Thick Guitars

[MichaelL]

What do you all do to get the really thick 'Wall of Guitars' sound? I've got a client who really wants the Zakk Wylde sound. Right now, we've got a decent sound going as a result of double-mic, double-tracking and stereo panning. While it sounds pretty good, when compared to the latest Ozzy CD, it sounds relatively small.

Where do you go from here?......11?

[upetewd]

zakk uses a jcm800 with a distortion pedal. So it's not that complicated. I think volume plays a big part in it as well, really get the air moving. What I do is use a pod pro, double track, hard left and right, and a third track up the middle but low, and it rips.. I've always had trouble miking a cabinet to get the balls i get out of the ppro...

Dave

[Mike Tholen]

I use a JCM 800 mic'ed with a Coles 4038 'bout 12 inches from the center of a speaker maybe further.
through a Telefunken V76s, Neve 1099 EQ, Telefunken U73b kompressor, then it's off to 2". then finally dumped into PT.
I often do multiple tracks and mix to taste later.
It also has everything to do with the player.period.
Zack has MASSIVE hands, incedible strength and attitude that comes through his guitar.
I think he uses Les Paul standards with EMG 85's.
nonetheless I have found that ribbon mics do wonders with distorted guitar.
no matter what the player. same goes for 2". images/icons/wink.gif

[Gil Parente]

Hey Michael,
assuming all the equipment on the signal path is very good, I've tried just using a SM57 in one speaker, U87 on another, PZM on the floor in front of the cabinet and a room mic, 149 or 147, it worked really well..
good luck,
happy thanks giving.
Gil

[delphypop]

57 and 421 is a common big guitar sound.
also seen 509's being used. I think I saw those mics in the metallica black album recording of video.
all of that helps but it is 80% attitude in the playing. play it hard and it comes out big. same with drums.
The only instrument where playing it hard doesn't seem to work is bass guitar where you get into clanks and click teritiory.
Volume is really important to wit guitar, turn it up and let those speakers and valves compress.

I've recently been using my neumann tlm 103 as well and they give a different sound that I quite like. that more open drive sound. quite useful for an overly dense song.

lastly

EQ

solid bass end, and keep the hi end down. I went through a low pass phase where I was knocking everything over 6 k off, and I still like this sound a little. also get good density in the 800 - 2k area but be careful round 3.5k. horrible harshness there. a little bit of thinning round 250 -400 might be needed.

[Robin Hughes]

A couple of things.

Track many times. EQ the sounds so that they are different. Pan high freq EQed sounds hard left and right , leave bass EQed sounds in the middle.

Try DIing a feed from the same miced amp and put it through amp farm.

Gate all tracks from the same key input , this gives the punch that is important for that feeling of power.

Manson uses a whole 24 trk reel for guitars. Also try using spatial effects on some of the traks to increase the width of the wall of sound. Think space and dimension. What is a wall like how does it apear too you visually , try to recreate this sonically.

Above all experiment , use your ears and do not try to follow so called rules.

Bring your imagination of a visual experience into the world of sound.

Trust me .. it works.

[Andy Sneap]

Here we go again!! If ya pod pro sounds better than a mic'd cab you need to buy an sm57, Vintage Marshall Cab and a jcm 800 or a boogie. Zakk was using a super overdrive from my recolection and his les pauls have an 81 and an 85 from what I've read. Does any one actually like that new ozzy album by the way, I was extreamley dissapointed, can anyone tell what he's saying anymore.....does he know what he's saying anymore?? images/icons/grin.gif

[Robin Hughes]

Not using a Pod instead of a Miced Amp , but as well. It provides a different sound which can be used to fill the sound out in a different way. If you don't like it you can drop it , but if you do it is always there.

[5down1up]

can u try to explain please how you guys track the guitars ??? are you recording every mic to an track or are u premixing em and bring em on disk ? a lot of people in here are telling their major problems " well my guitars dont sound good " , ... would be cool if you could describe what you are doing before you look for an answer of those problems . go 4 it images/icons/grin.gif

[Robin Hughes]

can u try to explain please how you guys track the guitars ??? are you recording every mic to an track or are u premixing em and bring em on disk ?

////

Depends on your track count. I tend to leave combination of ambient and direct mics to mixdown ... but when working on 2" 24 trk I compress them and mix them to tape.

Often enough if going to track 6 or 8 times I use only one mic , a SM57 , on the cab ... or perhaps a NeumannTLM103 if wanting to get more of the bottom end.

I usually track atleast 3 overdubs , but if time permitts around 6. I then EQ these all differently , perhaps muck around with a spacializer on 2 of them ... and then Pan these in a fan shape , the edgier sounds towards the extreemes.

Get a good sound on the Amp first and try to replicate this through the mic. Sometimes I find Mic Modeller can beef up guitar sounds that are too thin.

I also often DI each take clean and put Sans Amp or Amp Farm accross it to fill out the sound of the Miced feed.

At the end of the day just throw away what doesn't work. ( the glorious advantage of ProTools )

[Andy Sneap]

one 57 , close mic'd, tracked 4 times, tighter than a tight thing in a tight room

[MichaelL]

Thanks for the input all, some greeat advice here. I'm real happy with what I've got going and the client is ecstatic. In the interest of going from good to great, what are your thoughts on EQ treatment?

[Robin Hughes]

Depends on the guitar/amp sound but one of my favourites is 4 trks in two pairs. One panned pair is boosted at 750hz and 1k5Hz , the other at 1kHz and 2kHz with a tight Q.

A bassier Guitar fed up the middle emphasizing the low range between 250Hz and 600Hz with all the highs cut away gives body but leaves frequency space for the vocals in the center of the mix.

[Mike Tholen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Depends on the guitar/amp sound but one of my favourites is 4 trks in two pairs. One panned pair is boosted at 750hz and 1k5Hz , the other at 1kHz and 2kHz with a tight Q.

A bassier Guitar fed up the middle emphasizing the low range between 250Hz and 600Hz with all the highs cut away gives body but leaves frequency space for the vocals in the center of the mix. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think your overthinking the situation.
I've never had to use such tactics to get a good/thick tone.
most of the time it's a small dip around 500 and a small bell at around 4k for some mo bite if needed.
why such an analytical approach? you'll have more fun if you just go with your instincts. NOT TECHIE ANALYSYS' images/icons/shocked.gif images/icons/shocked.gif

[Robin Hughes]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> you'll have more fun if you just go with your instincts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have fun. Please , he asked for information ... and " go with your instincts " is good advice. Sharing doesn't have to be a battle of opinions.

"Opinions are for the men who do not wish to think" - T.H. White

[Andy Sneap]

Hey Robin, just wondered how you manage the mid range on your bass with that theory or do you agree with me that the bass player is only there to keep the drummer company on tour??? only kidding,...the bass players too busy shagging the guitarists girlfriend to make friends with anyone. it's whatever works for you. I'm with Mike on this though, we seem to agree on things here. remember it's all about what shapes you throw rather than tone. All this multi mic rubbish means nothing when you can jump 5ft! just dont use a Pod! you NEED air movement.
One other thing.. Has any one else noticed no difference whatsoever between half these plugins everyone is raving about on this board?? Is it me or would a slight movement of the mic be more valuable than the latest eq or am I causing heresy saying that??? ..OOOOhhh listen to the tail on that verb...... That'll sell another 10 copies.....

[5down1up]

digidesign should allow to upload sounds .
i guess their is a big different about " guitars and guitars " . or post some links to your soundfiles so we`ll all know what you mean if u say " thick " .
lets hear it images/icons/grin.gif

[swablar]

I agree with Mr. Sneap,
I'm very familiar with Andy's work and if you're going for heavy guitar, he knows his stuff.
Big mean guitars.
I work with a close friend of his and we employ the same proven techniques.....
1 57, in the right spot on a good cab with a good gtr and player. DONE

it's not the only way, but it works

[Andy Sneap]

go to www.andysneap.com (http://www.andysneap.com) and there are links to mp3s there

[Frox]

Excuse me but what is the best amp/guitar for guitarist who play in C ? (www.insideconflict.com)

[tom_mac]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Andy Sneap:

One other thing.. Has any one else noticed no difference whatsoever between half these plugins everyone is raving about on this board?? Is it me or would a slight movement of the mic be more valuable than the latest eq or am I causing heresy saying that??? ..OOOOhhh listen to the tail on that verb...... That'll sell another 10 copies.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK...OK ...OK I'm Guilty of that ...damn you REAL engineers with your good ears ,
and your years of experience...thanks for the advise images/icons/smile.gif

[Digi9000000]

The fact that you worked on a Kreator album has me on my knees worshipping. I spent way too many days driving around with Extreme Aggression or Coma Of Souls playing.

[Andy Sneap]

Excellent!!! Glad to see someone still enjoys metal as much as me!

[delphypop]

andy- I checked out one of your tracks(pissing razors-season) and liked the guitar sound alot. Not sure about the ultra toppy kick drum and low cymbals thoug. I guessit gives room for the guitars but half the grunt of heavy music is from the drummer and half the drummers drive comes from smaking the sh*t out of his cymbals.
I noticed you got a wonderfully smooth top end on the gat sound.
I commonly get a nasty bite in the 3.5k range on some driven valve amps. Especially my marshall jcm800 lead combo thing.
a 4 x 12 and 100 watt 800 head helps in that it gives better bass. Even so you're guitar top end is pretty damn fine. any secrets?


I liked the cross genre sound of the band too. Smart enough to avoid the cliches of metal which a lot of bands get stuck with.

Cheers and keep up the good sounds.

[Andy Sneap]

With the faster stuff the oh's are usually the hardest thing to get right. The hi hat is killing everything and the drummer is coming of the kit that quick he doesn't get any power behind his cymbal hits...so that all depends on the drummer.
Gtrs and top end...I find the actual cab makes a huge difference, like you wouldn't beleive if you haven't had chance to A/B things. Try a 30 or 25 wt celestion against a standard 75 and you'll see what I mean. Especially for downtuned stuff, the midrange sounds correct to me , were with a 75 is sounds all phasey...though sometimes the 75 works. Definately liking the dual rectifier and 30 wt celestions best for tracking at the moment though.
Toppy kick drums???? This is thrash metal, they have to have top end else you'll never hear them.
images/icons/grin.gif

[Andy Sneap]

With the faster stuff the oh's are usually the hardest thing to get right. The hi hat is killing everything and the drummer is coming of the kit that quick he doesn't get any power behind his cymbal hits...so that all depends on the drummer.
Gtrs and top end...I find the actual cab makes a huge difference, like you wouldn't beleive if you haven't had chance to A/B things. Try a 30 or 25 wt celestion against a standard 75 and you'll see what I mean. Especially for downtuned stuff, the midrange sounds correct to me , were with a 75 is sounds all phasey...though sometimes the 75 works. Definately liking the dual rectifier and 30 wt celestions best for tracking at the moment though.
Toppy kick drums???? This is thrash metal, they have to have top end else you'll never hear them.
images/icons/grin.gif

[Andy Sneap]

Ohhh double post...why the hell does that happen. One thing though. I don't think I had anything to do with that track!! Only did first two razors albums, self titled one and cast down the plague. I don't know.. thats a while ago now, things get a little hazy, especially song titles.