate going on whose call it is and finding a concensus between all parties before getting into technical details. Right now it seems a lot of effort is being put in technical details without seeing the bigger picture. It's like picking the wallpaper before buying the house.

simonchase 01-19-2017 03:10 AM

Re: Cinema mixing levels poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yoerik (Post 2407931)
2) a different opinion between mixers and theatres how loud films should be played.

The theatres should not have a say in the matter. If the film is too loud for their tastes then they shouldn't screen it.

What if a theatre chain decided the acting of Tom Hanks was not to their taste? Do they screen his films but re-edit them without him in? Dub him with a different voice and superimpose somebody else's face onto him? You shouldn't be able to cherrypick from a movie's artistic choices.

Cinemas turn down the volume because it's easy to do so and nobody stops them. Only movie studios can stop them, and movie studios seem to have no appetite to do so.

IMHO we should mix at 7 for the premier, and lobby our bosses to lay down the law with the cinemas.


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