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-   -   HD Native Personal Mini Review (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=286773)

Tom Hartman 11-12-2010 08:58 PM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gearjunkie (Post 1701533)
Thanks for the review Tom! I have been waiting to see how this system performs.

I am currently using Pro Tools 9/Apogee Symphony/Rosetta 800 with a 12 core Mac and am getting similar performance from the tests I have run so far. Only issue is if I ever need direct monitoring I don't have the option to date in PT9.

I need to run Logic 9 as well. Have you tried the new card with other software using the new Core Audio Driver for PT Native?

Yes and so far Logic does not like.

I went over to Logic tonight for a minute to export something and as soon as I opened the session I started receiving "Unable to Synchronize audio and midi...sampling rate 38 (something) )." I got the hell out of there. The last time that happened my card died;)

I will be trying it some more tomorrow. This is with the latest version of Logic, whatever was just released a few days back...

Tom

Tom Hartman 11-12-2010 08:59 PM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gearjunkie (Post 1701533)
Thanks for the review Tom! I have been waiting to see how this system performs.

I am currently using Pro Tools 9/Apogee Symphony/Rosetta 800 with a 12 core Mac and am getting similar performance from the tests I have run so far. Only issue is if I ever need direct monitoring I don't have the option to date in PT9.

I need to run Logic 9 as well. Have you tried the new card with other software using the new Core Audio Driver for PT Native?

BTW, that's a rockin' system, I had that with Logic at one point. Sounds killer too!

Tom

Eric Lambert 11-12-2010 09:39 PM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
Nice review.

One element is a bit deceiving though. An HD1 is more powerful than Native in nearly every way. Having more voices, as Native does, isn't exactly a factor of "power." Adding off-board DSP and TDM capability in ADDITION to RTAS would certainly qualify as more power. And you're running into CPU issues, and having to play with buffer sizes to navigate around recording delays, so, again, it's not quite more powerful than your HD1, though your track count is higher which is a minor big-picture issue, but still important.

KingFish 11-12-2010 09:49 PM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Lambert (Post 1701656)
Nice review.

One element is a bit deceiving though. An HD1 is more powerful than Native in nearly every way. Having more voices, as Native does, isn't exactly a factor of "power." Adding off-board DSP and TDM capability in ADDITION to RTAS would certainly qualify as more power. And you're running into CPU issues, and having to play with buffer sizes to navigate around recording delays, so, again, it's not quite more powerful than your HD1, though your track count is higher which is a minor big-picture issue, but still important.

Hey Eric. On an HD1, if you use RTAS after TDM, or on Any aux's, Voices are used... infact 4 voices on an Aux on HD for RTAS

You run out of voices pretty quick, trying to use an HD1 the way you'd use Native.

You might only get 32 tracks on an HD1 if you're using lots of RTAS, Aux's routing etc.

Tom Hartman 11-12-2010 10:10 PM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Lambert (Post 1701656)
Nice review.

One element is a bit deceiving though. An HD1 is more powerful than Native in nearly every way. Having more voices, as Native does, isn't exactly a factor of "power." Adding off-board DSP and TDM capability in ADDITION to RTAS would certainly qualify as more power. And you're running into CPU issues, and having to play with buffer sizes to navigate around recording delays, so, again, it's not quite more powerful than your HD1, though your track count is higher which is a minor big-picture issue, but still important.

I'm not sure I've ever met anyone who thinks track count is minor;)

I've had them both now. What little DSP supplied by the single HD1 card is more than offset by the power of the Mac Pro. In other words, even though you have BOTH on an HD1, it's not really doing much for you that the Mac can't already do with no problem. HD3, yep, now your talking, but not HD1. By the time I had an even halfway decent mix set up, I would go to use HEAT and it would say "NOT ENOUGH DSP FOR HEAT" lol....

The buffer size thing again is more of a sign of PT's CPU inefficiency right now than a slam at native. I spent way more time trying to niggle RTAS vs TDM plug ins to save voices than the few seconds it takes to change a buffer, and I changed the buffer in HD as well at mix stage anyway, since all the TDM cards in the world won't help you with live VI's and RTAS. Again, if we are talking a bigger TDM system, yeah, love it. But not HD1. And to get that bigger TDM system, you find yourself spending way too much money for technology that old. I mean TDM cards aren't exactly U67s from an investment standpoint.

So it was the right answer for me.

TH

Eric Lambert 11-13-2010 12:18 AM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
Everybody's different. I have LE systems with various interfaces. Also HD1, HD2 and HD3 systems. Some on PPC and others on Intel machines. Some Macs are a week old, others a few years. Each room has difference preference settings honed for that particular studio and type of session (post or music or both). At home I use an HD1 for writing and I've never run into a roadblock because of voices. I understand that some people do, obviously, but I'd sooner give up a higher voice count than the entire world of TDM and the benefits it brings. Some mandatory plugins are still TDM, and zero latency is simply a must. I'm not saying you need it, I'm saying I need it.

I lived with an RTAS system as long as I could but eventually had to bite the bullet. I was hoping Native would make non-HD viable again, and in most ways it is, but TDM brings more power to my sessions, and less latency. It's funny but that's about ALL that's different these days (now that ADC is global), but those things are huge to me. As a guy who uses many VIs, offloading certain processing to TDM is a huge help.

acmost 11-13-2010 03:14 AM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
Okay HD2 guy here again...and yeah on bigger mixes I have to do the TDM to RTAS switch here & there to make the voice count work but I usually make it work...or somebody will have to share a Revibe if push comes to shove. I still love hardly ever seeing the change buffer setting thing especially on tracking.

...but the Native thing still intrigues me. The one with the card & without.
So what again does the Native PCIe card give you other than the ability to hook up Digi/Avid boxes? What is the advantage over say a Lynx AES16 or etc etc etc? How does it guarantee you the "no" latency thing? Is the lowest buffer 32 samples on it with your rig at 48?

I still don't quite get it. Again thanks for the review.

Tom Hartman 11-13-2010 06:35 AM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
Eric, you probably haven't run into voice problems because you aren't mixing or trying to mix I should say, on an HD1 with lots of tracks. Nice that you have so many systems, I only have one, and it has to handle high track counts.

"but TDM brings more power to my sessions, and less latency."

Again, HD1 I can't see that HD1 brings more power to your sessions than HD Native, and latency is a non factor (you will not experience it, I hate it too and you just don't feel it with Native even at 128), although it does allow you to use HEAT and Phoenix, which I miss already. I was only using the demos but they are huge. I'm betting you'll see both of them RTAS in the future, although not the near future. Money talks after all and a LOT of people want it. I don't know any other TDM only plug ins I'd feel lost not having.

I do want to get an UA DUO card though!

TH

nst7 11-13-2010 07:02 AM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
To ACMost,

HD Native has a few advantages over "normal" native.

You can have up to 64 I/O vs. 32.

You can use the various Satellite Link and Video Satellite products, as well as Sync HD.

I'm not sure about how the latency thing works, but part of it is that the new HD interfaces, because of the design, have lower latency at a given buffer than would normally be the case. Also, I think the card itself provides 2 channels of ultra low latency monitoring. There's a thread on Gearslutz where Tony Cariddi from Avid explains it a bit:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/pro-t...hd-native.html


Also, there's something to be said about the peace of mind of having an integrated hardware/software solution from the same company.

And, if someone didn't have a PT9 Crossgrade option, and didn't already own the Complete Toolkit, and wanted to put together a system using something like the Lynx AES16 and a decent converter, their price would be in the same ballpark as one of the HD Native bundles, so it becomes more competitive at that point.

Eric Lambert 11-13-2010 04:50 PM

Re: HD Native Personal Mini Review
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hartman (Post 1701812)
Eric, you probably haven't run into voice problems because you aren't mixing or trying to mix I should say, on an HD1 with lots of tracks.

I've mixed huge sessions on an HD1. I haven't had much trouble being efficient with my track layout.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hartman (Post 1701812)
...you just don't feel (latency) with Native even at 128

I've tried 128 and indeed I do feel it. Not with instruments with a slow attack but with drums or quick keyboard parts it's an issue. The delay kills the vibe.


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