advice on microphones, microphone pre-amps and compressors.

[makerthemaker]

I need some advice on microphones, microphone pre-amps and compressors. Let me explain, I am about to embark on recording my pop/rock band in my 32 Trk TDM Pro Tools system in Los Angeles. I have a limited budget lets say around $4k to $5k for microphones, pre-amps and compressor. I need top notch sound quality because the record will be going to top 40/hot ac radio, after we raise about $200k for radio promotion just to start out. I hear the Destresser Compresser is a must have, Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Rental is also an option, if anyone knows a great place to rent in LA let me know.
Thank you very much,
Maker

[CO2]

I would reccomend contacting Audio Affects in Burbank, CA at (818) 980-4006. Speak to Mark Napier.

Also, Audio Rents in Hollywood is an excellent rental company.

Good luck on your project!

Best Regards

[PTUser NYC]

Maker,

Fair enough. It is true that you wouldn't find a world class producer for $4,000. Still, I suspect you could have access to more quality gear renting studio time.

Unfortunately, $4,000 isn't gonna buy you a lot of quality mic pres, compressors or mics either.

Thanks for your understanding of my intent - I really do wish you the best results.

[makerthemaker]

Thank you PTUser NYC
I think I can probably get away with just one great mic pre, one great compressor and one great mic. Everything else I will need I can just rent. I'll just be tracking one thing at a time since I will have the drums done in a studio with all the toys I need.

[PTUser NYC]

I dunno.

Its been my experience that when you track different instruments through different methods (different mic, different pre, different compressor etc) that it is MUCH easier to seperate them in the mix, and give them each specific personalities.

Of course, many great recordings have been made where this was not true - where the console was the only mic preamp available. Still, I think that having at least two choices would help a lot.

If I had to make some choices, I guess I'd opt for an Averill Neve 1272, and a Focusrite Red 8 mic for mic preamps. I know some people will scoff at the Red, but I really think those two complement each other very well. They are very different. I'd advise some API too, but you said the drums are being cut somewhere else, so maybe you don't need them right away.

I'd think about trying the Neve for lead vocals, guitar, and bass, and use the Focusrite for acoustic guitar (and other acoustic instruments), background vocals, percussion, and to bring back synths (through a DI).

I'd advise at least one high quality multi pattern large diaphragm condenser (I like the Neumann U87, others may disagree), a pair of small diaphragm condensers such as Neumann km184s, some good dynamics (Shure SM57, Sennheiser 421, EV RE20?) and perhaps a ribbon mic. You can use the ribbon and the large diaphragm comdenser for MS stereo in applications where the pair of small diaphragms aren't 'right'.

For compression, an LA-2a, and an 1176 will do a lot. If you get the distressor, it can get you part of the way there on the 1176, and do alot more, but I still think you'd miss the LA-2a on lead vocals. Naturally, there are a million other choices too, I'm just taking a stab here.

Unfortunately, the 2 mic pres alone will almost blow your budget. So would just the mics, or just the 2 compressors. This is why I still think you'd be better off renting studio time IF this project is the goal.

If your goal is to build up a collection of gear over time, any of these is a good choice, and will complement other good stuff you may buy later. I advise this over getting a lot of cheaper stuff, most of which will not hold up to other purchases over time.

[Felix]

Soundelux U195, Royer 121, or 122.
Empirical Fatso,
wow that's a small budget!
Funkenworks V72,
UA 610, i've heard Summit Audio is great for rock gtr's.

[rtcstudio]

For great sound in a lot of different applications, and on a small budget:

1. Audio Technica 4060 Tube Mic (large diaphram)
2. Vintech Audio X73 Mic Pre/Eq (Neve clone, they use Neve parts, updated somewhat)
3. Distressor EL8 with all the Mods

Street/Mail order prices:

1. $995
2. $1600 plus $200 for a 4 unit power supply
3. $1600 (with all the mods)

The Distressor has an LA-2A emulation mode, among others. Not the original, but very warm and nice. It also has a tape saturation mode (third harmonic distortion) which is great. The above prices are just over your $4000 limit, but this is a very versatile rig for that price. I've used this set-up on guitars (acoustic and electric) and vocals. I have also recorded synths and electric pianos thru the Vintech's, they have an instrument level input on the front.

[joestudio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by rtcstudio:
[QB]

2. Vintech Audio X73 Mic Pre/Eq (Neve clone, they use Neve parts, updated somewhat)
QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The Amek 9098 CIB is ##### incredible. Never tried distorted guitars on it, but for everything else - wow.


JS

[makerthemaker]

rtcstudio-
Thank you so much, can you tell me where I can buy all of the things you mentioned online.
Thank you
Maker

[makerthemaker]

is this a smart choice

DISTRESSOR EL8 $1,350.00
AVALON VT-737-SP VACUUM TUBE $i,999.00
BLUE BLUEBERRY MICROPHONE $999.00

[PTUser NYC]

This reply is intended as helpful advice, I do not mean to be argumentative or obnoxious in any way, but just to be helpful.

If you don't already have a good idea about which microphones, mic preamps and compressors you prefer, then you probably don't have a lot of experience using them. In my experience, having the good gear is only a small percentage of the battle. Knowing how to use it judiciously is much more difficult.

For instance, what would you tell a novice painter who asks 'what brushes should I use to paint with?' Certainly having the right equipment is improtant, buit what to do with it is MUCH more crucial, and takes a lot longer to get a handle on.

my advice is to use your budget to rent time at a good recording studio, and to work with a good engineer and producer. Your money will certainly allow more 'good stuff' on your recordings, and more importantly, the experience of how to use it.

Now I am not against learning as you go. having a TDM rig, and all the hours in the world to use it is a GREAT learning experience, and will teach you about these things. The problem is that it usually takes years to learn all that you would need to know to make a commercially viable product, and it sounds as if you already have deadlines and are going to be trying to bring something to market quickly.

There is nothing wrong with hiring engineers and producers. Most great artists don't weave their own canvass, make their paint at home from scratch and build their own brushes.

Good luck, and again, no offense meant, I want your product to sound the best it can. besides, if the involvement of others makes your product sound better, and it does well, you will be much further along the road to success, and a budget to buy a LOT more gear.

Hire pros, and keep your eyes and ears open, not only will your product sound better, but you can learn a LOT too.

[makerthemaker]

PTUser NYC-
Thanks for you advice, I actually do know what to get and how to use it, I was just looking for suggestions from others. I've been working with Pro Tools for 7 years and have made (as an artist) two major label records with two very famous producers. I am no longer signed to a major and I have taken it upon myself to go ahead with the recording of our record. I will not be tracking drums in my studio because the room is not that great. I will be going to a friends studio to do them. So I'm looking for opinions on what other people are using for vocals and acoustic guitars etc. I currently use a KSM 32 for vocals and various other Shure mics for instruments, because of lack of money in the past I've been using an ART mic-pre and Digi comp's Wave comp's etc. Also like I said I only have a low budget of about $4-$5k for equipment, I hardly think that even if I neded one I could find a great producer/engineer for such a price. So thank you very much for your words
Maker

[Stone Knife]

Give the Rode NTK a listen! Incredible value and delicious sound comparable to the U-87, for 1/6th the price. BPM Express sells 'em for $405 shipping included.

[Jules]

ROYER SF12 stereo ribbon mic for overheads . perc and Acc gtr, get the right mic pre for it.. ask Fletcher at http://www.mercenary.com

Tell him I sent you.

images/icons/smile.gif

[Fritz]

It can be done. Stay away from esoterica. True 8 pack of pres. API, Focusrite Octo.
Get a good stereo tube comb as well as the EL8s, if the budget permits. Pendulum, Manley, TubeTec, Summit.
AT 4050, 4060, 4047 are great mics for the $. And they’ll cover just about anything and get great sound. Get AudioRents.com list. Maybe DreamHire? Unfortunately, they don’t show any 8 packs on their page. Perhaps you could make a deal with them to buy the 8 pack and swap them after the tracks for the cost of other rentals for the project.
Make your list. Write it out. Approach them for a project deal. Don’t drop your cards. Rental biz stinks now, they’d be fools not to give you a good deal. I can get 50% on their quoted prices in NY. I can’t imagine you couldn’t do the same. If you rent a month, the usual deal is you pay less then 10 days. Sell baby!! Good prep for when the CD is finished. Good luck!

[J. Darby]

I would have to plug the NT1 with a trackmaster.. can't go wrong there!!
Just finished a band project myself www.tyrell.ie (http://www.tyrell.ie)

[talco]

I'll assume you are recording the vocals with this rig. My advice microphone wise is that every singer sounds different on any given mic so before you buy anything
assemble a selection of mics and get your lead singer to audition them side by side and it will be clear which is the best choice for him or her. I've found that this is the only real way to evaluate gear.
You can rent ,puchase and return, borrow from friends to assemble the necessary array. Good Luck!

[Donny]

Hey Maker,
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. I pay about a grand for some studio time in a great room with a great mic cabinet, mic pres, compressors, engineer that knows the room and the whole nine to track drums and then do the rest at home on my Mix plus rig. I like the AT mics and really think they are a fabulous bang-for-the-buck - I have the 4050. I did some vocal tracking (male) at the studio using a Telefunken U47 but we ended up using the 4050 at my place for vocals anyway! The client and I sat down together and compared the two and it was really difficult to say which sounded "better" - just different. The U47 definitely had that more "high-end" sound (sorry about the lame adjective) compared to the 4050 but there were some qualities about the 4050 that we both liked better. We ended up going with the 4050 tracks, mostly because the vocal performance was more relaxed and happening doing it in my home studio. Of course, I'd rather own the U47 but the client was totally satisfied so I'm gonna run with this until I can afford something way high-end like the U47! I'm not always satisfied with the 4050's results but it often surprises me. Did a VO session with it and threw a micmod plug on it using a Beyer mic as the output and it blew the VO guy away so much that he keeps sending me other VO guys to polish up their demos. Dang, I don't even like doing that stuff but the mic has paid for itself dozens of times over because of that! I don't think they know how inexpensive it is (and I'm not tellin')! As far as pres, I'm using the Avalon M1 and am very happy with that as well. Seems to be a good combo with the 4050. One unforseen benefit was that I plugged my early '70's Jazz bass into the hi z input and the sound of the bass just blew my socks off! Had a dead set of round wound strings on it at the time but tracking it through the M1 actually helped me to appreciate the sound of a dead set of strings like never before. Turns out, sonically, there's still a lot going on with dead strings. Who knew! Sorry if I got a little off topic but I hope you find some of this rambling usefull! The best of luck to you with your project and shoot a post back to let us all know what ya find out. Peace!
Oh yeah, don't have any opinions on compressors, sorry.

[Stone Knife]

James Jamerson played flatwound strings that were over 15 years old!
His lousy, dead strings can be heard on:

My Girl - Temptations
Bernadette - 4 Tops
Aint That Peculiar - Marvin Gaye
Ooh Baby Baby - The Miracles
To Many Fish In The Sea - The Marvelettes
Uptight (Everything Is Alright) - Stevie Wonder
Heat Wave - Martha & The Vandellas
This Old Heart Of Mine - Isley Brothers
I Heard It Through The Grapevine (2 recordings) - Marvin Gaye, Gladys Knight & Pips
Where Did Our Love Go - Diana/Supremes
Since I Lost My Baby - Temptations
For Once In My Life - Stevie Wonder
My Guy - Mary Wells
Your Precious Love - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell
You've Really Got A Hold On Me - The Miracles
Love Child - Diana/Supremes
I Guess I'll Always Love you
Dancing In The Streets - Martha & The Vandellas
Don't Mess With Bill - The Marvelettes
What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
Standing In The Shadows Of Love - 4 Tops
Mickey's Monkey - The Miracles
Cloud Nine - Temptations
Nothing's To Good For My Baby - Temptations
My Baby Loves Me - Martha & The Vandellas
You Keep Me Hanging On - Diana/Supremes
You Beat Me To The Punch - Mary Wells
Little Darling (I Need You) - 4 Tops
I'm Ready For Love
The Way You Do The Things You Do - Temptations
I Can't Help Myself - 4 Tops
Roadrunner - Jr. Walker & The All-Stars
You're All I Need To Get By - Temptations
You Can't Hurry Love - Diana/Supremes
Shop Around - The Miracles
Ain't To Proud To Beg - Temptations
My Cherie Amour - Stevie Wonder
It's The Same Old Song - 4 Tops
How Sweet It Is - Marvin Gaye
Take Me In Your Arms (And Rock Me A Little While) - Brenda Holloway
Ain't No Mountain High Enough (2 recordings) - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell, Diana/Supremes
My Baby Must Be A Magician - The Marvelettes
Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart - Diana/Supremes
Beauty Is Only Skin Deep - Temptations
Ask The Lonely - 4 Tops
Going To A Go-Go - The Miracles
I was Made To Love Her - Stevie Wonder
Hitch Hike - Marvin Gaye
I Second That Emotion - The Miracles
Please Mr. Postman - The Marvelettes
Jimmy Mack - Martha & The Vandellas
I Hear A Symphony - Diana/Supremes
Shake Me, Wake Me (When It's Over) - 4 Tops
I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Temptations
Get Ready - Temptations
The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game
Stop! In The Name Of Love - Diana/Supremes
That's What Love Is Made Of
Nowhere To Run - Martha & The Vandellas
Seven Rooms Of Gloom - 4 Tops
Pride & Joy - Marvin Gaye
(I Know) I'm Losing You - Temptations
Two Lovers - Mary Wells
I'll Turn To Stone - 4 Tops
Come See About Me - Diana/Supremes
Stubborn Kind Of Fellow - Marvin Gaye
How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone
If I Were your Woman Gladys Knight & The Pips
My World Is Empty Without You - Diana/Supremes
The Tracks Of My Tears - The Miracles
I'm Wondering - Stevie Wonder
Can I Get A Witness - Marvin Gaye
The Girls Alright With Me - Temptations
Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Da Day - Stevie Wonder
Reflections - Diana/Supremes
What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted - Temptations
Baby I Need Your Loving - 4 Tops
Quicksand... - Martha & The Vandellas
Reach Out...I'll Be There - 4 Tops
You Beat Me To The Punch - Mary Wells
The Bells - The Originals
Shotgun - Jr. Walker & The All-Stars
Fingertips (pt2)- Stevie Wonder
Hey Girl - Stevie Wonder
What Are You Gonna Do When I'm Gone - Kim Weston
Still Water Runs Deep - Four Tops All in the Game - Four Tops
My Baby - Temptations
The One Who Really Loves You -Mary Wells
This Old Heart Of Mine - Isley Brothers
My Whole World Ended (The Moment You Left) - David Ruffin
It Takes Two - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell
Honey Chile - Martha & the Vandellas
To Busy Thinking About My Baby - Marvin Gaye
When Your Young And In Love - Marvelettes
Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell
Still Waters Run Deep - Four Tops
If I Were Your Woman - Gladys Knight & the Pips
I Want You Back - Jackson 5

[village1]

rode ntk or neuman u87
brent averill neve 1272
empirical labs distressor

$4,000 of good sounds

[Donny]

Whoops - I meant to say Avalon M5 and not M1. Guess I was thinking about the Korg M1 and making it painfully obvious that I'm more of a musician than a recording engineer!http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb//images/icons/smile.gif Anyway, thanks alot to the guy that took time to post the James Jamerson discography! I was unaware that James played on so many wonderful American music classics using his '62 Fender P bass (affectionitley called "The Funk Machine"), strung with old heavy guage La Bella Flat Wire Wound Polished - Stainless strings "For FENDER", with the foam mute under the bridge bell. http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb//images/icons/wink.gif Oh yeah, to the same guy....why do you say "lousy" dead strings? Nuthin lousy about 'em but when you're trying to achieve a more "modern" tone, the dead strings don't always cut it. If you're going for that "Jamerson" sound or an older country vibe, it's perfect but there ARE WAY more harmonic overtones (stuff going on sonically, like I said) with a new set of round wounds than with a 15 year old set of La Bella flat wounds. I've read that Jamerson lost work later in his career because of his refusal to slap some new strings on his bass. Gotta stay modern if you want to keep working as a studio musician unless people are hiring you for "your sound". Sound aside, recording technology got better and made things like poor intonation more painfully obvious and you just can't properly intonate a 15 year old set of strings. Almost seems rediculous and laughable that I would even have to defend my post! http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb//images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[jaysun]

that's a long list of songs!!
if you can spring the rental you should check out the manley vox box...
great on vocals and sounds real good on bass gtr..
good luck!!!

[makerthemaker]

Thank you to everyone!!!!
It's so cool to have this user conference!!!!!
I am very grateful

Maker

[tone-salad]

Try the API 312 mic pre copy made by
OLD SCHOOL AUDIO they use all quality
parts like jensen transformers and
API 2520 discrete preamps and the sound is
the best in its price range. They sound
great. Best of all the signal path is so
simple that this contributes to their
great sound.

Picture and info at the URL below :
http://www.db-engineering.com/Instock_22201.htm

[Stone Knife]

Hi-
(nice link, tone-salad)
I was in the middle of replying and the power went out a couple days ago; I was referring to Jamerson's "Lousy" strings to poke some fun at the notion that "Old" IS "Lousy" by virtue of being old. images/icons/wink.gif
I'm not sure, but I think that's him on Midnight Train To Georgia, too; one of my all-time favorite bass lines.

NTK is a must-have. For the price it's even more tasty...

[The Weed]

I'll second the Rode NTK. Mine's on order because the first one I bought a friend of mine with cash jobs in the works had to have after I auditioned the NTK at his studio. Same thing happened last year when I took my (first) Rode NT1000 to his studio. The NTK is the NT1000, just more of it. As Bruce Richardson at www.prorec.com (http://www.prorec.com) said - the NTK is the NT1000 on steroids. For the money, you absolutely can't beat it.

Cheers

[Donny]

Sorry Stone - guess I got a little sensitive there. images/icons/smile.gif Midnight Train is a great track and I too am curious about the bass player on that one. I guess there's folks that claim that Bob Babbit played on it. Such a shame that Motown didn't give musician credits in those days. My favorite is the Jamerson line on the Jackson Five's "Darling Dear" from the Third Album. I'm thinking that was a "B" side of one of the hits on that recording. Sorry about taking this post so far off topic. Should almost start a new "what's your favorite Jamerson line" thread! images/icons/smile.gif

[Stone Knife]

No prob! BTW, then, if you do decide on an NTK or several, BPM Express in Colorado sell 'em for $405 each, 2-day FedEx included. New! -can be OK too. images/icons/cool.gif

[tone-salad]

Stone Knife ,

Checkout this cool mic .....

http://www.prosoundweb.com/reco rding/tapeop/tube_mic_25_1.shtml (http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/tapeop/tube_mic_25_1.shtml)

tell me what you think , looks interesting ..ay

a used mic is easy to find and easier to do the mods but I have not heard it yet ????

[Stone Knife]

I recently heard a mic shootout TEST (http://www.videopark.com/mictest.htm)
with that Marshall on an acoustic guitar (wouldn't have been many people's first choice for that instrument) nevertheless, it sounded better than the more expensive Marshall (V-67) and a Neumann (I think it was a 147) which was a surprise. That it sounded good on an acoustic guitar is interesting in itself. The 2001 is the first one in the test.
That's the only experience I have with this 2001... you just might want to get one and see what it's good for by itself, first!
Good hunting... ( images/icons/wink.gif Keep an NTK under your pillow just in case)

[andrew haller]

I have the Marshall tube mic, and it rocks.I did a shoot out with a u 87, a tlm 170. and the Marshall,using an Avalon 737 straight to tape.I do alot of hard rock so the mic has to handle the spl's.(singers like Klause Meine,David Coverdale,Jeff Scott Soto)The 87 Sucked ,really dark.The tlm was good,but we would have had to rent it for a while,so it wasn't worth it.The Marshall just had clarity.Nice top end without being too bright /harsh.Low mid and bottom were close to the tlm, but it fit nicely in the track.
I think I paid 600.00 for it.

[Stone Knife]

What model was that $600 Marshall? I didn't realise they had anything that expensive.

[andrew haller]

It's the v 77

[Stone Knife]

Thank you!