MIDI guitar controllers

[Jim S]

Roland, Yamaha, Starrs, other? Any forum members with experience with any of them.
I tried the Roland in a store and it's pretty good with mild tracking problems. However, I have heard it can be a p.i.t.a. to use with other sound modules.

[lwilliam]

I've tried all the Roland units as they come out. The tracking delay is really rough to deal with on any external module. You also get a lot of "ghost" and "double" notes - even when you're playing very cleanly.

For live it might be ok, for recording, it takes a bit a cleanup on the midi track before you can use it.

I don't think the technology is quite there yet.


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LW

[robert jaybird]

If you listen to the King Crimson album thrak attack there is extensive midi guitar and it comes off great( all live). Sadly the pitch to midi systems sort of blow compared to what could be if roland and others would mass produce z-tar type controllers or create much more extensive pitch detection that utilises the entire fretboard.

A few other things:
-Besides rolands gk-2a there are RMC midi pickups that are fitted on the bridge by a luthier. These are what come on godin multiacs and the lower end brian moores. They look better and perform better as well. Almost all the signifigant guitarists that use the roland units rely on this(Pat Metheny, Al Di Meola, Lee Rittenour,Leo Kottke, Alan Holdsworth, Steve Morse).

- Theres also the midiaxe midi to pitch conversion. Under this system the whole process actually takes place within the guitar and from that you can plug into any midi module. Im not sure but I think the high end parkers and brian moores have this option.

-In the 80's there was a company that made a midi controller called Synthaxe. These are rare and expensive. Youd probably be better off with starr labs z-tar than that. But its been made visible by the likes of Alan Holdsworth who prefers it to other systems.

- If you look on ebay there is the yamaha g-10 and the casio dg-20. These things are like toys.But, they can get the job done
if its that or piano lessons.

- You mentioned yamaha. Well, theyre g 50 uses *old* AXON technology. Axon makes pitch to midi systems that use a slightly different technology employing what they call a "neural net" to follow your playing. The result of this process is superior performance with external midi modules. In fact, while it comes with some sounds as an option those will be dissapointing as it is made to work with other modules.

<The drawback of this faster tracking sytem is that with certain playing techniques it gets glitchy>
In otherwords if you have any ambition towards fingerstyle midiguitar dont get the axon ax 100 or the yamaha g 50. And generally fingerstyle helps when playing chords with non guitar sounds(as you can imagine)

You should look at midi guitar as its own instrument. With the gr 33 your playing a real guitar with your feel and vibrato and stringbends et al. With the z-tar your hitting velocity sensitive key triggers on a fretboard and using a joysick to bend notes. The z-tar isnt glitchy though, and tracking is not an issue.

Personally, my gr 33 is on its way, should be here tomorrow. For now im going to use the gk-2a and see how it goes. I do have some apprehension about attatching one to my prs or my Guild Starfire III. If you love your guitars consider the overall superior rme pickups, or me personally am going to find a cheapo yamaha pacifica to screw it into.

[Jim S]

Thanks for the info folks. Is this place the greatest?!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW Robert, you appear to have an extensive knowledge and experience base. Any comment or experience with Palmer speaker simlulator or other guitar amp->DI devices? (maybe post your reply in the thread on guitar preamps at http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002402.html



[This message has been edited by Jim S (edited March 03, 2001).]

[sandman]

HEY http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif why do you call the g10/g10c A toy??
the g10 has pitch , mod wheel ,pgm , many controling functions
for ajusting the preformance ...

did you played with this model ....
does the roland gear is much better ??

cheers

[editor]

Hey LW,

I have the Roland GM-70, you are dead on, its cool, but needs a midi clean up always. I think midi trackers are just not quite there yet; but I have high hopes for them in the future, as well as high hopes for midi drum technology.

I have found that if you tune the guitar as high as you can, the tracking gets tighter, I am talking almost an octave higher though.


Regards

e

[This message has been edited by editor (edited March 04, 2001).]

[Jim S]

Originally posted by editor:
I have found that if you tune the guitar as high as you can, the tracking gets tighter, I am talking almost an octave higher though.

And turn the truss rod 12 full revolutions clockwise! http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by Jim S (edited March 04, 2001).]

[editor]

Use the Sears Strat for this one... http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif

[robert jaybird]

He He...
Sandman, I didnt mean to call the g-10 a toy. I was thinking more of the dg-20. And even the dg 20 being toyish its a $150 deal off ebay if you feel the need to flex guitar licks with a module.
The g-10 is pretty cool, it takes some adjustment, but so what! Its a more serious unit than the dg 20 for sure.

Okay, I wake up this morning and am greeted with a gr 33. WOO WEEE. So, I get it all set up and its tracking SUCKS. But I keep banging away at it and as my fingers loosten up and can firmnly hammer and pull off it gets better.
*Then I read the instructions*
At this point I learn that a lot of the tracking with the gr-33 can be modified within the unit by calibrating each strings sensitivity to your playing style. And when used with its internal sounds I say its just good enough with this newest release.

The sounds? Kind of limited and techno-y, I wasnt totally elated with the sounds but like I said I wasnt expecting that much and really its just enough to go buck nutty with. The saxophones are blasphemous, I almost wish theydve left them off. Its cool playing the trumpet on a guitar. some cool strings and pads. Some funky leads, and some nice bass. For some reason they feel the need to fill presets with 'roided up patches and frequent doses of the arpegiator(yuch).

The verdict? Its good enough that Im gonna use it quite a bit and even save up some change for a godin or brian moore.
If your a guitarist and give it a chance on its own terms itll be a blast( if you have the chops). But, if you expect a jv 1080 for guitar that it aint. And if you play a messy guitar might as well not bother with it.

So the big picture?
I wouldnt want to be limited to only the gr-33 as a controller. Sometimes you need keys, or a z-tar(I wish I had a z-tar) or drum pads. Still, I can do things on guitar that it would take me a decade to learn on the keys, so for this chunk of change the buyers remorse was minimal.Stll it is a pitch to midi system and because of that its not seamless operation.

[52lp]

I'm using a Roland GI-10 interface with a Godin Multiac Grand Concert classical guitar and I can safely say it tracks as well as you can play the part. I've owned many rigs including arp (Ihad 2 avatars,roland,300,g-vox, ect ect)
After teaching guitar for the past 20 years it's clear to see that it has more to do with way we as guitarist play than it is to do with tracking problems ect.
Clean playing=clean tracking.I did my last method that I teach in public schools with g vox and cubase.It involved a lot of midi cleanup.The new method with my current rig and pro tools is taking far less time and almost no midi cleanup.This setup is amazing!

[robert jaybird]

Hi,
Yes, Ive heard that the rme pickups(that are used on the godins) can really help. Using the gk-2a Im still not totally satisfied. I play cleanly, but I use heavy strings and sometimes a legato technique. The gk-2a just doesnt pick up some of those hammer ons and pull off's with the heavy strings. This is REALLY annoying, I play cleanly, and even when I employ the correct technique the system occasionally wont register the note. Then, I can repeat the same phrase played the same way and the note DOES come out.

So, I need to try lower gauge strings and get a brian moore. I think Id rather have a ztar than this( if your debating between the two). The sounds in this module just dont compare to a jv 2080, proteus 2k or yamaha cs6x, and each of those modules performs much better with the z-tar.

Of course running a z-tar into a p2k is $2,000, my gr 33 with gk-2a was $650(bpm music). But doing a little math, by the time I get a brian moore($850) I could have had a z-tar for the price of that and the gr 33.

I havent gotten up the guts to hook the gr 33 up to my sampler yet, thatll be a mess http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif. This is a love/hate piece of equipment.

[JazzKicksAss]

<Any comment or experience with Palmer speaker simulator > used one for a while with my Gibson L4 - didnt really simulate the fat 'pop' of a real cab. Now use Line6 Amp farm which with a bit of delay etc is better. Still - i'm not a HM guitarist so maybe it works well for that...

[DigiTechSupt]

The Axon AX100 was far and away the best MIDI Guitar Controller I have ever used. For more info:
http://www.musicindustries.com/axon/index.html

Brent

[robert jaybird]

Hi,
Theres a very informative mailing group at yahoo groups for midiguitars. This group is often frequented by axon employees, Harvey Starr,and The RME guy(forgot his name) and many roland users. If you ask an intelligent question I'm sure youll get lots of answers. If you ask "is the gr 33 any good" you wont get many (none of them like the gr 33 especially).
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/

Axon is the best with other modules. An Ax100 with a jv1010 would be a bit more advanced than a gr 33. The ax 100 is a big improvement over the yamaha g50 btw.

[Conscious Structure]

Anyone use the Parker MIDI Fly? I've heard good things about it.

------------------
Dave Belazis
Conscious Productions
Conscious Studios

[Jim S]

So I guess it's the Axon or a Ztar (?).

Either would allow me to use other modules like Emu Proteus, Roland JV, sample CD-ROMs into Sample Cell, etc?

[Gulliver]

Had my first midi guitar experience last weekend; GR33.

I was impressed with the tracking, but only because I didn't expect much.

Noted - The friend who had just baught it was able to track way better than myself. I believe this is because I have a very bluesy style with a lot of passing tones and dynamics. His style is more classical and predictable.