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-   -   Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because... (https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=364031)

huzzam 02-05-2015 07:32 AM
Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Avid will never see another dollar, euro, Turkish lira, or Madagascar Ariary (had to look that up) from me again, unless they change from this subscription madness. I'm a musician, working on my own projects, and not running a big studio. $30 a month or $300 a year is a complete non-starter, especially given that missing a month means a complete lack of access to old projects.

So I guess I'm sticking with PT 11 till I die... Good thing I mostly like it...

~peter in istanbul

ps-- why did the "I" in "I don't care about the release date" get turned into "bleep?"

musicman691 02-05-2015 07:36 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by huzzam (Post 2229461)
Avid will never see another dollar, euro, Turkish lira, or Madagascar Ariary (had to look that up) from me again, unless they change from this subscription madness. I'm a musician, working on my own projects, and not running a big studio. $30 a month or $300 a year is a complete non-starter, especially given that missing a month means a complete lack of access to old projects.

So I guess I'm sticking with PT 11 till I die... Good thing I mostly like it...

~peter in istanbul

ps-- why did the "I" in "I don't care about the release date" get turned into "bleep?"
There's no need to go subscription; you can always get on the support plan at $199 US. Do that and you have a permanent license unlike the subscription model.

huzzam 02-05-2015 07:41 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Are you sure? This is from an email from Bobby Owsinski:

Quote:
Pro Tools 12 will only be available via subscription. You can either go month to month at $29.95 per month or $299 per year, or get a "perpetual" license that allows you to purchase the software for $899. You also need a subscription for your hardware as well so that the software continues to work with it.

Here's the rub - If you stop paying your monthly subscription, the Pro Tools software will disappear from your computer. And a perpetual license is of little help since you still have to pay $899 per year to get any support or upgrades. Stop paying and the app remains on your computer, but no updates are available to you.

Drew Mazurek 02-05-2015 08:21 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
You can buy a perpetual license and use it forever, at that version. It will never "disappear" from your computer unless you delete it.

Park Seward 02-05-2015 11:18 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
If you have a subscription that lapses, do you then use your perpetual license? I assume Pro Tools goes back to the last perpetual version and the subscription version either goes away or is simply "turned off".

Does your old perpetual license stop working when your subscription lapses? It should not but I haven't seen all the facts yet.

Does the subscription enable the most current version of software or the last working version you had on your computer? While on subscription, do you get updates?

lexaudio 02-05-2015 11:22 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Ok, here is the real truth and "rub". The mods and AVID like to "steer" you away from this very fact.

Yes, if you have a perpetual license, it will not go away. If you have a subscription it will.

So let's say, you buy the 199 annual "extortion support" and in a year, when it is up for "renewal", you either don't have the money at that point, or AVID has put nothing of value into the software that you need at that time.

While your license will remain at that version, let's say V12.2.1. That is the last version you will be able to use.
You will not be able to get updates. And worse yet, you will NEVER be able to UPGRADE that perpetual license. It is FROZEN at that version FOREVER.

IF you want to get the next update, lets say that v12.2.3 fixes a very annoying bug that has been their since V12.1.2 for the year, you will not be able to get it.

However, if you buy a "NEW" perpetual license for 899, you will have one year to get on a "plan" or the whole process starts over again.

It is nothing more than extortion. Pay monthly or annually, or lose the ability to update and upgrade FOREVER.

And from Bobby himself, the music community is not moving up to 12. There is nothing they want in it, and everyone feels the same about this annual "must" or lose deal.

Logic, DP, Cubase and Nuendo are getting looked at heavily again and many are consider moving to other platforms.

mesaone 02-05-2015 11:24 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Pro Tools 12 will only be available via subscription. You can either go month to month at $29.95 per month or $299 per year, or get a "perpetual" license that allows you to purchase the software for $899.
So it's ONLY AVAILABLE as a subscription... EXCEPT it's ALSO available as a perpetual license. :D

Huzzam, what about GBP, Yen, or Spanish doubloons?

lexaudio 02-05-2015 11:24 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park Seward (Post 2229579)
If you have a subscription that lapses, do you then use your perpetual license? I assume Pro Tools goes back to the last perpetual version and the subscription version either goes away or is simply "turned off".

Does your old perpetual license stop working when your subscription lapses? It should not but I haven't seen all the facts yet.

Does the subscription enable the most current version of software or the last working version you had on your computer? While on subscription, do you get updates?
A License subscription is a cloud license and is turned off. A perpetual license lives on your ilok but is frozen at that version and cannot be updated or upgraded. EVER.

You have to buy a completely new license to get new updates and upgrades.

And if its an HD license, you need to buy new hardware again to get a new license as you can't buy an HD license buy itself.

So the only one who wins here is AVID and AVID screws the users.

JoelG 02-05-2015 11:58 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexaudio (Post 2229583)
Ok, here is the real truth and "rub". The mods and AVID like to "steer" you away from this very fact.

Yes, if you have a perpetual license, it will not go away. If you have a subscription it will.

So let's say, you buy the 199 annual "extortion support" and in a year, when it is up for "renewal", you either don't have the money at that point, or AVID has put nothing of value into the software that you need at that time.

While your license will remain at that version, let's say V12.2.1. That is the last version you will be able to use.
You will not be able to get updates. And worse yet, you will NEVER be able to UPGRADE that perpetual license. It is FROZEN at that version FOREVER.

IF you want to get the next update, lets say that v12.2.3 fixes a very annoying bug that has been their since V12.1.2 for the year, you will not be able to get it.

However, if you buy a "NEW" perpetual license for 899, you will have one year to get on a "plan" or the whole process starts over again.

It is nothing more than extortion. Pay monthly or annually, or lose the ability to update and upgrade FOREVER.
That is not exactly a secret. It has been stated over and over, and is in the FAQ too!

"Q. What is a perpetual license?
A. A "perpetual license" is a license that does not expire—you own the software. You get a perpetual license when you purchase a new Pro Tools or Pro Tools | HD system or Pro Tools software. New Pro Tools software purchases come with a one-year annual upgrade and support plan. After one year, you have the option of renewing your plan to continue receiving the latest features. If you choose not to renew, you can continue using your software indefinitely at the latest version you have, but will not be able to upgrade it at a later time.

Q. Will my Pro Tools perpetual license stop working at the end of the one-year upgrade and support plan period?
A. No, you can continue to use Pro Tools if you allow your upgrade and support plan to expire. However, if you want to continue receiving updates with new features, you will need to renew your plan before it expires or switch to a subscription. Pro Tools and Pro Tools | HD owners will have through the end of 2015 to get on an annual upgrade and support plan. If you don’t get on a plan, you will not be able to upgrade your software in the future.

Q: If I have a Pro Tools perpetual license and my upgrade and support plan expires, what are my options if I want to upgrade later on?
A: You will have two options to get access to the latest version of Pro Tools:
Subscribe to Pro Tools software on a monthly or annual basis
Purchase a new Pro Tools perpetual license (full product) that includes an annual upgrade and support plan"

At this point, it is up to Avid to prove that there will be compelling reasons to buy into the support plan. If over the next year the Pro Tools upgrades provide features that make your work better/easier, then staying current with the support plan makes sense. If there are no new features that make your work better/easier, then stay on the "perpetual" license that you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexaudio (Post 2229586)
And if its an HD license, you need to buy new hardware again to get a new license as you can't buy an HD license buy itself.
That has not been stated in the FAQ. I think there have been users that have speculated, but Avid has not said this.

Joel

lexaudio 02-05-2015 01:00 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelG (Post 2229609)
That is not exactly a secret. It has been stated over and over, and is in the FAQ too!

"Q. What is a perpetual license?
A. A "perpetual license" is a license that does not expire—you own the software. You get a perpetual license when you purchase a new Pro Tools or Pro Tools | HD system or Pro Tools software. New Pro Tools software purchases come with a one-year annual upgrade and support plan. After one year, you have the option of renewing your plan to continue receiving the latest features. If you choose not to renew, you can continue using your software indefinitely at the latest version you have, but will not be able to upgrade it at a later time.

Q. Will my Pro Tools perpetual license stop working at the end of the one-year upgrade and support plan period?
A. No, you can continue to use Pro Tools if you allow your upgrade and support plan to expire. However, if you want to continue receiving updates with new features, you will need to renew your plan before it expires or switch to a subscription. Pro Tools and Pro Tools | HD owners will have through the end of 2015 to get on an annual upgrade and support plan. If you don’t get on a plan, you will not be able to upgrade your software in the future.

Q: If I have a Pro Tools perpetual license and my upgrade and support plan expires, what are my options if I want to upgrade later on?
A: You will have two options to get access to the latest version of Pro Tools:
Subscribe to Pro Tools software on a monthly or annual basis
Purchase a new Pro Tools perpetual license (full product) that includes an annual upgrade and support plan"

At this point, it is up to Avid to prove that there will be compelling reasons to buy into the support plan. If over the next year the Pro Tools upgrades provide features that make your work better/easier, then staying current with the support plan makes sense. If there are no new features that make your work better/easier, then stay on the "perpetual" license that you have.



That has not been stated in the FAQ. I think there have been users that have speculated, but Avid has not said this.

Joel
AVID's current HDF policy is that no HD license are sold without purchase of hardware.
So unless AVID wants to state something different, there is no speculation.

That is the current policy.

And while there is no "secret" to the FAQ, the fact that you lose the ability to update and upgrade your perpetual license FOREVER is the most troubling fact PERIOD.

You can spin it anyway you want, and defend it, but that in a whole is what users are upset about.
It is extortion through and through.

AVID isn't being very user friendly in this and it is driving away users.

As I have stated, I'm not purchasing an HD rig this year as I had planned to thanks to this. And I'm not the only one either. Several people are forgoing hardware upgrades and purchases as well.

That's 30k plus lost this year for AVID. I wanted to have multiple license as well, but now will only keep one.

Defend all you want, but this is bad for the end users, not good.

mesaone 02-05-2015 01:43 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexaudio (Post 2229623)
It is extortion through and through
Except it's not. Your license is not being held hostage. If you have a perpetual license, then you have a perpetual license. Options you don't like and update policies you don't like are not the same thing as extortion.

lexaudio 02-05-2015 01:47 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesaone (Post 2229639)
Except it's not. Your license is not being held hostage. If you have a perpetual license, then you have a perpetual license. Options you don't like and update policies you don't like are not the same thing as extortion.
To get updates in order to fix their bugs, yes it is.

Being locked out FOREVER makes it extortion. No other model does this. Not Sonar, Slate, MS, Adobe.
If you miss your renew date and renew later, all is good.

Not with AVID. You miss, you lose.

Ergo. Extortion.

musicman691 02-05-2015 01:51 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by huzzam (Post 2229468)
Are you sure? This is from an email from Bobby Owsinski:
That email is so wrong on so many accounts I have trouble believing it really came from someone as respected as Bobby O. I think somebody hacked his email account.

mesaone 02-05-2015 01:56 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexaudio (Post 2229641)
To get updates in order to fix their bugs, yes it is.
You get bugfix updates even without a support plan. You are never locked out of your perpetual licenses. This is in the FAQ.

It may not be what Slate, Adobe, and Popular Mechanics magazine are doing - it doesn't have to be. I don't like the new policies either, but I don't see how the use of hyperbole will help anything.

Josh Voyles 02-05-2015 02:27 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Is the music industry actually moving away from Pro Tools or are studios just not upgrading?

And if they are moving away, what is the new "industry standard" DAW?

nigelpry 02-05-2015 02:47 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesaone (Post 2229651)
You get bugfix updates even without a support plan. You are never locked out of your perpetual licenses. This is in the FAQ
Well, that is how it was originally presented ...

But more recently, the word from Avid has been that there will be free updates to Pro Tools 11 "Through December 31st 2015”.

I've asked the question, and there has been no answer so far ....

That phrase either means ...

1) Avid does not intend to release any more updates to PT11 after the end of 2015, which goes against their historical support period for a PT version, e.g. they have promised a further update to PT10 in 2015, or

2) Any updates to PT11 after the end of 2015 will be designated as 'upgrades' and thus not be available unless you are on a support plan.

Those are the only conclusions you can come to unless unless it turns out to be yet another example of bad wording by Avid, with them conflating the deadline for signing up to a support plan with availability of free updates in error.

lexaudio 02-05-2015 03:34 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesaone (Post 2229651)
You get bugfix updates even without a support plan. You are never locked out of your perpetual licenses. This is in the FAQ.

It may not be what Slate, Adobe, and Popular Mechanics magazine are doing - it doesn't have to be. I don't like the new policies either, but I don't see how the use of hyperbole will help anything.
Not true:

"If you choose not to renew, you can continue using your software indefinitely at the latest version you have, but will not be able to upgrade it at a later time."

Latest version [B]YOU[B] have. Meaning, if the last version you had was 12.1.1, and a week later 12.1.2 was released fixing a number of bugs, you will NOT be able to get that update.

"If you don’t get on a plan, you will not be able to upgrade your software in the future."

No more updates after expiration, and you cannot upgrade your product or get on a new plan with that license.

I've used those examples to show how other companies look at their customers differently.

Locking the customers out of updates and upgrades forcing them to have to buy a completely new license is dumb.
Look, if they want to keep people from updates who haven't renewed, fine. But allow them a chance to come back, in a normal none extortion like threat as it is now.

I only mention AVID's demise as something that is a real fact. Picture editors are pissed too.
Look at Keurig. The backlash from the customers is so big because of their DRM sceme, their earnings are tanking.

And that's coffee.

I think if AVID loosened the reigns, allowed customers to come back if there was a lapse, more people would be on board. A whole lot more.
But the forcing of it is what and why people are lashing out and walking away.

AVID is trying to increase their bottom line. This is only going to lead to a negative bottom line next year.

mesaone 02-05-2015 03:38 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
As I pointed out, bugfix updates are free - and as Nigel clarified, the cutoff date is the end of 2015. With or without a support plan. In this case, "the latest version" is referring to the latest feature version, where bugfixes are not full versions - they are "dot releases" like 11.2.1 and 11.2 etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ
Q. Will I still get bug fix updates if I don't get an upgrade and support plan?
A. We will continue to release Pro Tools 11 bug fix only updates at no cost through December 31, 2015.
Source

Somewhat of a silver lining, that is also the cutoff for adding support plans to existing licenses. So you have until then to see how things shape up before you make your decision, and you'll still receive all the bug fixes in the meantime.

lexaudio 02-05-2015 03:44 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Voyles (Post 2229658)
Is the music industry actually moving away from Pro Tools or are studios just not upgrading?

And if they are moving away, what is the new "industry standard" DAW?
I wouldn't say moving away. Just not upgrading to 12.

There isn't anything in 12 that is drawing those users to 12, and with the AVID plans, its tapping people out too much just to stay current.

From my circle of people, I hear talk of Logic, DP and Cubase/Nuendo. Especially now that Logic has VCA's as does Cubase which was one thing that was keeping a lot of users on PT.

Considering the cost difference, it will just be taking the time to learn a new DAW or just sticking with the last working version of PT for the next 4-5 years.

I have both older versions of Nuendo and Cubase, as I moved to PT completely. However, I can upgrade those licenses, even though they are 7 years old.
Both are far more powerful than PT vanilla and have all the features PT has now.
I can keep one HD license and let the rest go.

So much for multiple license upgrades when I am ready. They basically lost that business and hardware purchase business from me and many others.

Bob Olhsson 02-05-2015 04:10 PM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Voyles (Post 2229658)
Is the music industry actually moving away from Pro Tools or are studios just not upgrading?

And if they are moving away, what is the new "industry standard" DAW?
Depends on what you call the music industry. In today's commercial music studios the medium of exchange between different studios is a Pro Tools session playing the same role 2" tape once did. I frankly don't see that changing anytime soon. Lots of "name" studios are still using Pro Tools 7 and 8 HD. I don't picture them upgrading until they have enough customer demand that it becomes well worth the investment.

What new features turn up in PT12 will probably dictate where a lot of people go but that's all speculation at this point.

Kristo Kotkas 02-06-2015 12:16 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Once hated Waves Update Plan WUP seems now like a very reasonable, good and customer friendly business plan.

Waves has put a lot of thought into this, ant they have experience of similar update system running for years now. In my opinion Avid should learn from Waves experience. If Waves 10k software bundle costs $300 to maintain per year then $2000 PT Software (HD license street price) should not cost more than $100 per year for people to consider it fair at least in my opinion. Also, in Waves case, if you decide not to pay the fee of update for year or two, or three you won't be let behind, once you pay the yearly fee again you are right in the boat enjoying all the features, without re-purchasing the software.

I'm personally afraid Avid is shooting itself in the foot. Sure Institutions and big companies/national TV stations etc etc pay what they need to pay to keep PT current, but persons, much like myself sitting on Accel hardware working in PT10 will ask themselves why on earth should I upgrade to HDX now.

Or then again, I might be living in a completely different reality than Avid is and they have calculated it over and over for a year or more and they know the new system keeps the company running... until Waves comes out with a DAW that opens PT sessions :D:o:(

noiseboyuk 02-06-2015 12:33 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson (Post 2229680)
Depends on what you call the music industry. In today's commercial music studios the medium of exchange between different studios is a Pro Tools session playing the same role 2" tape once did. I frankly don't see that changing anytime soon. Lots of "name" studios are still using Pro Tools 7 and 8 HD. I don't picture them upgrading until they have enough customer demand that it becomes well worth the investment..
Here's the thing though - studios in this position only pay peanuts to have another DAW on the system (a one off purchase of either Logic or Cubase is around the same cost or less as as one year's update in Pro Tools HD). What we will see happen is this - more and more bands, artists and producers will arrive at the studio with their Logic and Cubase projects (maybe even Sonar who knows). Over time, the non-updated PT software in the studios will get less and less use because of client demand. There's a lot of inertia in the system for sure, and the relative ease of inter-studio transfer is the biggest reason for this - but eventually even that momentum will run out if Avid don't address their fundamental problems.

JFreak 02-06-2015 01:18 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristo Kotkas (Post 2229785)
If Waves 10k software bundle costs $300 to maintain per year then $2000 PT Software (HD license street price) should not cost more than $100 per year for people to consider it fair at least in my opinion.
Don't you mean Waves 5k software bundle? There is no more TDM, and nobody buys SoundGrid. So their flagship product is Mercury Native which is 5k and costs 300 a year to maintain.

But I got your point, the Pro Tools standard software isn't that expensive so Avid charges more from standard software users. HD plan however, at 599 a year, is relatively cheaper than WUP because HD systems are normally well over 10k, even entry-level HDN systems are well over 5k in comparison.

I know what you think. I myself didn't buy into Adobe CC monthly subscription, because I don't use it that often. But I still have my CS4 very much alive and hope that it won't ever die. People are thinking how much they need Pro Tools and the user base might take a hit.

Kristo Kotkas 02-06-2015 01:44 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak (Post 2229793)
Don't you mean Waves 5k software bundle? There is no more TDM, and nobody buys SoundGrid. So their flagship product is Mercury Native which is 5k and costs 300 a year to maintain.

But I got your point, the Pro Tools standard software isn't that expensive so Avid charges more from standard software users. HD plan however, at 599 a year, is relatively cheaper than WUP because HD systems are normally well over 10k, even entry-level HDN systems are well over 5k in comparison.
We can't compare Avid HD systems with HW and Waves software only bundles can we, they don't update HW for the 599 do they? So that is why I said PTHD 2K vs Waves bundle 10K, and we do not know if no-one does or does not buy Soundgrid these numbers are what are in use today. Even if you say 5K Waves plan for $300 that would roughly equal to $2k PTHD to cost $120 to maintain using similar pricing and that would feel fair to me. 200 would feel OK for HD, I would even consider 300, but 599 every year??

Anyway, I just wanted to say that if Avid would follow a similar pricing route and would not kill un-updated licenses off, that should be the way to go and I believe most people would not have issues accepting this. Right now I will be buying double of everything I have for my PT10HD to keep the system alive as long as I am alive :D

JFreak 02-06-2015 01:54 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristo Kotkas (Post 2229797)
We can't compare Avid HD systems with HW and Waves software only bundles can we, they don't update HW for the 599 do they?
Currently we have to, because PT HD software is not for sale without hardware. Well, except if you happen to own CPTK and older standard license, then, but until anyone can just buy PT HD license without hardware, that's the price.

Kristo Kotkas 02-06-2015 02:13 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak (Post 2229798)
Currently we have to, because PT HD software is not for sale without hardware. Well, except if you happen to own CPTK and older standard license, then, but until anyone can just buy PT HD license without hardware, that's the price.
Ok then $5000 Waves for 300/y vs $900 PT for $199/y to me that shows even more of much off the yearly price of PT is, compared to Waves WUP that is. And killing the license off if you don't pay... man... I don't see how Avid considers this fair, but they are a large corporation and they know their business inside out so who am I to second guess their decisions.

JFreak 02-06-2015 02:17 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
I'm not so sure yet what "killing" the lapsed service plan means. It might be that the license won't be upgradeable but keeps working just like before. Frankly, I have not worried about this a lot because I only have HD systems, and the new HD pricing is not yet announced.

Kristo Kotkas 02-06-2015 02:48 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak (Post 2229803)
I'm not so sure yet what "killing" the lapsed service plan means. It might be that the license won't be upgradeable but keeps working just like before. Frankly, I have not worried about this a lot because I only have HD systems, and the new HD pricing is not yet announced.
Word "kiling" is not right sorry, what I meant is that if Waves would force us to re-buy Mercury if WUP runs out, that would be equal to what Avid is offering now, right? As I understand it Pro Tools HD keeps working at the version it is left at, but if you then want to get the version upgraded after the 1 year plan has ended you need to re-purchase Pro Tools HD license and... aaaah, now I get it, the PTHD license-only price is not yet announced.. well, I can tell you this my friend, it will not be cheap :D It will likely be about 1,5 to 4 times the price you will hope it to be ;) I will eat my hat if it's less than 2K. $599 per year must look like peanuts compared to the full price. I guess it's going to be just below HDN + Omni system, much like PT Vanilla is just below Eleven Rack with PT or PT with MBox Pro.

JFreak 02-06-2015 02:55 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
We don't even know whether or not it is ever possible to buy PT HD without hardware.

But imagine it should be possible this year; wouldn't a fair price point be triple standard software, because the yearly support plan is 199/599 currently? So that would mean PT HD price point at 3*899=2697 and the marketing folks' calculators would naturally produce 2999 as a result.

That'd be my best guess.

Righty27 02-06-2015 03:31 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristo Kotkas (Post 2229806)
Word "kiling" is not right sorry, what I meant is that if Waves would force us to re-buy Mercury if WUP runs out, that would be equal to what Avid is offering now, right? As I understand it Pro Tools HD keeps working at the version it is left at, but if you then want to get the version upgraded after the 1 year plan has ended you need to re-purchase Pro Tools HD license and... aaaah, now I get it, the PTHD license-only price is not yet announced.. well, I can tell you this my friend, it will not be cheap :D It will likely be about 1,5 to 4 times the price you will hope it to be ;) I will eat my hat if it's less than 2K. $599 per year must look like peanuts compared to the full price. I guess it's going to be just below HDN + Omni system, much like PT Vanilla is just below Eleven Rack with PT or PT with MBox Pro.
Kristo - I think that the Waves/WUP comparison is valid ... but actually, what Avid has done is worse (notwithstanding that the much-maligned WUP may actually cover lots of Waves products for a flat fee).

Avid have gone from no 'support plan' of any sort (relating to updates/upgrades - only actual technical support in the past) to introducing one with this 'lapsed plan' threat all in one go. Paying for a plan to access technical support with the added benefit/value of included upgrades seems reasonable and would encourage Avid to make it worthwhile to customers (and may be attractive to serial upgraders), but locking out those who would rather pay only for required upgrades seems overly aggressive. Some may even like to hop in and out of support plans depending on circumstances.

This would be equivalent to Soundtoys, Izotope, AIR, etc. ... any plugin developer who has previously allowed reasonably-priced version upgrades, introducing a paid plan requiring continuous payment with this 'threat' of going back to square one if you do not sign up. It wouldn't be too much of a surprise if this policy resulted in lost business.

If I was to look at my applications folder and work out my monthly 'computing cost' if every developer was to charge me 25% of the purchase cost p.a., I suspect I'd be in for a bit of a shock! But Avid's rationale appears to be more wrapped up in the Everywhere and cloud components - over time, will we see an increasingly unavoidable dependency on using the Avid cloud to work with Pro Tools (the requiring membership, validated credentials, etc.) iLok protection would become redundant because one could use Pro Tools | First for free ... but couldn't do much with it without unlocking the required cloud component.

Drew Mazurek 02-06-2015 03:35 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
You're not being forced to re-buy necessarily, but you are forced onto the subscription plan at that point which is of course what they want everyone to be ultimately. This perpetual license thing is a ruse.

noiseboyuk 02-06-2015 03:56 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak (Post 2229809)
We don't even know whether or not it is ever possible to buy PT HD without hardware.
It's true that we don't. But a point that seems is often overlooked is that this isn't crystal ball-gazing - this has been Avid's policy now for a long time. You've haven't been able to buy HD software only (or alternate with the same functionality) for about 2 years. It would require a major change of direction (as opposed to a sales point just not being clarified).

Personally I think Avid will eventually drop the restriction on licenses not being upgradeable, as they also will Media Composer. It'll harm their own business financially. They'll stick it out as long as they can to bully as many people as possible into upgrading when they don't want or need to, then with the cashflow reaches critical they'll come with various "exclusive time limited" promotions to try to claw old customers back. The DUC will then be aflame with furious customers who've paid hundreds / thousands needlessly.

Righty27 02-06-2015 04:04 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseboyuk (Post 2229822)
It's true that we don't. But a point that seems is often overlooked is that this isn't crystal ball-gazing - this has been Avid's policy now for a long time. You've haven't been able to buy HD software only (or alternate with the same functionality) for about 2 years. It would require a major change of direction (as opposed to a sales point just not being clarified).

Personally I think Avid will eventually drop the restriction on licenses not being upgradeable, as they also will Media Composer. It'll harm their own business financially. They'll stick it out as long as they can to bully as many people as possible into upgrading when they don't want or need to, then with the cashflow reaches critical they'll come with various "exclusive time limited" promotions to try to claw old customers back. The DUC will then be aflame with furious customers who've paid hundreds / thousands needlessly.
... and counter arguments that those users benefitted from the technical support for that period ... and no one forced them to sign up, etc.

I agree: at the risk of losing non-support users from Pro Tools for good, offers may appear from time-to-time, possibly linked to major releases. If 2/3 of current users do not sign up for plans by end-2015 (as one recent poll suggested), Avid would find it hard not to try to tempt these back into the fold soon after and before they realise they can work with Cubase or what have you!

musicman691 02-06-2015 04:08 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseboyuk (Post 2229787)
Here's the thing though - studios in this position only pay peanuts to have another DAW on the system (a one off purchase of either Logic or Cubase is around the same cost or less as as one year's update in Pro Tools HD). What we will see happen is this - more and more bands, artists and producers will arrive at the studio with their Logic and Cubase projects (maybe even Sonar who knows). Over time, the non-updated PT software in the studios will get less and less use because of client demand. There's a lot of inertia in the system for sure, and the relative ease of inter-studio transfer is the biggest reason for this - but eventually even that momentum will run out if Avid don't address their fundamental problems.
One of the things that's keeping Sonar from taking over the world (ignore the 800 pound Avid gorilla in the room) of recording is it's Windows only and will never go dual platform which is sad. I say that it will never go dual platform because it's been said many times by CW people over on their forums that it will never happen. Other than having a couple of vi's that are dual platform there's a strong anti-Mac sentiment over there - I used to post regular there when I ran a Windows machine and had Sonar from version 3 through 8 Producer.

Maybe with whoever owns them this week (is it Gibson or Roland?) that will change and we'll see Sonar dual platform. It has most everything PT has been lacking for a decade now (track freeze for one); was the first to 64 bit for example.

noiseboyuk 02-06-2015 04:52 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 (Post 2229824)
One of the things that's keeping Sonar from taking over the world (ignore the 800 pound Avid gorilla in the room) of recording is it's Windows only and will never go dual platform which is sad. I say that it will never go dual platform because it's been said many times by CW people over on their forums that it will never happen. Other than having a couple of vi's that are dual platform there's a strong anti-Mac sentiment over there - I used to post regular there when I ran a Windows machine and had Sonar from version 3 through 8 Producer.

Maybe with whoever owns them this week (is it Gibson or Roland?) that will change and we'll see Sonar dual platform. It has most everything PT has been lacking for a decade now (track freeze for one); was the first to 64 bit for example.
And of course Logic is Mac-only.

The most logical successor to the PT crown is Cubase for music and Nuendo for post. Dual platform, reasonably priced, has pretty much everything that PT does and for some jobs is infinitely superior. For music, imo it all comes down to what the bigger name producers and engineers use. If they're lured away from PT, the rest of the industry will start to get dragged in their wake. Post will take a lot longer I think, but it's not impossible.

JFreak 02-06-2015 05:16 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Post buys a 100 fader console and uses what software comes integrated with it. Session musician buys affordable software and uses whatever hardware is available.

noiseboyuk 02-06-2015 05:46 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak (Post 2229842)
Post buys a 100 fader console and uses what software comes integrated with it. Session musician buys affordable software and uses whatever hardware is available.
As for post, that's a huge oversimplification. You don't buy a Euphonix console and just use whatever happens to be bundled, it doesn't work that way. There are the older ICON desks for PT or Nuage for Steinberg, sure, but even the Avid S6 will work happily with other DAWs. And actually I think the trend for small and mid facilities is increasingly away from the larger consoles anyway - unless you're a huge dubbing stage with multiple people sat at it, the disadvantages of size can outweigh the advantages imo. Regardless of size, I'd be extremely wary of buying any hardware that is specific to a platform these days. If Avid went into recievership tomorrow, I'd want to know that whatever I owned could be used with other DAWs going forward.

And as for session musicians - of course, but not sure how that affects anything. It's the producers and their engineers who would drive the change in music, not the musicians.

Seafoam_Green 02-06-2015 06:07 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelG (Post 2229609)
[I think there have been users that have speculated, but Avid has not said this.

Joel
There are also many other things Avid have not stated either ...., which is nothing short of sly IMO ...., This is what p#ssing everyone off and this is why no one feels compelled to trust Avid.

If there was good news ahead , they would jumping at the opportunity to tell the Pro Tools users to quell the unease amongst the troops , but no ..., the silence from Avid can only mean the worst.

The fact that they have totally disregarded their own users wishlist on Ideascale :eek: lends weights to the argument that Avid are hellbent on shafting their users for whatever they can.

I cant believe the new team at Avid (ie; a joint venture between Mr Burns & Dr Evil) havent back peddled on the whole idea by now , ie; after the negative response Avid have generated so far ..., as Ive not seen a single welcoming reply to their plans ..., only the total opposite ..., but Im guessing instead they are just up in their Evil tower sniggering .

upscaps 02-06-2015 07:02 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseboyuk (Post 2229835)
And of course Logic is Mac-only.

The most logical successor to the PT crown is Cubase for music and Nuendo for post. Dual platform, reasonably priced, has pretty much everything that PT does and for some jobs is infinitely superior. For music, imo it all comes down to what the bigger name producers and engineers use. If they're lured away from PT, the rest of the industry will start to get dragged in their wake. Post will take a lot longer I think, but it's not impossible.
There has yet to be any other DAW on the market that will cause the Post/High End music market to undertake the massive transfer of decades of sessions to a new format minus most of the plugins used for those sessions. High end facilities who lease/buy high end Avid hardware have already been on support plans. Nothing has changed.

IMO, PT vanilla users should run to another DAW. Not because of the subscriptions, but because it's way too crippled in comparison to other DAWs that are cheaper. Especially if your primary use is VI's.

noiseboyuk 02-06-2015 08:06 AM
Re: Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by upscaps (Post 2229863)
There has yet to be any other DAW on the market that will cause the Post/High End music market to undertake the massive transfer of decades of sessions to a new format minus most of the plugins used for those sessions. High end facilities who lease/buy high end Avid hardware have already been on support plans. Nothing has changed
I think you're missing my point.

No-one is suggesting any post or high end music facilities will throw all their PT hardware in the skip on December 31. What I think will happen (if Avid's current policies continue) is a client-led slow migration away, initially in music but then in post as well.

You can pretty much run any other DAW side by side with PT at almost zero cost to a facility. With music, the projects are client led. So if the producers and engineers themselves begin to baulk at the heavy mandatory upgrade costs, lack of features or proprietary hardware, then they'll start bringing in Cubase projects, not PT. No problem for the studios - they have both. As time goes on though, the clients using PT will begin to dwindle, and the cost of upgrading will become hard to justify. PT would remain, but for legacy projects. From reading posts here, that's exactly what has already been happening for some time at the bottom end of the market, my view is that this phenomenon will rise up the food chain.

With post there's less impetus to drive the change. But actually PT already isn't quite as dominant globally as some think. In the UK, Sky exclusively use Fairlight. Across Europe, Nuendo is becoming more popular. PT isn't a given even in Post. Market forces may work glacially there, but glaciers do move, after all. Also that slow rate of change also works for and against Avid. They're the clients least likely to want to upgrade at all, so especially the lower end of the market may just begin to opt out of upgrading anyway. Often when I ask larger facilities if they've considered PT11, they give me a funny "don't be absurd" kind of look.


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