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Enrico Donner
04-09-1999, 03:47 AM
I'm thinking about it...
...is it really as impressive as they say?

EricRobinson
04-09-1999, 10:08 AM
I've heard that the Soft Limit is kinda cool is you want a more saturated sound and having all that UV-22 isn't a bad thing, but I'm not sure that it's worth the money. You can get two 888|24's for the price of one AD 8000.

trombino
04-10-1999, 07:24 AM
I had a pretty bad experience with one. I rented one to try it out because I too was thinking about it. I found the unit to be kind of cumbersome to use. I never did get it to work properly, so I can't comment on the sound, but I will say that it was a pain in the ass to use. Plus the fact that you only have 8 inputs or outputs, not at the same time, really sucks. I think too that you would find yourself fussing around a lot with the front panel. It doesn't seem to integrate as seemlessly with Pro Tools as the 888.

YMMV.

04-11-1999, 06:01 PM
It makes setting levels a breeze, flip out the "soft limit" and you have to back it down a bit and then back it down a bit and then back it down a bit and then back it down a bit and then back it down a bit and then back it down a bit and then back it down a bit and then back it down a bit and then back it down a bit and then back it down a bit and then...
getting the picture? Simple a/b test ("one two" and a handclap) with 888/24, Apogee won.Much too expencive though.
V helpfull tec dept, dont mind talking you through stuff, v easy to get on the phone!

[This message has been edited by Julian Standen (edited 04-11-99).]

Enrico Donner
04-12-1999, 09:29 AM
Eric, trombino, Julian: thanx.
Trombino (in Italian this name means something like "gigolo"!)can you please be more specific? You wrote: "I will say that it was a pain in the ass to use". What do you mean? I thought the AD-8000 was a kind of PLUG & PLAY unit!
Has anyone ever really compared the quality of the AD-8000 samples vs. 888|24?

04-12-1999, 02:05 PM
Belive me I am dumb and I learnd it!

Enrico Donner
04-16-1999, 08:35 AM
I make a little resume of the other posts in the Pro Tools Troubleshooting Mac OS Forum:


Jim Morris wrote:
We got an AD8000 for each of our systems to compliment 2 888/24s. For drums the AD8K is amazing. In a frantic session, the soft limit feature will save your sanity!! I also end up doing all my overdubs using the AD8k as my front end. The only problem we've had has been when using a USD and locking to LTC. The
AD8K works great but the 888/24s never seem to lock up correctly. We're still trying to find out why.


Lee Blaske wrote:
I haven't been part of a blind test between these units, but people I trust who have tell me the difference is very undramatic. I've seen posts on other lists claiming that the AD-8000's sound harsh compared to the 888|24. Spec-wise, I think the AD-8000 can claim a slightly less jittery clock, but will that make any real world difference? Keep in mind that 99.9% of the work you'll produce will be played back on consumer devices with clocks that are a lot more jittery than the 888|24's. When was the last time you listened to a CD player and thought "Gee, that CD player's clock sounds awfully jittery."
Maybe you're one of those people who can hear that sort of thing. If so, good for you. The price difference between the two, however, is quite significant, and unless you really need some of the AD-8000's more esoteric features, you'd probably be just as happy with the 888|24. Also keep in mind that when Digi goes 96 khz, they'll most likely offer a trade-in upgrade for the 888|24 (they've always done this in the past). If you buy the AD-8000, you'll most likely be out of luck and stuck
with an obsolete piece of gear.


Julian Standen wrote:
Dramatic was the blind test I initiated! The dealer even saved it and played it back to a friend of mine, months later to sell him an AD8k. Voice and handclap simple, true test. Apogee recon to upgrade units for 96k, digi - trade in...Apogee are already there with 96k on a two channel unit (not for PT). Pricey though....Mine has been out on rental latley to two top mastering houses, that turns me on! rolls royce unit, clients used to adat? Knock em out, used to tape? Keep em sweet ...clients regard recording as a rare treat? buy persian carpets instead and go to Yellostone for a holliday with the change.


Eric Bazilian wrote:
Having often wondered if my $$$ had been well spent (AD8k instead of 888/24), I recently had the following clarifying experience: Having recorded a track on Golden Age Analog 24-Track gear I found it necessary to transfer to PT for some creative editing. Easiest was to transfer via 888 (pre-existing setup). After spending days trying to regain some of the original "punch" (and beginning to wonder if I hadn't, indeed, made a serious mistake in forsaking Analog), I decided to go ahead and re-transfer using my Apogee (big pain...I had to drag my whole system out to the local 2-inch room). Et voila...everything just sounded "better". I can't say how or why, but it certainly rescued what turned out to be a very important session from oblivion.


Wow! This is a great discussion! Thanx guys!

FadeMyButt
05-05-1999, 05:43 PM
I bought the 2 channel apogee convertor (rosetta) to use with protools. I find the soft limit function very helpful, but don't like the fact that it defaults to 44.1k everytime I turn it on.

TMS
05-05-1999, 06:11 PM
Hey fademybutt

Besides the 44.1 default and the soft limit, how do you like the Rossetta? Are you using the UV22 to go to 16 bits? Would you recomend it?

[This message has been edited by TMS (edited 05-05-99).]

Someone You Know
05-06-1999, 01:52 PM
TMS,

I spoke with an Apogee tech extensively about their products. It turns out all of their products use the same converters as in the AD-8000. The Rosetta's main disadvantage, other then only having A/D conversion and not D/A, is that it can't slave - it must be the master. But if you're looking for an afordable front end to PT and all you need is A/D, you'll be hard pressed to get a better quality converter for the price.

[This message has been edited by Someone You Know (edited 05-06-99).]

Baba Omar
05-06-1999, 04:36 PM
The Rosetta is a worthwhile improvement over an 888|24. It sound good on everything and I used it as the master clock for my PTIII, The Rosetta system sound a little more clear and realistic and seems to be pretty good, It's basically the same design as their other products, it should sound as good as the PSX-100 and run at 24bit (96k optional), The Rosetta is the same quality of electronics and converter as the PSX but doesn't have any external clocking. My ProTools clock to the Rosetta by itself but don't expect it to work while ProTools is locked to an external sync source. It is very cool for people who just use ProTools and want a converter for PT and DAT. Top quality for a very good price.

-- Baba Omar

TMS
05-06-1999, 10:53 PM
Thank you "someone you know" and Baba for your response.

Cheers
Craig

FadeMyButt
05-07-1999, 06:41 AM
I haven't used it's uv22 feature. I use maxim to digitally output my mix to dat. When I get a good external compressor, I might try using the apogee to convert the final mix after analog compression.

As far as syncing is concerned, I haven't had any problems with the rosetta because my video (internal miro dc30) and my sequencer always chase protools.

I tried the SEKD 2496s convertor and the convertors in my adat xt before I bought the apogee. I hear noticeable improvements in my final mixes, but on individual tracks it's hard to tell the convertors apart. Also, I haven't had the urge to use as many effects/eq on my tracks since I got the apogee... I guess that's good.

I bought the apogee because I only need 2 channels of high quality I/O. The 888/24 costs $3000 and has a fan that would annoy me. So I bought the apogee and the adat interface(which is pretty handy for adat submixes) and saved $1000.

Erik Huber
05-10-1999, 11:13 PM
Weighing in on the AD8000/888-24 debate...

In our rack, we have an AD8K right next to 2 888-24's... reason being that when we went to 24 tracks of I/O, we wouldn't use more than 8 channels of A/D conversion anyways (since ProTools plugs right into our O2R's most of the time). So anyway, our dealer was really cool about letting us demo the Apogee, and when we double-blinded it with the 888-24, the difference was NOT subtle... every one who works here noticed it. The Apogee sounded airier, punchier, more detailed... just better.

Worth 2x the dough? Depends on how badly you want that extra spank factor I guess... all I know is next time I buy an A/D, it'll be Apogee for sure...

Enrico Donner
05-11-1999, 01:27 AM
Coming back to the Rosetta...
...does it have the Soft Limit feature in the 8 A/D channels inputs (which I understood to be vital for the audio recording of drums and dynamic instruments)?
Thanx

05-11-1999, 04:18 AM
yes I think it has the cool soft limit function.

I was using my AD8000 on an analog 2" mix to DAT yesterday...

to DAT like this, analog desk output to input 3/4 AD8000, AES out to AES in on finalizer, AES out back to AES input ch 1/2 AD8000, + UV22, out to DAT.

On an accoustic track the Soft Limit seemed to smooth out the spikeyness of a cheap n nasty accoustic guitar I had poorly recorded! Also made ocaisional overload peaks within the Finalizer dissapear altogether. Nicer in than out!

[This message has been edited by Julian Standen (edited 05-11-99).]

Someone You Know
05-11-1999, 08:02 AM
Enrico,
I'll probably sound like a rep for Apogee, but I really can't say enough about their products. The Rosetta has their Soft Limit feature, the same A/D circuitry as the AD800 and here comes the best part...the 44.1/48k version is upgradeable to the 96k version with a software upgrade. Even the AD-8000 will need to be exchanged for that. But if you need top notch D/A too, check out their PSX-100.

Peace.

05-14-1999, 03:19 PM
Pedantic PITA question...for 8 voices to and from a sampler would uesing the ADAT card in the AD8000 have any edge over a Digidesign Adat bridge?
Any experience in this dept?

meshtheflesh
05-15-1999, 09:43 AM
As an owner of the AD 8000 , I have found the soft Limit to be fantastic, a mustt when using drums, you can meter on you desk , and not be paranoid about whats happening on you convertors. With out Soft limit a snare may only meter at -20 db Vu before peaking, its's great for those transients our tape machines used to lop off. But I also have to agree it is a bit of a pain is the ass to use. The manual is extremly poor,especially in regard to the options. I have the output board, as one should note , you can input on 8channels, and monitor, It took me a while to figure out. Although I have got it sused, When ever I am overseas, and someone else tries to use my set up, its really hard to explain to any one to get it input and out puting with is source and destination matrix. . Another thing I didn't realize untill I bought it was it only has 1 digital in, oppossed to the 8 on the 888/24, appartly you can buy yet another card.

05-20-1999, 06:11 PM
Responce to a question on Rec.Audio.Pro

"The Apogee AD8000 passes 24 bits through the lightpipe (ADAT), AES, SDIF
II, SSL HiWay, TDIF and S/PDIF.

Many devices use the ADAT and TDIF protocols, but may only use 16 or 20 of
the 24 bits this format will pass.

Hope this helps!"

Greg
Apogee Electronics, Inc.

Kenny Gioia
10-10-1999, 10:49 PM
Has anyone had the problem of AD8000 on the Rosetta or the PSX100???

Also Apogee told me that the PSX sounds even better than the AD8000

Comments

10-11-1999, 01:10 AM
Apogee keep coming up with audio updates for their units. There is a "SE" special edition upgrade for the AD8000, and news just in from AES, another upgrade to further improve sound. Some (or all?) of these are chargable, best advice is to phone Apogee and ask to speak to Adam Cohen, in sales, he will tell you the latest info on the different units.

Jules

El Guapo
10-11-1999, 09:28 AM
Just upgraded to the SE from the regular 8K. Still sounds fantastic. I'm mostly unhappy to torture that awesome 24bit sound down to 16. More bits please.

MICHAEL JACKSON
10-11-1999, 02:47 PM
I hate AD 8000 thin,cheap looking cables with XLR connectors sticking out of the unit.I think it's very unprofessional for the company like Apogee to implement this type of wireing.I mean when you pay 8000$ you want a decent converter.

Ted Rackly
10-11-1999, 03:08 PM
Is that you bubbles?

RMD
10-11-1999, 10:21 PM
I use an AD8000 to front end my PTMIX system as well as in my remote recording gear. Two B&K 4003's into my Millennia pre-amp through the AD8000 bit split to a Tascam DA38. In a good hall with an inspired performance, the results can be phenominal. It is the most transparent converter I've heard.
Tech support is great. Highly recommended.

Robert DiVito

drBill
10-12-1999, 09:26 PM
I wouldn't mind owning an AD8000 even though I find them very tedious to work on - usually because I am using them in a different way every time I use them. Front end for a DA88, Decoding bit split tracks, PT interface, etc., etc.. The user interface is less than user-friendly. I swear that the software is glitchy, but it's hard to define, because the word clocking issues often baffle me. What works on one session won't work the next day on another session at a different studio. Madingly frustrating - especially with clients haging out. If I had it permanently in a PT system and had time to work out all the little interfacing & word clock issues, it would be much easier, but alas, that is not to be.

To their credit, Apogee does have excellent tech support though.

As for their sound, I don't have ton's of experience in tracking with them, but I have mixed thru them in conjunction with 888/24's and about 50% of the time I liked the 888/24's better. It really depends on the type of music that you're doing.

Sometimes the difference was obvious, sometimes very subtle, and sometimes (dare I say it) I liked the 888/24 better. Sometimes the 888/24 is just "thicker" sounding. The AD8000 has some great "air" on it for some applications. Theoretically it would be best to have both - much like some prefer D2 over Filterbank for certain applications and vice verca. Anyway, as they say YMMV!

Cheers,

drBill

JACEK GAWLOWSKI
10-13-1999, 04:51 PM
I'm going to buy an interface soon.
Is there anyone out there who's had a chance to the a blind A/B test between AD8000 and 888/24 ?

10-14-1999, 05:00 AM
Yes, handclap and "one two" test. The dealer kept "my" test for a year or so to demo the Apogee to anyone else interested. It's my personal taste. Compairable I supose to analog multitrack comparisons. 3M Studer, Otari, Ampex, MCI. If you can, you pick what you prefer. The AD8000 is also a Swiss army knife of a unit as it does a lot of other stuff. But on the flip side I know someone p**ssed off with it's complicated modes & selling his. I have an 888/24 too BTW. Try a Deja search, search on this site.
Jules

mrbungle
07-21-2000, 12:49 AM
all i know is that we made a great sounding album on ADATS! i know, it's hard to believe, but when you go 24 bit thru the ad8k and then uv22 it down to 16, then lightpipe it into the adat, it sounds pretty damn good. the other engineer and i who track everything on a neve 8048 to studer 2 inch thought it sounded really comparable. and we aren't digital fans at all! (1/2" ampex mastering all the way!)

if you get all the bells and whistles on this thing, it'll do a great job in any setup. i like that one guy said it's a swiss army knife. so true. . .

AndiB
02-06-2001, 07:48 PM
Jules, are you running your main PT outs through the AD8000 or through digi?

P.S. Haven't stopped laughing since your post on the PC board!

Jules
02-07-2001, 04:26 AM
Hot off the press news, for about $1k you could do a lot worse than to buy a Rosendahl "Nanosyncs" word clock 'distrabution device. to clock your interfaces with. This or this might be a great leap up in quality via an 888/24 I was knocked out when I hooked up mine to an 888/24.

go bone up on word clock befor you throw out your 888/24's!!!
See the thread i just started on it, and the comments by brainier folks! http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/blush.gif
http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif
Jules



[This message has been edited by Jules (edited February 07, 2001).]

Baixo
02-07-2001, 10:07 AM
I think a lot of us are forgetting that you are hearing BOTH A/D and D/A conversion at the same time, and they aren't the same. In my experience with various converters, including the AD-8000, when comparing to a 888|24, listen to the D/A.

I find that the 888|24 has very decent A/Ds in it, but it really suffers with it's D/A. Outside of the Soft Limit feature, I don't really think Apogee has much of an edge going INTO the digital realm.

Coming out (to analog stereo bus OR individual analog channels) is where you have to have equal quality to best determine your conversion needs because this is the point that the ear (the one making the decisions) first gets to monitor what's going on.

The D/A often gets forsaken. Re-aquaint yourself with it...

BTW, those of you on the Pro-Audio list, probably read that very interesting string of posts by Bob Katz who found great audio joy (after years of clocking different ways) by clocking his entire system from the D/A converter in his chain (it was a TC M6000). An odd move, but one that proved close to ideal.

edwarden
02-07-2001, 07:27 PM
We use both AD-8000 and 888/24. What I can say is that, you first nust hvae the Master Syncs unit ( be it Nanosyncs or whichever..) to be properly connected with all the Interfaces and digital devices you plan to use. Then, the sound you can get from AD-8000 and 888/24 will be a taste issue rather than the A/B test problem. Both units can do a good job but both of them will have no dramatically help with the final mixing / mastering if you can't make good use of your plug-ins to fix/mix the sounds you recorded within your project.
I'd say that, choose the one that you can afford of to work with you. I recently received the test CD ( Vocals and Instrumentals from 3D Audio ) and I found out that, there're good sounds from cheap units. The good and bad things are more taste issue. My 2 Cents though.

adamflys
02-07-2001, 10:40 PM
we used both units in a double rack (2 each)
and the apogee was hands down the better interface for making our album. Even the rep we spoke to at DIGI said there was no comparison- if you remove the whole issue of cost the apogee is BY FAR the better converter. after a brief session with their tech support, both apogees remaind stable for the entire process

ChaplainPC
02-08-2001, 06:46 AM
Assuming then that maybe the D/A on the 888/24 are not the best would there be an advantage to monitoring the final mix out of the 888/24 via the RCA digital out into my RCA digital in on my O1V, therefore bypassing the 888's D/A's? Originally posted by Baixo:
I think a lot of us are forgetting that you are hearing BOTH A/D and D/A conversion at the same time, and they aren't the same. In my experience with various converters, including the AD-8000, when comparing to a 888|24, listen to the D/A.

I find that the 888|24 has very decent A/Ds in it, but it really suffers with it's D/A. Outside of the Soft Limit feature, I don't really think Apogee has much of an edge going INTO the digital realm.

Coming out (to analog stereo bus OR individual analog channels) is where you have to have equal quality to best determine your conversion needs because this is the point that the ear (the one making the decisions) first gets to monitor what's going on.

The D/A often gets forsaken. Re-aquaint yourself with it...

BTW, those of you on the Pro-Audio list, probably read that very interesting string of posts by Bob Katz who found great audio joy (after years of clocking different ways) by clocking his entire system from the D/A converter in his chain (it was a TC M6000). An odd move, but one that proved close to ideal.

Baixo
02-10-2001, 12:56 AM
That would assume that the 01v has better D/As, which, although I can't say, I wouldn't think there would be much difference whereas if you put an 888/24 and a DB Tech D/A in place of the Yamaha. I'm sure the Yamaha would sound different than the 888, just maybe not any better.

talco
07-13-2001, 12:05 AM
Anyone done any listening tests with the new converters from db technologies or Lucid?

wwittman
07-17-2001, 11:05 AM
The way to really KNOW if it makes a difference to you is to compare for yourself.
A-D and D-A are the whole ballgame in digital recording, really. If it doesn't sound good, then i don't CARE what a system "does" in terms of features. Know what I mean?
I've had the opportunity a few times to A-B the Apogee (both the regular and SE versions) against the 888/24.
In every case it was clear to everyone in the room.
the Apogee was light years better sounding. The 888 was harsh and 'short' sounding...no depth to the sound.
I slightly preferred the SE but not by lots.
Mike Shipley was telling me about his experience with the Mytek convertors and I'd really like to A-B them against the 8000SE.
But if I had to make a recommendation to someone setting up a new ProTools system i would STRONGLY recommmend at least one 8000.
In fact, in setting up Cyndi Lauper's home studio, we opted for an 8000SE and an 882.
The 882 was fine for synths and drum machines and sounds that didn't have better resolution ANYWAY (at lower cost than an 888) and the Apogee serves for all the 'real' instruments.
Cyndi heard the difference in her voice with the SE version so insisted on that.

hope this helps,
w2

Jules
07-17-2001, 01:06 PM
For those guys out there with 'purple envy' I reckon a Rosendahl Nanosyncs clocking a bank of 3 888/24's is an amazing investment, and for many looking for a great sound ON ALL 24 TRACKS a wiser investment than 1 x Apogee AD8k and 2 x 888/24's.

888/24's sound MUCH better externaly clocked...

Spend the rest of the money saved on a FATSO tape simulator from Impirical Labs