Analog warmth in digital recording... how?

[ChenteleyA]

guys... do you sometimes feel that the digital recording platform, while it is outstanding for clarity, it compromises on the warmth of the analog sound? how do we veto this prob? and also, what role does dithering play and how do you determine which dithering bit rate to use when? i find my mixes a perfect in terms of balance and pans, effects etc... but the sterile sound makes it a bit unacceptable to my ears... well?

[Xavi - DUY]

Hi ChenteleyA,

Have you tried our DaD Tape and DaD Valve plug-ins? I'm sure they would make a big difference to your final tracks!!!

Best regards,

[Jules]

I find recording with an Empirical Labs Fatso Jnr and mixing with a Cranesong Hedd indespensible.

Do a key word search here on the DUC to get further info on using both products with PT.


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[Allen Hallada]

I agree with Jules on the HEDD192 for warming things up. I saw a great article featuring both the Great River MP-2NV and the HEDD192 for bringing back the analog sound. I use them both and I love them. You may find the article on Great River or Cranesongs website, but it was very informative and technical too.
Allen images/icons/wink.gif

[rtcstudio]

I record everything with vintage Neves, API's etc. In the mix I use McDSP Analog Channel.

Sometimes in Mastering we take a D/A trip out to some analog EQ and Compression.

[Daniel_Dettwiler]

My way to get warmth on my Jazz Projects is to choose the right mics and pres and maybe have some nice compressors already in the process, then convert with a good converter.

If I need something colorfull in the Mix-Process I find the Inflator very usefull and nice.

daniel
www.ideeundklang.com (http://www.ideeundklang.com)

[Allen Hallada]

Color My World
http://www.tangible-technology.com/reviews/crayons1/ColorMyWorld.htm

[Nashville Bass]

Check this out: http://www.dangerousmusic.com/products.html

[MusicRocks]

Hi DUY

You got good reviews but your charging a ton for tiny plugins with no soundclips on your site. Some soundclip comparisons at exactly the same volume level would be a great selling point.

Why dont you let us hear some soundclips of how DUY warms up things.

Does anyone have any or know of any website that has comparison soundclips of real tape vs digital vs the various plugins?

Thanks images/icons/smile.gif

[bullyboy]

for me,.......#1 is going in with tube saturation,....TL Audio tube pre,...or many others,......

not heavy,......tickle the tubes,.....listen for a slight fatness,.....that's some squarewave-even order harmonic distortion,...

if you eq some silky top end into that,.....
avalon or focusrite or gml,....

then,.....

mcdsp analog channel,........Voilá,....!!!!

my too sense,.....

bb

[csa produktion]

After all this time with first analog recordings and the digital in PT I´ve lately come to the conclusion that tracking the drums and perc. analog is the major trick. No compressor in the world can simulate that process. The guys who are as old as I am know what I´m talking about. No one ´would be happier if there was a way around this in the digital world.
sorry about the spelling.

Mats

[Jules]

The warmth function you get on the Sony Dynamics Plug is in pretty damn good IMHO.

Great on vocals..

Jules

[csa produktion]

Jules,

I have honestly not tryied the Sony but no plug has ever made the sound so (what shall I say) round, smooth, warm than analog tape. This is mostly because of peaks that analog takes care of and you hear the sound as more musical. Or??

Mats

[superdood]

I know that sony will soon be releasing their eq plug ins etc for Xp, but what about Duy and McDsp? Don't they know that Pc users have money to spend too?
Do any of you know of any plug ins that are comparable to the "warming" and "analog" style channel strips of the Duy and Mcdsp, but that are available for pc HD users? I have the Waves Gold dealio, but there's really nothing there that is geared towards "warming" etc
Thanks,
Steve

[adam_w1]

You have to get it as close as you can to right on the way in..

Warm mics..ribbons & valve
Warm pres..api, neve, telefunken
Warm outboard

Dad tape/McDSP analog channel to taste

..or try rolling some top end off ! A lot of this warmth thing is subjective..

[Felix]

Originally posted by adam_w1:
You have to get it as close as you can to right on the way in..

Warm mics..ribbons & valve
Warm pres..api, neve, telefunken
Warm outboard

Dad tape/McDSP analog channel to taste

..or try rolling some top end off ! A lot of this warmth thing is subjective.. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">very true.
pay close attention to high end frequency clashing and put gradual LPF's on anything that doesn't need to be represented in the high freq. zone. esp. on percusion. i've found this to help out greatly in reducing the "digital problems" with a mix.
i've found the biggest challenge in PT mixing is carefully and strictly restricting the freq. zones of the elements, as things simply don't blend as easily within the box.

[MusicRocks]

One of the reasons it sounds so "clean" is nothing good is added to the signals.

With each pass analog gear and or tape will add something good in the way of distortion or harmonics(when done right) and all of this has a cumlative effect---after all this no one would ever claim it sounds too "clean"

So if your just in the box--you must find a way to add those dirty effects to each track.

This can be done--I find the plugins and outboard effects do not do this well enough though.

I am experimenting with harmonics and compression along with eq to add a specific dirtiness:) to each track that needs it. The signal does sound a lot like pleasant hiss on the highend--I'm working on a lowend type too.

[waves3]

Anyone have any experience with the new antares tube? Compared to the duy or mcdsp stuff for warm'n up tracks?

[Antoni Ozynski PSP]

Hi
You can also try to use the PSP VintageWarmer.
We have just released the demo version RTAS compatible (Mac OS classic and OSX). The full version will be available soon.
http://www.pspaudioware.com/download/demos/PSPvwRTASdemo.hqx

Warm regards from cold Poland
Antoni Ozynski
http://www.PSPaudioware.com

BTW Happy New Tibetan Year

[sdevino]

Tell me if you think this is warm sounding:
http://www.graniterocks.com/Files/Breathe.mp3

Steve

[superdood]

Anyone know of any plug ins for Pc that are comparable to the Duy or Mcdsp "analog" sounding stuff?????
thx,
Steve

[rnt_u_listnng]

I go with the Crane Song crowd as well. The tube and tape saturation effects in full digital model on the HEDD add tremendous smoothness to the final mix.

[ChenteleyA]

Hi Steve (Devino) ... that sounded good mate! but i felt the vocals were slightly oriented to the left speaker... (or is it me who's deaf on the right ear? mmm...)

1) what plugs did you use on the vocals?
2) what's the trick to the warmth?
3) what do you usually do for the mastering bit? process and plugs?

[sdevino]

Originally posted by ChenteleyA:
Hi Steve (Devino) ... that sounded good mate! but i felt the vocals were slightly oriented to the left speaker... (or is it me who's deaf on the right ear? mmm...)

I just rechecked in phones and they sound center to me???
And I am glad you liked it.

[QB}
1) what plugs did you use on the vocals? [/QB]
Ren Compressor. No EQ anywhere. I used a TLM103 mic into a Focusrite RED 1 pre to Digi192i/o.
Vocals were tracked in 3 different styles then comped and blended as needed.


2) what's the trick to the warmth?

Avoid using vintage mic! images/icons/smile.gif
No really, I spent a lot of time making sure the guitars sounded great on the way in. I use the room ambiance to place the instruments in the mix more than EQ. The guitarist got a great sound and I made sure we recorded it.
We added a high shelf via C4 on the guitar sub and little bit of 2.5 kHz via a Ren EQ.

3) what do you usually do for the mastering bit? process and plugs?
I used a C4 preset for "Multi Electro Mastering" boosted a little low shelf, followed by L2.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't use any "warmers" per say or any tube emulators. If I need tube sound I run it through my UA 2-610.
I think the real secret is great monitors (Earthworks Sigma 6.2) which have an incredibly accurate bass.

Steve

[EJolson]

Very timely topic.

I was just listening to a bunch of mixes that I did over the last couple of years. Half of them were done in my "old" writing studio, recorded in PT and Digital Performer and mixed on my hoary old Soundcraft Ghost with multiple analog outs feeding the board. The other half were done in my swanky "new" all-digital setup (ProTools TDM feeding a pair of 02R's).

HUGE difference between the old and new mixes, when played back to back. I mean really, shockingly huge. The Soundcraft mixes sounded "denser", "compressed"... "like a record". Individual elements in the mix were somehow more saturated, and seemed to "glue" better to each other. The apparent volume of the Soundcraft mixes was much louder than the all-digital mixes, too... even though I compressed the digital mixes MUCH harder as a general rule. It was almost like the Soundcraft had its own "self-compression" thing going on, on a channel-per-channel basis... making it much phatter and beefier when all the elements were summed to make a mix.

I'm not interested in "going back" to the Soundcraft. The speed, plugin flexibility, and recallability of PT are an absolute must for the volume of work I have to do these days. But I would sure like to get some of that analog "spit and squish" with the new rig.

I have a Fatso Jr. and a HEDD in my rack which I use frequently, plus a bunch of other nice squishy analog pieces... a pair of Chandler 1073's, a Manley VoxBox, UREI and Drawmer comps, etc. I regularly track thru the analog stuff, compressing "on the way in" as a rule. But I still feel that at the MIX stage, the digital mix falls a little flat compared to what I could accomplish on the Soundcraft... without processing nearly as much "on the way in".

So my specific question is, what can/should I be doing at the mixdown stage to emulate some of that analog phat? I regularly run the HEDD on my 2mix which is nice, but still "not quite it". Oftentimes I will run my 2mix out analog thru my "big boy" analog compressors which does help a lot... but there again, compared to some of my Soundcraft mixes there is still a BIG difference.

I haven't really gotten into the McDSP Analog Channel stuff, or the DaD or PSP plugs. Is anyone out there REALLY instantiating 48 channels' worth of AC1 on your ProTools mixer? What about something like the D2B, is that a "magic bullet"? Somehow I was under the impression that the D2B was meant to be a coloration-free summing only device, and didn't really impart any particular "warmth" to the mixdown chain. Not true?

What to try? More "saturation" type plugs? D2B or one of its ilk? Both? Neither? Ditch the 02R's and bring a hoary, noisy old analog behemoth back in here? Help!!!

Sorry I'm rambling on a bit. Love to hear any opinions/suggestions.

[uno1234]

I have a Dangerous 2 bus and a 192. I map 16 outs of 192 to the D2B, but I add AC1 to each output via the master fader (stereo master fader, multimono AC1). The D2B is fed to an SSL stereo bus compressor (about $3K), which is my favorite mix compressor on the planet, which then feeds back into PT for bouncing to disk. I also add AC1 to the stereo mix fader.

For the AC1, I use the console 1 preset, with the compression level set to 3.5 instead of 7, and the outputs set to auto.

With that configuration and Oxford/Bombfactory plugins I find that my mixes are very warm. You have to MIX THROUGH the AC1, not add it at the end. It makes a big difference. I find the Tape plugin okay, but it can make things muddy and weird sometimes. It really depends on the song. The AC1 really works wonders, giving the pro tools mixer a feel and "sound" it never had before. When you take it off after your mix is done, the whole mix becomes lifeless.

[EJolson]

Originally posted by uno1234:
I add AC1 to each output via the master fader (stereo master fader, multimono AC1).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uno... many thanks for the response...

Can you light me up as to why you would add AC1 here to a master fader, as opposed to multiple individual channel faders?


The D2B is fed to an SSL stereo bus compressor (about $3K), which is my favorite mix compressor on the planet, which then feeds back into PT for bouncing to disk. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which SSL comp are you using?

I have an Alan Smart C2 in my rack which is spozed to be the SSL soundalike... I rarely use it for anything other than "crush mode" on the drum buss though. Might have to try it on the 2mix.


I also add AC1 to the stereo mix fader.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So to clarify... you are adding AC1 to each of your individual outputs to D2B, summing in the D2B and then adding AC1 again on the way back in to your PT stereo mixdown track?

This is great info, and gives me a whole new approach to try out in the PT mixer. Thanks!!! Out of curiosity what style(s) of music are you working in predominantly?

[Mark Staples]

I have a Dangerous 2 bus and a 192. I map 16 outs of 192 to the D2B, but I add AC1 to each output via the master fader (stereo master fader, multimono AC1). The D2B is fed to an SSL stereo bus compressor (about $3K), which is my favorite mix compressor on the planet, which then feeds back into PT for bouncing to disk. I also add AC1 to the stereo mix fader. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I'm getting closer to understanding this thing but what if you have more that 16 channels? How do you deal with that?

[doug_hti]

you generally make stems....
such as...
drum buss
synth buss
bass buss
lead vox
bgv buss
guitar buss
string buss, etc, etc.

[Extreme Mixing]

] [QUOTE]I have a Dangerous 2 bus and a 192. I map 16 outs of 192 to the D2B, but I add AC1 to each output via the master fader (stereo master fader, multimono AC1). The D2B is fed to an SSL stereo bus compressor (about $3K), which is my favorite mix compressor on the planet, which then feeds back into PT for bouncing to disk. I also add AC1 to the stereo mix fader.


Basically, I suppose, the more you process it, the more it sounds...um...er...processed. Wow. The things you have to do got get that organic unprocessed analog sound!

Just try to make it sound like music and you should be ok.

[Mark Staples]

you generally make stems....
such as...
drum buss
synth buss
bass buss
lead vox
bgv buss
guitar buss
string buss, etc, etc.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Steve. That makes sense. I was going to put that into my post as what I thought a possible solution, but I didn't want to appear more ignorant than I already am. images/icons/smile.gif

One question though, if I'm summing at the buss level, doesn't that defeat the purpose of the Dangerous 2-buss? Or is the D2B just to compensate for the Master Fader in PT?

Again, a dumb question...

[Mark Staples]

Sorry for the bad grammar in the above post. images/icons/rolleyes.gif It's early and obviously I need a cup of coffee. images/icons/smile.gif

[Jules]

"I have a Dangerous 2 bus and a 192. I map 16 outs of 192 to the D2B, but I add AC1 to each output via the master fader"

"Via THE master fader" ??????

Do you in fact mean, via 8 stereo master faders ?????

Please explain I am keen to understand this..

What AC1 setting BTW?

Thsi sounds like it could be VERY cool, you can simulate an SSL mix buss or a Neve mix buss... (in a way...)

GET BACK TO US ASAP!!!!!

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[Jules]

very interesting!

Thanks,

[sdevino]

Just make it sound good!

I don't use any outboard for anything. That means I have a lot more time for initial micing decisions. I am getting good feedback on my mixes so my cash will continue to go into mics.

I also generally avoid using anything "vintage". I think a lot of the older stuff is either too distorted or too hyped in the higher frequencies.

I also don't use much in the way of plugins anymore. Maybe just C4, L2, Ren EQ, occaisional CS and pitchblender. I build my own echoes and slaps out of delay.

I think the real secret is GREAT monitors (Earthworks Sigma 6.2).

Steve

[uno1234]

I have 8 stereo master faders to the D2B. I put a multimono AC1 on each master fader going to the D2B, and on the master fader going to the monitor/stereo out.

I've never actually tried putting the AC1 on every track. When I first started using the AC1 I felt like I couldn't make it work for me. I realized if you mix all your track through it, rather than add it at the end, it's easier to get the sound in my head into real life.

I also using alot of BombFactory and "analog sounding" plugins on my tracks, and just thought the AC1 would be overkill on every track, I guess.

I'm using the SSL G384 compressor. It's got a single VU meter and I purchased it directly from SSL. It's on their website. The unit with the "Crush" mode is quite different from the true SSL. I used it just once about 2 years ago but I can't really give you any real feedback on it.

I just think the stereo mix deserves something better than a plugin. I also think the stereo mix shouldn't be too processed. I've heard of people putting all sorts of sound sweeting stuff on the 2 bus, but I prefer to just stick to a real compressor, and mixing through the AC1. I also add an L2 so the client can walk home with a relatively loud CD, but try not to use too much of it, depending on the client. Let mastering take care of that.

I work on primarily rock music, but occasionally some jazz work too. I find this method works well for anything I throw at it.

[narcoman]

Hi,

Just picking up on something Extreme Mixing said earlier and a couple of other peeps also.

The gist seems to be that you need to do loads of processing to get the unprocessed natural sound. Well, when you think about it the raw unprocessed sound in PT is the natural sound. By smashing stuff through good analogue gear and "simmering" that mix, your actual;ly processing stuff. I too have done the comparing older Soundcraft Ghost mixes ive done with my PT in the box stuff, and whilst my PT mixes are much more saleable (production mostly, not particularly the mix)_ the ol' ghost mixes had a certain "glue " !.

The big thing really these days is that we're all having to figure out what "analogue" gear actually did to the sound. Hence terms like "warmth" "cooking the bass" etc etc. All those great "warm" mixes are the result of achieving the results one can through the gear. Now we have raw sampled sound - and its not as nice as we thought! So we're looking into exactly how that so called "real" sound of analogue/tube gear and tape actually wrecked our sounds in a pleasing way and made us better than we really are !

Just an observation

cheers

[N]

Hey Guys,

I think the topic is very interesting too. I Listened to stuff I had done with logic and the 8 outputs of an audiowerks card going through a Mackie 1604, a LONG time ago.
I had to use this very old track again so I just premastered it a little bit with some of the stuff I have required since. In this case C4 and L2.
It's unbearable to say, but it sounds awesome. I'm having a hard time getting close to what this ridiculous setup could accomplish.

I remember with ironi how i walked around praying that I could get everything digital, so that I wouldn't "lose" anything.

Anyway. For me the toughest thing about digital mixing, even though I am after all so young that I don't have much experience with much else, is making the ingredients blend. Especially getting the vocals in to the mix. LPF aren't that bad and helps me. Sometimes a very good and lucky mastering engineer has given me a good day when I got something back from mastering, but this is unfortunately hard to rely on :-)
I also have Tube tech, Teletronix, DBX, amek, and focusrite outboard that I use, mainly on vocals. Helps too. But I can't make my mixes sound as well as what comes out of expensive US productions. And that sucks!

Can somebody help me a little bit with two things:

1. Getting vocals into the mix where they belong.

2. Telling me exactly what headroom is? My understanding of the word is the volume at which you can turn up something before it can't take more. And thus a very sore point, talking digital mixing.
Are high end consoles just like miracle machines that allows you to do more not doing anything, mainly because of headroom?

FYI I work with a mix3 system.

Thanks for all the interesting posts on the subject...
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