PDA

View Full Version : Power Mac G5 & Digidesign PCI Cards


Avid
08-04-2003, 07:02 PM
Some Digidesign PCI cards will not work in the upcoming Power Mac G5 (all G5 models).

Included among cards that will not be compatible are d24, DSP Farm, Digi 001 and Audiomedia III PCI cards.

Additional details, including a list of all incompatible Digidesign PCI cards can be found on the following web page in the Digidesign Compatibility Documents:

http://www.digidesign.com/compato/osx/g5

citi
08-04-2003, 07:17 PM
This is good news, and bad news. Since I am buying a G5 this is great that you are offereing the upgrade path. Will this be a OS wide upgrade? In other words, will PC users be able to upgrade also?

spookster
08-04-2003, 07:20 PM
What a joke! So if the thousands of people that have 001's want to get a G5, it means they have to buy more DIGI hardware. Sounds like a ploy to get us to spend money DIGI. That really sucks. It doesn't affect me, because I would never buy a G5. Who can afford one? And I don't have an 001. But I was thinking about getting an 001 to run on a PC platform.

All you 001 owners that were excited about the G5 are getting bent over and done dry! Ouch!!! That's gotta hurt. images/icons/grin.gif

citi
08-04-2003, 07:23 PM
this is NOT Digi's fault...it's apples. The system PTLE works fine with what they have. If you are getting a g5 all they are saying is that you can upgrade....probably get more for your 001 than you will on ebay and get into something new.

Don't open your mouth if you have nothing intelligent to say. If you were going to buy a 001, you still can. You just can't use it in a G5 and if you CANT AFFORD A G5. THAN THIS SHOULD NOT MATTER TO YOU.

jeronimo
08-04-2003, 07:47 PM
You know what? That SUX real bad!
I was hoping I could stay w/ my 001 and go for a G5...
Now, if we want to upgrade our computers... we have to upgrade to a new interface (FW) or to a HD rig... uhhh...
screw digi and apple...

WorldOfWiz
08-04-2003, 09:18 PM
spookster:

As a 001 owner. I'm not mad at Digi or Apple at all. It's called progress.

Wiz

digiengineer
08-04-2003, 09:29 PM
I can't believe Digi won't support my PT III NuBus system on G5's! I spent a lot of money, I demand NuBus support NOW!!!! images/icons/grin.gif

dkrz
08-05-2003, 02:45 AM
As a 001 owner. I'm not mad at Digi or Apple at all. It's called progress. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly how I feel. I'm not even upset that my Dual 1.25 which I paid 2200 bucks for in February is now only 1600 bucks... (well maybe just a little images/icons/wink.gif ) It's the way things go with technology. You can be pretty sure that whatever you buy now will be old technology in about 6 months. Including the current G5's for that matter as soon as the next generation of G5's are rolled out. On and on it goes.

dk

audiobob
08-05-2003, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by spookster:
It doesn't affect me, because I would never buy a G5. Who can afford one? And I don't have an 001. images/icons/grin.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So why do you speak?

As far as who can afford one, our dual G4 500's were $3499. A dual 2gig is at $2999. Sounds like a $500 price drop for a machine that's at least 3 times faster....and much more affordable.

Castaliamusic
08-05-2003, 04:27 AM
As a 001 owner. I'm not mad at Digi or Apple at all. It's called progress. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well, it's 1% progress and 99% marketing.

However there's a big difference between digi and apple:

001 42 months
any apple computer 6 months (and cost 3 times...)

...and a lot of pain to have the right update images/icons/rolleyes.gif

GORILLA
08-05-2003, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by alucard:
our dual G4 500's were $3499. A dual 2gig is at $2999. Sounds like a $500 price drop for a machine that's at least 3 times faster....and much more affordable. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh so true!!!! images/icons/wink.gif
My G4/400 was like $1900 brand new (with extra memoery sticks) in it's "Hey Day".

The WORD for today is -TECHNOLOGY-.....
keep up with it...
or get left behind!
THE CHOICE IS YOURS! images/icons/wink.gif

vinylist
08-05-2003, 05:16 AM
I wonder if there will be a new 001 that is compatible with the G5 and if we'll be allowed to exchange our old 001 card for the new one at a discounted price, or if we'll be forced into Firewire 002?

kmshroom
08-05-2003, 05:58 AM
if you actually went to the link on Digi's original post for this topic thread, you'd realize the upgrade path is to the 002's.

...if you still haven't realized...

no, they are not remaking the 001's PCI card.

Lowfreq
08-05-2003, 08:15 AM
At the end of the G5 campatibilty page Digig states they will be taking MBox, 001, & AMIII systems in trade for 002 systems. Pricing isn't set yet. But this isn't just Apple's ordeal either. Intel is pushing their PCI Express interfaces for their next generation (IA64-3, & probably Prescott chips) motherboards so the death of 001 & AMIII systems was inevitable.

gracejames
08-05-2003, 08:33 AM
This isn't anything new for PT users if
they've been around since PT III let's say.
Its unfortunate that you'll have to upgrade everything and shell out. I kind of expect that
kind of thing with PT history. I think its cool though that we can upgrade 001 to 002 now. The 002 will be compatible with G5 (or keep the G4) so i would upgrade the 001 to 002. Seems like the thing to do with better converters, 96K, etc. That way you won't have to ditch your Mac.

--james

steins
08-05-2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by spookster:
Sounds like a ploy to get us to spend money DIGI.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I shouldn't really be commenting on this childish post, but I can't help it. Spookster: How many companies besides Digi let's you trade in your HARDWARE when it gets obsolete????? MOTU? Emagic? Apple? Anyone? Try to go to your computer dealer and ask of you can trade your 3-year old SoundBlaster64XSMegaWattCostMeAFortuneBackThenGiga Card for a new 5.1 surround-capable whiz-bang card, at a resonable price. You'd be laughed out of the store.

Hardware Exchange is a welcome option, not a ploy to get your money.

Just my opinion.

Stein Tore

NannerPuddin'
08-05-2003, 09:22 AM
Yep,upgrade to 002. Fair enough. I wish I had waited to upgrade to PT 6.1. Could've saved $75!

NP

Lucky
08-05-2003, 10:19 AM
Do you think Apple changed their PCI structure so third party companies can make money? I am buying a G5 and I have already moved up to an 002R. I have to exchange my Igniter video card and my 7 slot expansion chassis will not work on the new computer. I weighed these factors and decided that the G5 pluses out weighed the minuses. That is my decision. You can keep your computers that currently support your PCI cards and all is well. The software is still compatible. Stick with what you have until you decide that you need to change. I am changing and I'm not pissed at Digi, Apple, Aurora or Magma. Such is progress.

I remember contemplating if I really needed the 40 MB hard drive on the Apple Classic when my Apple 512Ke worked just fine. It is amazing how time can change our opinions (now I have more than 2 TBs of storage).

s2n
08-05-2003, 12:05 PM
Do you people remember NuBus? images/icons/smile.gif

cwhite771
08-05-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Lucky:
Do you think Apple changed their PCI structure so third party companies can make money?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Technology evolves. As technology evolves, new standards emerge. PCI-X is a new standard. As mentioned previously on this thread, PC's will be using it too. I don't think that companies implement things so third party developers can cash in. So that they can cash in, maybe.

Trying to implement something that is not a "standard" (meaning that it's adopted industry wide) is pretty risky (think Betamax-- which Sony didn't want to license and VHS then killed it). Standards usually involve groups of companies which try to get their version to the market as the standard, but others groups push theirs as well (this has been the holdup with consumer DVD recorders for the past few years).

All of the technology in the new generation machines is based on improved technologies (or at least the best available while maintaing a consumer price point) which provide much higher performance. If all of the sums of the whole are not running at the same level of performance (or near), there will be bottlenecks in the architecture that slow things down and not allow it to perform to its potential.

Is it a way to make money? Sure it is, because as consumers we always want better, faster, and "cooler". So who can blame them as long as they can keep making things better, faster, and "cooler"..

For the G5, I'll wait for the second round, which from Apple history, will likely show up in the winter or spring sometime. Of course, they'll be better, faster, and cheaper.

Oh yeah... and props to Digi for the exchange opportunity... I think steins summed it up pretty well for those that seem to be upset by the whole thing.

I simply can't believe all of the conspiracy theories that constantly bounce around this board everytime something changes... It would be great if they could just give everything away, but LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, DIGI IS A BUSINESS AND AS A BUSINESS, THEY NEED TO MAKE MONEY. IF THEY MAKE NO MONEY, THEY CEASE TO EXIST.

Why is that so difficult to grasp?

spookster
08-05-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by citi:
this is NOT Digi's fault...it's apples. The system PTLE works fine with what they have. If you are getting a g5 all they are saying is that you can upgrade....probably get more for your 001 than you will on ebay and get into something new.

Don't open your mouth if you have nothing intelligent to say. If you were going to buy a 001, you still can. You just can't use it in a G5 and if you CANT AFFORD A G5. THAN THIS SHOULD NOT MATTER TO YOU. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, I'll open my mouth whenever I damn well please! So lets get that straight right now. That was my whole point, you can't use it in a G5. So lick me citi. Don't ever tell me what to do! Not everybody is rich, so don't talk down to me just because I can't afford a G5. I just think it sucks that you can't use the 001 with a G5. I'm sure a lot of other people agree with me. I was thinking about getting an 001, and maybe someday when the prices come down, getting a G5. But now I seriously doubt that will happen.

spookster
08-05-2003, 01:59 PM
So do we have to show proof of purchase of a G5 before DIGI will take our 001's/M-boxes on trade or can I just go down to my local dealer and say, "I wan't to trade my M-box in for an 002 and pay the difference?" Very good question, because I wouldn't mind knocking a few hundred dollars off the price of an 002R. That would rule. Sorry to all for my original post in this thread. I mis-understood the fact that we could trade in our hardware to upgrade.

Citi, you can still lick me!! images/icons/tongue.gif

citi
08-05-2003, 02:19 PM
First of all, I'll open my mouth whenever I damn well please! <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's obvious that your brain and your mouth have no relationship so I am not suprised.

So lick me citi. Don't ever tell me what to do! <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Proved my point again.

Not everybody is rich, so don't talk down to me just because I can't afford a G5. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't talk down to you because you couldn't afford it...i said it because...let me see...oh here it is.

That really sucks. It doesn't affect me, because I would never buy a G5. Who can afford one? And I don't have an 001. But I was thinking about getting an 001 to run on a PC platform.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again proving my point

I just think it sucks that you can't use the 001 with a G5. I'm sure a lot of other people agree with me. I was thinking about getting an 001, and maybe someday when the prices come down, getting a G5. But now I seriously doubt that will happen.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are contradicting yourself, again...don't back up now...stand by your ignorance!

MidnightFlyer
08-05-2003, 03:28 PM
We'll know Thursday how much the upgrade from 001 to 002 will cost. Any guesses how much?

citi
08-05-2003, 03:39 PM
The problem is...the 002 and 002r sell for less than what Digi says is retail. I am curious to see how they price it.

Castaliamusic
08-05-2003, 05:01 PM
Stick with what you have until you decide that you need to change. I am changing and I'm not pissed at Digi, Apple, Aurora or Magma. Such is progress. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, right. I'm not changing my setup. I'm happy with what I have (and, unfortunately, I can't afford a new system right now). May I expose 3 considerations (opinions)?

1. Maybe someone using 001 already reserved a new, incredible, light fast G5. Digi's statement about incompatibility comes a bit late (about 40 days)

2. I always used Apple computers, and love them. Never used a PC (...well, I owned an Atari, my first computer). Now, Apple is making A LOT OF MONEY with iPod, Music store and so on. Transition to X is still painful for many users. Do you think we need computers 2 times faster to have the same power? What about double processor? In many cases the second processor started to work after 3 years (some months ago for PT users). I think Apple was a better company in the past (just my opinion, obviously)

3. I repeat myself: what you call progress is 1% REAL progress and 99% marketing

Ok, let me expose the last opinion: I use my system to make music, I'm quiet happy with what I have. Thanks Digi for that little blue box, the true revolution started some years ago

P.S. Sorry for my bad English, I'm learning it images/icons/blush.gif

spookster
08-05-2003, 06:37 PM
You really are an a-hole aren't you citi.

You don't even know me and your calling me ignorant for one measley little post on the DUC. Sounds like you have some anger issues. You just want to be "right". You don't care if it hurts someones feelings or who's toes you've got to step on along the way. Might get you far in the business, but you'll still be an angry unhappy person. If you've gotta make me look foolish to make yourself feel better, then so-be-it. Yes, there were some contradictions in my post; get over it! My original post on this thread was written in haste and I was irritated by the issue. But I certainly didn't feel the need to attack anyone personally. You're starting to sound like Slim. Maybe you two could get together and think of ways to piss people off. Between the two of you, I'm sure you could piss off the whole DUC.

Avid
08-05-2003, 06:48 PM
Take it easy, I'd hate to have to lock an announcement thread. images/icons/rolleyes.gif
As far as details on the hardware exchanges, it clearly says that those will be available later this week. Step away from the Red Bull and slow down. images/icons/cool.gif

Slim Shady
08-05-2003, 07:09 PM
But I certainly didn't feel the need to attack anyone personally. You're starting to sound like Slim. Maybe you two could get together and think of ways to piss people off. Between the two of you, I'm sure you could piss off the whole DUC.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, you're not making many friends yourself dude. And once again you directly contradict yourself in 2 consecutive sentences. I checked all posts with your member number and I don't see any instances of me getting into it with you - and the only I time I really do that is when someone doesn't follow the rules of the DUC. If I pissed you off, I apologize, but damn, take a couple deep breaths and re-read your posts - you're not coming off too calm and collected yourself. Peace.

WorldOfWiz
08-05-2003, 10:08 PM
Ok I haven't even upgraded to Mac OS X yet. Why? Because I don't need to yet.

Apple is always ahead of the pack. But a Mac does run for a long time. My 001 runs on a 9600. I guess its time for me to buy another computer.

Well Not just yet. I still don't need to.

Wiz

rockridge
08-05-2003, 11:23 PM
Hey... take it easy on Spooky... if we don't rattle the cage we'll all get locked it.

Should we complain for having to upgrade... well, i don't cause i won't upgrade till i have to, but why should we tow the company line just because some think they might be accepted as a beta tester and get their systems for free.

Never feel sorry for any company taking your money... they're getting the better end of the deal.

It's business... they don't care unless you pay and even then it a struggle.

steins
08-05-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by spookster:
Sounds like a ploy to get us to spend money DIGI.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I shouldn't really be commenting on this childish post, but I can't help it. Spookster: How many companies besides Digi let's you trade in your HARDWARE when it gets obsolete????? MOTU? Emagic? Apple? Anyone? Try to go to your computer dealer and ask of you can trade your 3-year old SoundBlaster64XSMegaWattCostMeAFortuneBackThenGiga Card for a new 5.1 surround-capable whiz-bang card, at a resonable price. You'd be laughed out of the store.

Hardware Exchange is a welcome option, not a ploy to get your money.

Just my opinion.

Stein Tore

silverlode
08-05-2003, 11:38 PM
The fact that PCI-X doesn't support SOME older PCI cards is not Apple's fault. The specification has limitations, and also enhancements. No reason to be pissed at Apple. If you're so opposed to the idea, stay with a G4 machine...they still have a lot of life in them.

OMG! Apple dropped NuBus
OMG! Apple dropped SCSI
etc....

And it's very classy of Digi to even offer us an upgrade path...they certainly don't have to.

Eventually, though, even Firewire will be obsolete.

mike connelly
08-06-2003, 07:42 AM
"Maybe someone using 001 already reserved a new, incredible, light fast G5. Digi's statement about incompatibility comes a bit late"

The G5's aren't shipping for a few weeks, I doubt it's too late to cancel an order. Plus it's not wise to order a new machine before finding out if your hardware and software are compatible.

spookster
08-06-2003, 07:47 AM
How did I contradict myself again? Because I didn't put up with citi attacking me all because of one comment? As for you attacking me personally. You haven't Slim. But I rarely see a post of yours that isn't in someway "aggressive". You can give people info without being mean. I'm only mean when provoked. Like when citi provoked me. Can't I call a spade a spade? If you don't want to be called a spade, than don't be mean to people. I only felt the need to call citi a name after he was nasty to me. That was the only mean thing I said, and for good reason. And don't let my profile fool you slim. I've been using the DUC a lot longer than you might think, just under a different name.

audioeric
08-06-2003, 07:57 AM
Welcome Back to 3rd Grade Everyone images/icons/rolleyes.gif

eric

Slim Shady
08-06-2003, 08:18 AM
How did I contradict myself again? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By saying "I certainly didn't feel the need to attack anyone personally." then attacking ME personally by saying "You're starting to sound like Slim. Maybe you two could get together and think of ways to piss people off.", when I had nothing to do with this thread.

Well, it's become obvious to me know that you are just a troll looking to pick fights on the DUC, and several other users seem to agree. I'll oblige only by defending my own name and trying to sedate your unfounded anger. I stand by all my words, and while you are free to judge me any way you wish in your own twisted mind, it doesn't bother me, and if you look through my 1300+ posts, you'll be hard pressed to find any that are actually 'mean'. No-one else has ever had a problem with me, so perhaps this is just a matter of context and the state of mind you're in when you're browsing the DUC. Judging by your posts in this thread, you're a very angry person, but then again, it could all be context - but anyone who uses the phrase "getting bent over and done dry!" doesn't earn my respect any day, any time, any context. You have to admit your first post is pretty raunchy and the attitude contained therein is uncalled for, and I can't fault citi for his reaction. You're only doing yourself and your credibility further disservice by continuing to react like a child with every post you make - time to move on to better, less angry threads.

citi
08-06-2003, 08:32 AM
Ok Spookster...it wasn't just one comment...but, let's just drop the whole thing. I apologize for the comment I made in regards to your opening post. I might have been a little too "agressive".

However you did find it important to go after me even though I was not the only one to jump on you. That's neither here nor there. And when you say things like getting bent over and done dry, well..you are asking for someone to defend themselves. Like myself. But, once again I apologize for the comment made.

BTW...if you are old school, then why don't you just tell us who you are? or used to be.

bassbuddy
08-06-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by MidnightFlyer:
We'll know Thursday how much the upgrade from 001 to 002 will cost. Any guesses how much? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK Midnight, I am going to make a liberal guess that Digidesign will knock off $300.00 on the 001 > 002 hardware exchange, meaning that we will be able to walk paying $900.00 for the 002r.

I was 1st going to say $400.00, but I think I'm dreaming on that one.....anyone else?

Kenny

Lucky
08-06-2003, 01:39 PM
Please people, the "low end" G5 still has the old PCI bus. It is much faster than any other single processor Mac and will work with the 001. The 2 "higher end" G5s have the new PCIX slot and NO older PCI cards will work in the PCIX slot. There is an extra slat in the PCIX slot so nobody will make the mistake of installing on old PCI card in the new slot and blow the card and the bus. There are two openings in the PCIX card that must line up. It isn't just SOME older cards that won't work, it is all of them (seems there is some confusion).

So it is possible, at least for a limited time, to pick up a G5 that will work with the 001.

Slim Shady
08-06-2003, 02:04 PM
Unfortunately that's not true Lucky. This is from Digi's G5 compatibility page ( http://www.digidesign.com/compato/osx/g5/ )

"Apple's new Power Mac G5 computers include a technical change to PCI card support which renders some Digidesign PCI cards incompatible.

The G5's PCI slots accomodate 3.3 volt-powered PCI cards only, compared to the G4's PCI slots which supported mixed voltage cards (5.0 V, 12 V, or 3.3 V). While some of Digidesign's PCI cards are compatible with both 5.0 V or 3.3 V PCI slots, others require 5.0 V-capable PCI slots and will be physically incompatible with Apple's new Power Mac G5.

Note that while the G5 1.8 GHz and dual 2.0 GHz models have PCI-X slots, and the G5 1.6 GHz model has PCI (and not PCI-X) slots, all Power Mac G5s support 3.3 V PCI cards only. ... In addition to incorrect voltage, 5.0 volt PCI cards will not fit in the PCI slots on any G5 models. The affected Digidesign PCI cards are as follows:

Digi 001 .... Audiomedia III (Toolbox) etc." <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So basically the digi001 is not supported in any model G5, even the lower end models.

RUNRUN
08-06-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by spookster:
I'm sorry too Citi. The whole thing was really stupid now that I think about it. I'm not really old school. I made about 160 posts as ghostman420. I changed my screen name because I'm not into the 420 anymore. I think part of my attitude is due to the detoxification process. I got some literature on it. Most people might have one or two of the side effects; whereas I have every single one of them. I've got kids and I can't tell them not to do it if I'm doing it myself. Besides, think of how much nice equipment I could be buying with all that money, instead of it just going up in smoke.

Sorry again Citi, I'll be nice now. images/icons/smile.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005740

Castaliamusic
08-06-2003, 05:16 PM
420? images/icons/confused.gif

I feel that I can't find the meaning in an Engli[bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep]alian dictionary....

Doc
08-06-2003, 06:45 PM
I'm still trying to get hold of a service manual for my Digi001. If I can get one, perhaps the 001 PCI card could be modded to run in the PCI slot in the entry level G5.

My thinking is that hopefully the only difference (incompatability wise) is the 3.3 volt power on the new (entry level) Mac's PCI slot. If that is the case, a 5 volt supply could be made and the 001 card modded to run on that rather than the PCI bus supply. This would probably involve either cutting the supply track on the 001 card and hard wiring it to the custom 5 volt supply or (if you don't mind forfeiting the warranty on your brand new G5 images/icons/shocked.gif ), cutting the supply track on the G5's motherboard and connecting the 5 volt supply to that.
The latter would make it much easier to remove the PCI card if necessary and would probably make the PCI slot compliant with other older PCI cards.

Hopefully the specs for the new entry level G5's PCI slot are available. That way it can be compared to the current 5 volt PCI slots.
I have a feeling getting this info may be a bit like extracting teeth. We are talking about Apple here but you never know. images/icons/wink.gif

Doc
08-06-2003, 07:04 PM
Ooops images/icons/blush.gif . I just read this from Digi:
... In addition to incorrect voltage, 5.0 volt PCI cards will not fit in the PCI slots on any G5 models. The affected Digidesign PCI cards are as follows:

Digi 001 .... Audiomedia III (Toolbox) etc <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess that throws my theory out the window. Looks like I'll be using my G4 for a while yet. At least until I need and can afford a G5 and HD.

spookster
08-06-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by RUNRUN:
http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005740 [/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are getting at Run?

KamaSutra77
08-06-2003, 07:37 PM
Um... how about the mod where you get a G5 and a new interface. Seems much simpler. when you consider the cost/advantages/future value equation.

I wonder if a 3.3 volt mod could work? My vague clue about electronics suggetsthat all the components ona card work together and altering the voltage here might effect the Speed or the clock cycle.

If it could be confirmed that the 3.3 voltage (dont forget amplitude) is all that stands in the way of Digi001 on a G5, a jumper card with a few resister, etc. Seems feasible.
Theres a market, simple plastic jumper cards for the 001.

Lets say there 600,000 001's on the market.
and .05 of those people will upgrade to G5's and want to keep the 001 within the next year.

Where assuming that these folks, who can afford a G5 with all the trimmings for DAW work, couldnt muster up another $1295 for a new interface. In other words, anyone who can justify the G5 purchase soon, probably isnt strapped for cash. The performance is great, but its not a brick wall difference.


So 12,000 (factor that by whatever the true numbers are) folks want this riser card. The price $135 each, street price is 103.75

Pssible gross $162,000
Likely: $124,5000

You could R&D such a card for an estimated: 10,00, then theres the molds, set up and manufacturing, assembly, and packaging - a good 22,000.

Advertising: $2,500-$16,000

Shipping: per unit: say $1.50

$1,195,000

From which business expenses & taxes would come.

This value would appreciate as more users switched, and upgraded.

How many oo1's are out there?


OH wait, I feel some algebra comming on.

If you where to conlcude that 12% of the user base would upgrade over the courese of the next 5 years given that the depreciated value of the hardware would.....

2nd oh wait!! Must account for the windows user base and the TDm market... Arrggghh!

Waste of time

Enjoy,

Doc
08-06-2003, 07:45 PM
Still wondering.....

If the 3.3 volt PCI cards (ie, HD etc.) work in either the 3.3 volt or 5 volt PCI slots, why not physically the other way round? Is it something like ATA66 vs ATA33 cables where the ATA33 cables will fit in either bus but the ATA66 cables will only fit into an ATA66 bus (there is an extra pin on the ATA33 bus)?
If this is the case then perhaps there is still the possibility of doing a slightly more involved mod.

Doc
08-06-2003, 08:00 PM
Kama,

Looks like we posted at the same time. My post took ages to get through.
I'm guessing there are many others like myself who are quite happy with their 001's but would like a faster Mac.
For me it's a case of weighing up whether to buy a CPU upgrade for my G4 (comparatively expensive here in Aus) or just put the money into an even faster G5.
As I've already mentioned, I'm quite happy to stay with my 001 until I purchase a HD system. Given that, a new G5 makes sense provided I can get my 001 working on it. I already know HD will work on G5 and who knows, by the time I'm looking into HD there could be a new HD card which will only work with a G5 (remember NuBus? pure speculation here).

WorldOfWiz
08-06-2003, 11:04 PM
So does that mean for now on the PTLE market will be usb or firewire?
The 002 and 002r still scare me with all of the problems.

Would it be that hard for Digi to have a card that will work with a PCI-X. Or is a 003 coming?

Wiz

Doc
08-06-2003, 11:21 PM
Firewire in general is a bit of a worry IMHO. Considering the number of problems I've seen with the Firewire (as a qualified electronics tech.) I'm a little nervous about anything Firewire.
Yet another reason I'll probably keep my 001 until I go HD.

spookster
08-06-2003, 11:31 PM
I'm sorry too Citi. The whole thing was really stupid now that I think about it. I'm not really old school. I made about 160 posts as ghostman420. I changed my screen name because I'm not into the 420 anymore. I think part of my attitude is due to the detoxification process. I got some literature on it. Most people might have one or two of the side effects; whereas I have every single one of them. I've got kids and I can't tell them not to do it if I'm doing it myself. Besides, think of how much nice equipment I could be buying with all that money, instead of it just going up in smoke.

Sorry again Citi, I'll be nice now. images/icons/smile.gif

spookster
08-06-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Slim Shady:
[QUOTE]
if you look through my 1300+ posts, you'll be hard pressed to find any that are actually 'mean'

Well, it's become obvious to me know that you are just a troll...in your own twisted mind... continuing to react like a child with every post you make...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Turns out I didn't have to look very far Slim

I'm not trying to pick fights Slim. I've just noticed a lot of your posts are a bit agressive. And the proof lies above. While you were explaining that your posts weren't mean, you were writing mean things. If calling me a Troll and a child, and saying I have a twisted mind isn't mean; then I don't know what is.

Slim Shady
08-06-2003, 11:50 PM
images/icons/rolleyes.gif ok dude, you're hopeless. I picked my words carefully, and I don't think anything I compared you too in that post was unwarranted given what you were dishing out. It's pretty hypocritical of you to rip into people the way you were, then turn around and cry about people being mean to you. Remember, YOU brought my name into this... No-one else seems to find me "aggressive", but I can deal with you having some wierd issue with me - all I have to do is look back at the hundreds of folks that I have helped over the years to know that I am a positive contributer here, I don't need your validation, and your lack thereof doesn't make me bad person.

I can't believe I let you sucker me into one of these pointless arguments, making me do the one thing I hate on the DUC - eating up space with off topic discussions. I guess that's what being home sick with the flu gets me. My apologies to anyone sifting through this thread looking for any relevant information - hopefully you found all you need by this time.

Chris, I wish you the best and hope that your future brings you better things.

KamaSutra77
08-06-2003, 11:59 PM
It does kinda suck that 001 cards wont work in the new G5. For me that means a G5 purchase is going to be put off for a while. Especially considering the reliability issues represented here on the DUC regarding the oo2, and oo2r.
This isnt a poor mans hobby. Realistically, who really needs a G5 and a interface with all the bells and witneses? Perhaps only those who actuall make money doing this work?

The G5 is great, accolades to apple for raising the bar. Unfortunatly it is too little too late.

Too bad all that raw power wont affect DAW users much for at least a couple of years.

To those freaking out over the news, relax, it really isnt that big of a deal.

I doubt the trade in deal will be a good deal, but a simple path to compatability. But hey, Surprise us.

ste72
08-07-2003, 05:21 AM
i think the only (good) reason to upgrade to 002r is to have better converters and G5 compatibility.

Firewire interfaces have much higher latencies than PCI cards. That's a fact.

Anyway i was planning to take a G5, so perhaps i'll do the upgrade. Does the upgrade will apply to Audiomedia3 too (old card? Also without the toolbox (or protools software) but with the old session software ?i am using A3 in my PC now using ASIO drivers only.

I think i will keep my good old digi001 for my PC too, if the upgrade from old audiomedia3 is possible(without toolbox xp).

Ste

Thresholdproductions
08-07-2003, 10:48 AM
Well quite honestly this pisses me right off. I haven't had my 001 for more than a year and now it's obsolete. When looking at apple's specs for their pci slots...they said they are all backwards compatible...meaning they should work with the 001.

Now there are three possibilities. 1), They won't work. 2) They will work and Digi says they won't so you'll buy an upgrade and give them yet another 800$ so you can use their program with ONLY their hardware. 3) It's been a misunderstanding cause no one has tested this yet.

From the info I've been presented it seems to me like #2. Apple said in their keynote speech that the PCI slots would be backwards compatible and also in they there long PDF spec about the G5. Digi only lists what they think won't be compatible. How many times did they say brandnew G4s weren't compatible with protools or that the new version of osx wasn't compatible only to be wrong when people actually got their hands on them and tested themselves. Smells like marketing to me.

I'm getting more than a little frustrated with Digi. There 6.x le versions sucks. It crashes non-stop. (trashing prefs and ... lah lah lah). This may be the point where I simply abandon PT altogether. It's not like the core audio driver even works either...another argument altogether about competition vs. compatibilty.

The metric Halo portable I/o looks more and more like the card to get. word clock, AES/EBU, mic pres, and fully portable. And maybe I'll saty with Digi with there little blue dongle for their program..the M-box.

ProdInfo
08-07-2003, 12:22 PM
Hi Threshold,

I can understand your disappointment, but the Digi 001 will not work and cannot be physically installed in the Power Mac G5.

Because the G5 only supports 3.3 V-capable cards (the Digi 001 PCI card is 5.0 V), there is a barrier in its' PCI slots that prevent you from even attempting to install a card that is keyed (by a notch in the card) for a different voltage.

WorldOfWiz
08-07-2003, 04:34 PM
So maybe Digi should come out with 002 and 002r with Firewire 2.

Wiz

cl516
08-07-2003, 05:56 PM
this sucks.
the upgrade price also made me laugh. like they're doing me a favour.

i've been using Logic instead of ptLE for the past 2 months, no complaints, so i can't see myself switching back for now... and when it's time to get a new computer G5, i have to replace it with an 002r?
is it better than the 828mkII?

well it looks like either Apple or Digidesign is going to lose my business, and i can't imagine myself switching back to a PC....

D. Weeb
08-07-2003, 07:08 PM
Digi's only going to give you something like $500 to $900 for your Digi 001, compared to...

I forget. Tell us again how much Apple is going to give you for your old computer in exchange for a G5?

Doc
08-07-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by ProdInfo:
.....Because the G5 only supports 3.3 V-capable cards (the Digi 001 PCI card is 5.0 V), there is a barrier in its' PCI slots that prevent you from even attempting to install a card that is keyed (by a notch in the card) for a different voltage. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's exactly what I was hoping for images/icons/smile.gif . Possibly just a matter of making a notch in the 001 card and modding the PCI supply to it.
Sounds like my mod may be feasible after all images/icons/cool.gif .

Targon
08-08-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by D. Weeb:
Digi's only going to give you something like $500 to $900 for your Digi 001, compared to...

I forget. Tell us again how much Apple is going to give you for your old computer in exchange for a G5? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't Apple recently replace MDD Logic boards when they were found to be incompatible with the 001? Didn't Apple also offer a Power Supply noise reduction upgrade kit?

Im still not sure, but i think i smell a rat. Why has this only JUST been recently discovered? Apple have apparently been working on the G5 CPU for 2 years they say. PCI-X has been around for that long as well. It is extremely likely Apple have had prototype hardware based on PCI-X and G5 CPU's for at least 8 months. Digidesign are CLOSE dev partners with Apple or so the marketing has us to believe, thus im convinced Digi have been provided with Apple G5 proto's for testing at least 6 months ago. Wouldn't Digi have told Apple their Cards don't work in the G5's?? I bet they did and Apple is trying to to force ppl into Firewire at the same time Digi benefits from more revenue from the exchange program. Im sure the 002 costs Digi very little, its made in China afterall.

I think there are some dodgy games going on between these 2 companies.

We are getting forced into broken, incomplete OS X Digi software by means of disabling hardware functionality with Apple's new machines. Im really not sure what to make of all these thoughts. But im beginning to have some serious feelings of distrust for Digi. The Core Audio driver fiasco has prompted this (oh yeah i have had several posts deleted regarding that matter).

I have my reservations about Firewire also, in my experience it has been quite flakey and i haven't even a FW audio interface. The extra latency is a concern :-(

Maybe Emagic are going to announce an new killer hardware interface...who knows.

Although its very possible the entire situation here is completely genuine an Digi feel they have been forced between a rock and a hard place.

Either way the only way they can get blood out of a stone is by putting a leach on my balls images/icons/grin.gif

guitates
08-08-2003, 08:16 AM
Dannii...

There is No way that the PCI SIZE will be any different Physically, because the Radeon 9800 is the Video card, and it fits in ALL Mac PCI slots.

Someone tell me if I am wrong, but Radeon is not Modifying the size of their cards. They are all the same size.

Digi said that the main issue is the Keying of the cards for 3.3 volts, NOT that the size will be any different.

This would be Suiside for Apple, to modify the size of the PCI slots.

Think about all the existing cards that would Not be available for the G5's, Like the Video cards, if Apple cahnged the actual PCI slot size. images/icons/cool.gif

s2n
08-08-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Doc:
That's exactly what I was hoping for images/icons/smile.gif . Possibly just a matter of making a notch in the 001 card and modding the PCI supply to it.
Sounds like my mod may be feasible after all images/icons/cool.gif . <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah...risk frying your $1000 G5 motherboard to get a $100 PCI card working. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Lucky
08-08-2003, 09:04 AM
Radeon 9800 is an AGP card. It is not a PCI card. Go search ATI's and Nvidia's site. Their old PCI video cards (if you can find them) will not work in a PCIX slot. There is a huge difference between PCI and AGP. There is no way the two could ever be confused. AGP cards will never fit in any PCI slot and PCI cards will never fit in an AGP slot. Even PCIX is incredibly slow compared to AGP, especially the 8X AGP slot that the Radeon 9800 Pro needs.

Lucky
08-08-2003, 09:24 AM
The PCI slots ARE different. Old cards WILL NOT fit into the new slots!!!! Why is that so hard to understand? It is a necessary move by Apple and, trust me, PC's will be switching over very soon. It is called progress. If you are worried, don't get a G5. There are still people out there with Pro Tools III Nubus systems that work fine. You are not required to dump the 001 until YOU decide to get a new computer. They are not forcing this on you. Stick with your system until you need to dump it. No problem. The 001 cards will still keep working even after the G5s, and probably G6s get released.

And yes, I need to upgrade my video (Aurora Igniter) my PCI chassis (Magma) and my SCSI cards (Adaptec) because they won't work in the new G5s. I already sold my 001 on eBay and got my 002R. I've decided to be an early adopter (read beta tester) on these new systems because they have a lot to offer and I happen to have some extra cash (rare occurance). If I didn't have the cash I would be very happy with my 001 on my 733.

Thresholdproductions
08-08-2003, 02:21 PM
Why doens't Digi make some kind of MOD that goes between the 001 and the new G5 PCI X slot instead of trying to get another 800$ out of us. I need a new computer badly..but its not only for audio and not only for protools. I do video editing as well so the speed of the G5 is a godsend compared to trying to edit on a G4 350. To me, it's preaty lame that something they just released 2 yrs ago is no longer viable for the new computer line. Fire wire was around when the 001 came out. I was wondering myself why it didn't have fire wire on it. So now it becomes clear. Money and marketing. If dig really cared about customer satisfaction they would devlope something to go inbetween the 001 and the PCI X slot...not create an obsolete sound card that is not more than 2 yrs old. And if you don't like the sound of that...then they should have made a sound card that has a longer shelf life than two yrs. I'm not going to fall for this marketing trap. I'm sick of the way Digi and Avid work.

And here's why it's going down like this. They are pissed off that now, people can create the same results with out an avid/digi propriatary systems that controled the whole market. You can make the same music easier with any sound card of your choice with logic, cubase, nuendo etc. You can make the same videos using final cut and premiere instead of some silly $50 000 avid work station. Who really needs to spend $15 000 on an HD system...really. They are losing their market share big time, PT 6 for osx sucks..the core audio sucks..people are getting pissed off. Os9 is dead..so what options do we have as cunsumers of their product? Not much..thus they are losing out even more. The giant has stumbled and is beginning it's long crash down.

Now you are telling me after only 2 yrs of owning one of their products..that if i Want to get a new comouter to run the same crappy program I'm running right now I have to fork out 800$ U.S. Forget it. That's It. I've been using logic for the past 4 months ( mind you, w/ the flakey core audio driver) and it rocks over PT and at least they aren't screwing me!!! So forget it. I'm not gonna fork out $800 to keep playing the digi game.

If PT 6 rocked and was stable and didn't quite every two hours for no reason..then maybe..but hell...they aren't giving you much reason to desire to keep on going with protools.

Sorry for the rant..but us consumers need to voice our dissant about these blasted corporations screwing us at every corner..apple included.

Henry Lee
08-08-2003, 02:54 PM
"but us consumers need to voice our dissant about these blasted corporations screwing us at every corner..apple included."

um. there's quite a bit of irony in that statement. yes, you're right - you're a consumer. it is your duty as a consumer to consume. that is the objective of capitalism. to produce and consume, a repetitive cycle that will never end until we all burn out and die.

close your eyes, breathe deeply and create. that's what you're here for. they are only tools. relax, enjoy what you have. something that many, many other people in the world will never be able to experience.

henry lee

froyo
08-08-2003, 02:55 PM
Hello. Thresholdproductions in your frustration you have misinterpreted or misunderstood some of the facts. The Digi 001 was unveiled in fall '99. So it is close to 4 years old now. At the time they developed and brought it to market, there was virtually nobody with Firewire on any hardware. None at all. That would show up a year or two later. If dig really cared about customer satisfaction they would devlope something to go inbetween the 001 and the PCI X slot...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you are saying they should support the 001 forever? Or just for the next two years or so? At what point do you just say goodbye to old technology and embrace new? Remember Nubus? They are pissed off that now, people can create the same results with out an avid/digi propriatary systems that controled the whole market...They are losing their market share big time, PT 6 for osx sucks..the core audio sucks..people are getting pissed off... The giant has stumbled and is beginning it's long crash down.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well people have been complaining about this to Digidesign since day one. Specially in the native market, but in their products overall. Their proprietary policy has frustrated just about everybody at one time or another. I don't know what world you live in or work in, but Digidesign is by far the industry leader in Post, almost to the point of being exclusive. In music major studios it is just as ubiquitous as a 2" machine. In short, Digidesign today is as strong as it has ever been. Maybe the strongest it has ever been or ever will be. So I don't know where you get this idea that it is suffering. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Computer based technology has a built in obsolesence. That's a fact you will have to learn to deal with better. If I buy a G5 tomorrow I know that at the most I will get two years out of it, if that much. Same with software. Sure you could theoretically stay with OS 9.2, PT 5.3.3 which is extremely stable and solid. But what happens when you are the only one running that? On the one side, your business image may suffer drastically. People may see you as out of it. Also, you may come across OS or software compatibility issues, like Rewire, etc.

The bottom line is when anyone makes the decision to use computer based technology, they will ALWAYS have to upgrade. Always. Deal with it. It's just a question of how often. Every other month. Every year. Every other year, etc.

As for Digidesign being threatened by native offerings that has also been predicted and discussed since day one. It hasn't happened yet. It will not happen in the next two years. It may come to pass if and when G5's get rolling AND most importantly an application challenges Pro Tools established client base. I don't see the Skywalker Sound's and Todd AO's of the world switching to Logic or Nuendo anytime soon. Does anyone honestly? Same with the Ocean Way's, Hit Factory's and Record Plant's of the world. Until those clients begin to switch to other software, Digidesign has little to fear.

A day will come for a scenario like that. Maybe. Just not anytime soon. Besides, if ,or more to the point when, that happens, Digidesign can just simply implement different policies to keep up. Look at SMPTE, Rewire and ASIO. Those are things we would have never have seen just a year ago that are now available.

D. Weeb
08-08-2003, 03:14 PM
I've been using logic for the past 4 months ( mind you, w/ the flakey core audio driver) and it rocks over PT and at least they aren't screwing me!!!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps, but consider this...just 1 Year ago, Emagic told all of their Logic users on Windows to go screw themselves:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4208

About 35% of their user base, 70,000 of their "loyal customers", including those that had forked out almost $1,000 just for a single copy of Logic Platinum software. They were told if they ever wanted to use a newer version of Logic, they would need to buy a Mac. This was their upgrade offer, 4 days after being bought by Apple:
http://news.harmony-central.com/News/2002/Logic-5-Win-Migration.html

Mac zealots might chuckle at these users' misfortune because they were on Windows, but if you think that Emagic really, really cares about you just because you are on a Mac, then you are a bit naive.

Castaliamusic
08-08-2003, 04:11 PM
Why HD cards will work with PCI-X? images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Doc
08-08-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by s2n:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Doc:
That's exactly what I was hoping for images/icons/smile.gif . Possibly just a matter of making a notch in the 001 card and modding the PCI supply to it.
Sounds like my mod may be feasible after all images/icons/cool.gif . <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah...risk frying your $1000 G5 motherboard to get a $100 PCI card working. images/icons/rolleyes.gif <hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand your concern about this but I'm not suggesting anyone without any technical knowledge randomly mess with hardware mods. All I am suggesting is that it may indeed be possible to get the 001 working in a G5. There are many of us who do have qualifications and/or experience in tech issues who'd be willing to figure all this out. We'll be the beta testers and may be able to offer another solution to those who wish to use a 001/G5 combination. I'd be prepared to do the mods for anyone who asked if it all works. This could all be achieved without forfeiting your Mac warranty (new 001's would be a different matter though).

Lucky
08-08-2003, 06:54 PM
I believe that HD cards are already 3.3 volt.

s2n
08-08-2003, 07:21 PM
I guess now you all know why the digi001 doesn't need external power to operate it. It takes 5V and 3.3V power off of the PCI bus to run it.

No modification is possible. Sell the card or take advantage of the exchange program.

None of the MOTU cards are compatible with PCI-X. Does MOTU offer an exchange program? No. Be gratefull that Digi does.

Wedje
08-08-2003, 09:43 PM
So the 001 will NOT work on the new G5 to sum it all up correct? I tried telling my friend who has the "8th G5 to be released" and told me I was full of **** . Is this a definate fact or not?

Doc
08-08-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by s2n:
....I guess now you all know why the digi001 doesn't need external power to operate it. It takes 5V and 3.3V power off of the PCI bus to run it.

No modification is possible. Sell the card or take advantage of the exchange program.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anything is possible if you know how images/icons/wink.gif .
It is fairly common knowledge that the 001 uses the PCI bus for it's power supply. That is the whole point of modding the supply from the bus. images/icons/grin.gif

Castaliamusic
08-09-2003, 05:02 AM
Ok, 001 works with 9600, G3 and G4 computers. I started to use it in december '99 and probably will use it another 2/3 years. Anyway, please stop talking about progress: true progress is compatibility. Interaction between different technologies is essential in today's life. If some technolgy change, it should works with the old one. How about if XLR connectors will not work anymore? Are you happy if you have to upgrade all your system?

REAL progress is compatibility

Lucky
08-09-2003, 08:17 AM
If progress is compatibility then why can't I run an HD system on my 512Ke? Progress is out with the old and in with the new. Things get better and things change. When I bought my 001 in 1999 I never thought that I would be running it indefinatly. In fact, the 001 has out lived 2 of the computers that I used to run it. Obsolecence is part of the computer genre. We can argue and fight but it will not stop companies from tweaking and changing interfaces for the better. That is their business. They have this need to make money. What if they didn't. We might be running NO DAWs on our Apple IIs and DOS. We would be playing games on our Zenith Sinclairs and our Atari's. This really isn't that big of a deal. Stick with what you have until you want to switch. Also, don't expect that the 002 is the last hardware announcement form Digi. Someday we will all need to decide if we want to exchange our 002s for the "new" system that will run on the "new" computers. That is life. Accept it or move on.

Thresholdproductions
08-09-2003, 12:38 PM
Well before all this, I just forked out $800 on an MTPAV so I could run Midi with the core audio driver in PT 6. And now my soud card isn't compatible because of 2 Volt diffrence.

I agree that progress is compatiblity.

Let me make an example. When HDTV will hit North America, do you think that all of a sudden you're new, 2 yr old $2000 t.v will sudenly not work because the broadcasters changed from regular cable and switched it to HD. HD is better, it's crisper and has lots of improvments. And hell, everyone should have it. So has a nice gesture, all the TV manufactuers will offer an exchange so your 2 yr old tv and to an HDTV for only $1800.

Real likely!

What will really happen is that both standards will be implemented so that people with older tvs will still be able to watch normal cable and people with an HDTV will be able to to take advantage of it.

All I'm saying is that Digi is gouging us so they can make more $. Why don't they make some mod for the 001 and sell it for 250$ so we can still use a perfectly good sound card with a newer machine. It can't be that hard.

I have an old school mouse adpater that goes from some old PC standard to usb..so you can use your old mouse in a newer usb standard computer. Compatibility is all around us.

This exchange is a money grab. Plain and simple!

Duardo
08-12-2003, 09:52 PM
Perhaps, but consider this...just 1 Year ago, Emagic told all of their Logic users on Windows to go screw themselves: <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Change "Emagic" to "Apple" in that sentence, and it will make a little more sense...not that I agree with it necessarily...

About 35% of their user base, 70,000 of their "loyal customers", including those that had forked out almost $1,000 just for a single copy of Logic Platinum software. They were told if they ever wanted to use a newer version of Logic, they would need to buy a Mac. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, sure...but again, when you think of the company as Apple rather than Emagic, that 35% figure drops dramatically, doesn't it?

Maybe they figured that if even a small percentage of their users liked Logic enough to switch to a Mac they'd make a lot more money than they would if they continued to sell their software to PC users. After all, they are primarily a computer company...

Mac zealots might chuckle at these users' misfortune because they were on Windows, but if you think that Emagic really, really cares about you just because you are on a Mac, then you are a bit naive. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm sure that Apple cares about Mac users at least a little bit...

Well before all this, I just forked out $800 on an MTPAV so I could run Midi with the core audio driver in PT 6. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would you pay $800 for a device that retails for $595?

And now my soud card isn't compatible because of 2 Volt diffrence. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pretty big difference, isn't it?

When HDTV will hit North America, do you think that all of a sudden you're new, 2 yr old $2000 t.v will sudenly not work because the broadcasters changed from regular cable and switched it to HD. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sort of...it won't work with HDTV signals...there will be a transition period where both HDTV and "regular" TV will be available, but "regular" TV will eventually be phased out and at that point, no, your $2000 TV won't work (at least not without a converter).

What will really happen is that both standards will be implemented so that people with older tvs will still be able to watch normal cable and people with an HDTV will be able to to take advantage of it. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right...for a limited amount of time. And you can still use your Digi001 with a very functional G4, and will be able to for a long, long time.

All I'm saying is that Digi is gouging us so they can make more $. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, if they were really doing that I don't think they'd be offering this tradein offer. I'm sure they'd make more selling a 002 without the trade than with it. Sure, you're not getting back what you paid for it, but I'd imagine it's paid for itself over the past few years?

Why don't they make some mod for the 001 and sell it for 250$ so we can still use a perfectly good sound card with a newer machine. It can't be that hard. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you know how hard it can or can't be? And how do you know that it would only cost $250? With all the complaints about the converters and preamps in the 001, and the fact that it's not 96kHz compatible, I'm not sure if it would be worth the R&D costs to make a new card just for the existing 001 systems out there...

Maybe the third-party modification route would be the best way to go. Maybe you should do it, since you seem to feel it should be so simple.

I have an old school mouse adpater that goes from some old PC standard to usb..so you can use your old mouse in a newer usb standard computer. Compatibility is all around us. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, but I think this is a little more complicated than that. I also think there are a lot more people out there who want to use an old mouse in a new computer than there are people who want to use a 001 in a new computer.

This exchange is a money grab. Plain and simple! <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it would be more of a money grab, and plainer and simpler (from Digidesign's perspective at least) to only sell new 002's. As many have pointed out, they are one of the only companies who offer such an upgrade path...and they've never offered one within the LE lineup before. I think it's pretty impressive that they'd do this.

-Duardo

s2n
08-12-2003, 10:03 PM
Remember when Apple axed the floppy drive from Macs? When was the last time you needed to use a floppy drive?

Doc
08-12-2003, 10:12 PM
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Thresholdproductions:
Why don't they make some mod for the 001 and sell it for 250$ so we can still use a perfectly good sound card with a newer machine. It can't be that hard. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Duardo:
How do you know how hard it can or can't be? And how do you know that it would only cost $250? With all the complaints about the converters and preamps in the 001, and the fact that it's not 96kHz compatible, I'm not sure if it would be worth the R&D costs to make a new card just for the existing 001 systems out there...

Maybe the third-party modification route would be the best way to go. <hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It may well be worth the R&D costs for me to offer this for those who want it and it may be considerably less than US$250.

s2n
08-13-2003, 07:09 AM
You digi001 users have $700 invested in an I/O box. That's nothing. You shoulda seen the hell when Appled dropped NuBus for PCI. PT3 users were really pissed. Or, when Digi decided not to let anybody make I/O for the HD system. Apogee AD8k users were pissed even more. (Not that it meant there systems would somehow stop being usefull.) images/icons/shocked.gif

Chris Coleman
08-13-2003, 07:25 AM
Originally spouted off by Thresholdproductions:

Let me make an example. When HDTV will hit North America, do you think that all of a sudden you're new, 2 yr old $2000 t.v will sudenly not work because the broadcasters changed from regular cable and switched it to HD. HD is better, it's crisper and has lots of improvments. And hell, everyone should have it. So has a nice gesture, all the TV manufactuers will offer an exchange so your 2 yr old tv and to an HDTV for only $1800.

Real likely!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a flawed analogy. Above, you discuss the deliverable end-user medium (HDTV), but not how it was produced (along with all of the necessary equipment changes and advances/upgrades required to do so). In our business (making music or other audio production), the end-user medium is either CD or DVD and those platforms aren't changing, but the means to produce those deliverable platforms are changing ALL THE TIME. But nobody's forcing you to do anything - as far as I can tell, if we still have 117 volts at 60 hz coming out of the walls in 100 years, you can still use a G4 with a 001.

To suggest that a company should just keep supporting a technically obsoleted product is saying they should waste resources and eventually commit suicide. I think we'd all agree that Digi isn't as "innovative" as most hardware/software companies around these days - now just imagine if they had to keep a dying horse alive while trying to come up with and support newer products - nothing would get done. The 001 is dead and gone in terms of future development and it's nobody's fault, leave it alone.

Thresholdproductions
08-13-2003, 10:37 AM
Well lets see what you guys think when all of a sudden 2 yrs from now your 002 rack or 002 will be obsolete cause fire wire is dead. All of a sudden usb 3 is better and faster and the standard. ( I know mac developed fire wire but think hypothetically).

I live in Canada...and the MTPAV retails for $800 at least and the 001 I bought was $1200 CDN and the great deal I'm getting from digidesign for a trade in costs $800 U.S. which is $1000 CDN. Great Deal imop. Yeah $200 off. Can't find any good sound card for 1000 CDN can I ?

After doing some research for sound cards I found that there are a hell of a lot better sound cards out there for the same amount of $ as the trade in price off the 002r. Cards with word clock, SMPTE, portable sound cards with AES/EBU, word clock and more like the metric halo that are able to have hardware updated....imagine that..updating the fire wire port from FW 400 to FW 800 so it doesn't get thrown in the trash after 2 yrs. Boy I bet they spent a lot on R/D development for that. Or maybe they are almost bankrupt? Or get this...Maybe they want to keep their customers happy. Wow...a new concept for corporate America...Customer satisfaction.

And as far as I can tell...the 002 doesn't even have a core audio driver. Real useful. Not that the core audio driver worked well at all to begin with. But really. A mod chip like that wouldn't cost more to develope than to pay you're joe blow electrican a weeks salery to make a circuit with a 2 volt resistor on it. It's not like they are developing a new processor chip here. And I doubt it is an harder to develope than the mouse adapter I talked about earlier. And what does a new mouse cost. 25$ Somebody must have said that there are people who don't want to pay $25 for a new usb mouse. What's the profit margin for that adapter + R/D. Not much. There are a lot of people who don't want to pay $800 for a new sound card... and trust me as more and more people find out about this "deal" (cause the G5 haven't even been shipped yet), there're gonna be some pissed off digi customers. All you guys that aren't complaining either aren't buying a G5 or you already got a 002. But trust me..if all you guys that bought a G4 dual processor couldn't use your 001...this whole board would be a rant.

For people like me who need a new computer and aren't recording platnium selling records, an extra $1000 on a new sound card after spending another $800 two months ago so I could have audio playing form other programs on my now obsolete sound card as well as midi support for other programs on top of a computer thats gonna cost $7000 CDN is a kick in the teeth.

Now that's all I'm gonna say about this!

mike connelly
08-13-2003, 10:48 AM
You do realize that there are many other sound cards (not to mention tons of other cards) that are also obsolete for the exact same reason?

Why exactly do you think that the 002 will become obsolete while a firewire box from metric halo or anyone else will not?

And what exactly is MH doing to update hardware that they've already sold to fix compatibility? I'm curious.

Chris Coleman
08-13-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Thresholdproductions:
Well lets see what you guys think when all of a sudden 2 yrs from now your 002 rack or 002 will be obsolete cause fire wire is dead. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, I was affected by this too since I had a 001 for almost 4 years (one of the first ones). However, I saw the writing on the wall and sold it before the exchange program was announced and before the increased numbers of used 001's hit the market (thus lowering their resale value). Now I've got a 002rack that I'm very happy with.

The change is inevitable and welcomed. However, by the time firewire is "dead", computers will probably fast enough to where an upgrade isn't even a necessity. I'm thinking that I'll be hanging onto this unit for at least 2 years, unless an HD upgrade is absolutely necessary before then. After that, I will take stock of how the computer market and host-based options are progressing and how the dedicated hardware market is progressing. Along the way, I'll most likely purchase a second-revision G5.

I really just don't understand why people have such a tough time fathoming that their 001's are no longer supported by either Digi or Apple...especially since Digi is offering a very generous upgrade path to the 002/002rack. And like I said, in 10 years, you'll still be able to use your 001 and G4 if you really want, it's not as though Digi/Apple were destroying all of them.

antiphase
08-19-2003, 12:18 AM
Hey to those crying that the new G5 won't work with their new stuff........No one is making you switch to a G5.....why can't you just use what is working for you right now?????? If you don't want to upgrade to new hardware then DON'T DO IT!

MoreMeintheMonitors
08-19-2003, 09:37 AM
Does Digi make the G5's? NO!! So quit complaining about how they did this as a 'money grab'!! Apple decided on the changes, NOT Digi. Cripes - use your head!

MidnightFlyer
08-19-2003, 10:39 AM
Doc, if you can come up with a foolproof way of allowing the 001 to work with a G5, you'll have at least 1 customer.

Mety
08-19-2003, 12:14 PM
Me Too!

rgriff
08-19-2003, 12:26 PM
Me 2
R A Y

KamaSutra77
08-19-2003, 03:31 PM
I would guess that whatever "bridge board/powersupply/transformer" you came up with, wouldnt fit in the case. So you'd have to run a ribbon cabble through an open PCI slot out the back of the machine to a chassis. I have to wonder if there are other more involved buffering/filtering/amperage/grounding/shielding/resistance/capacitance issues. I'd find out how many mac users there are amoung the user base first. then estimate how many would require such an upgrade. As I elluded to before, it is unlikley that anyone with the dough for a G5 is too strapped for cash to simply upgrade the interface as well. A limited hand built production run might be a wash if the numbers arn't there for sales. It's possible perhaps. But is it a "good" idea?

better idea, petition Digi to allow software to run wihtout hardware. The G5 can make up for those old Motorollas.
A plan:
Digi developes a patch that enables 6.1 software to run nativly on the G5 ( G5 only, thats the incentive)
Digi collects dough for said patch
The patch would also be ineresting to anyone with a G4/Digi001. Think of it as PTfree with hardware on/off switch.

I would pay $85 for this feature.

cranque
08-19-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by s2n:
<snip>Does MOTU offer an exchange program? No. Be gratefull that Digi does.



They do now. From the "G5 compatibility" link on the motu home page: Existing PCI-424 owners can trade in their PCI-424 card for a new PCI-424/G5 card for $69, plus shipping.

Doc
08-19-2003, 09:00 PM
I would guess that whatever "bridge board/powersupply/transformer" you came up with, wouldnt fit in the case.....



Actually, I believe that would be the easiest part. Modern switch mode power supplies are quite small for their power output and would easily fit inside a desktop case. Most of them are very well regulated and filtered too. Even a simple series regulator running from the 12 volt (or 5 volt) rail of the Mac supply would be more than up to the task and also quite small.
I suspect the "bridge board" will be no more than a simple mod to the 001 card. If this is just a case of cutting a keyway in the card, it could be possible to mod it and retain backwards compatability with older PCI slots.
The only hold up would be finding somebody with a G5 and 001 willing to let me loose. I think this will be the most difficult part (If I had the $$ to buy a G5, I'd work it out on my system).

nuke
08-20-2003, 03:26 PM
The difference between 3.3v PCI and 5V pci is in the signalling levels present on the bus. The PCI standard is moving towards lower voltages for many valid technical reasons.

PCI cards are notched and the PCI sockets have keys which prevent the insertion of incompatible cards into slots they won't work in. That's why they won't fit.

None of this stuff is new. It has been part of the PCI standard for a number of years.

Some cards are happy in either place. Some cards must be in 5v slots, some cards must be in 3v slots. The two shall never meet. If you somehow wedged a 5v card into a 3v bus, you risk damage to every card on the PCI bus and the MLB at the same time.

Hence, the cards are notched to prevent you doing this. Clever huh? Smoke prevention is a good thing.

The only way you could get any 5v only card to work with a G5 is with some sort of PCI-to-PCI bridge and external card cage.

That's really all there is to it.

WorldOfWiz
08-20-2003, 04:29 PM
[QUOTE]
[Well lets see what you guys think when all of a sudden 2 yrs from now your 002 rack or 002 will be obsolete cause fire wire is dead. All of a sudden usb 3 is better and faster and the standard. ( I know mac developed fire wire but think hypothetically).
/quote]

Ok now thats freally funny usb3 better than firewire?? I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that one. usb3 will only in theroy be as fast as FW2 and by the time that happens FW3 will be out and usb will be tapped out. and will still suck for video.

Wiz

Doc
08-20-2003, 07:10 PM
The difference between 3.3v PCI and 5V pci is in the signalling levels present on the bus. The PCI standard is moving towards lower voltages for many valid technical reasons.....




Hmmmm..... Kind of like TTL vs CMOS? Bugger
I was hoping this was just a supply rail issue but I guess that wouldn't really make sense with CPU's and mobo's using 3.3v for everything.

Dannii's thoughts (AKA Jerry Springer ):

Some 3.3v cards will fit and work in 5v slots (eg HD) so they must have a certain tolerance margain designed into the card. That being the case, if there is risk of damage from using a 5v card in a 3.3v slot (assuming the key was modded to suit) then surely that is a because some of the new PCI chipsets do not have this tolerance margain built in. I guess there's a trade off between tolerance margains and things like slew rate and bus speed so I suppose it wouldn't make sense to design a higher performance standard and cripple it with backwards compatability.
Oh well....
Hopefully the introduction of the G5 causes a significant reduction in the price of Mac processor upgrades which are still quite expensive in Aus.