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ProTool1
11-23-1999, 04:32 PM
I am working with a band right now, in the Korn, Limp Bizkit, or maybe System Of a Down,
genre of music.

Now you have to understand that these guys are using 7 string gits and tuning to a
LOW G! I mean this is so low that most guitar amps have trouble reproducing the lower notes.

Anyway, we have just finished tracking the last song today, and now I am sitting here just throwing up some rough mixes to take home and get some ideas.

My Problem Is:

I am finding that traditional placement and eq's of instruments just aren't settling things in the mix the way I want them to.
I don't listen to this kind of music in my personal time and own no CD's of this type for any kind of reference. I usually hate to reference my work to anything else, but I am feeling in this case I may have to.

Here's what's going on:

Drums: Huge! I used studioA and a very tall and very wide overhead setup. (hence a hat mic as well) We have got a great drum sound to work with but after trying to put up some rough mixes, I am afraid the room sound may be a little to big.

Bass: Hartke stack, miked it with a 409, it was still lacking a little oomph so I ran a DI at the same time.

GITS: (left channel) Soldano Stack close miked with a 57, and a C1000 for a room mic.
(right channel) Hughes & Kettner half stack
close miked with an EV 660, in the dead room.

VOX: Numerous different mics, used a different on most songs, but the most consistent was the TLM 103.


Anyone who has worked with this genre of band please leave a few tips below, I would really appreciate any new ideas you can generate.

Thanks in advance.

Disco_Doctor
11-23-1999, 05:32 PM
Gee, I hope this answer doesn't seem to obvious, but - have you considered going out and buying a Korn, Limp Bizkit, and a System of a Down album so you can hear for yourself what other people are doing?

And while you're at it, pick up a few albums by Pantera, White Zombie, Powerman5000, Type-O-Negative, Slayer, Rage Against the Machine, Suicidal Tendencies, Alice in Chains, and Metallica and start to get a vague familiarity with the genre that you're working on. You owe it to the band to be familiar with their style of music before you work on their record.

http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

Rail Jon Rogut
11-23-1999, 06:43 PM
When I recorded Fred, we used a u47 into a 1073 and a TubeTech CL1B. For System, it was a 57 into a 1073 with an 1176.

Drums for System were tracked at Capitol B, not a big room -- very tight.

I'm with DiscoD... go to your local record store.

Rail

------------------
Recording Engineer

[This message has been edited by Rail Jon Rogut (edited 11-23-99).]

Jonny Atack
11-24-1999, 02:40 AM
Great stuff, Rail!

I'm curious to know if the choice of a 57 for System was more to avoid damaging a condenser mic or to get that particular sound?

Stratman
11-24-1999, 09:43 AM
I agree with the lads that is crucial to reference to the genre you are working in. The latest Limp Bizkit album is great for checking out your approach to the drums. The first song starts with just the drums so you can really analyze what they sound like.

Heres a little tip to tighten up your big room on the drums.

Take your snare track and place it next to your drum room tracks. If the room is as big as you say, you should see several milliseconds of difference between them. This is adding to the bigness factor. Group your room mic tracks and try dragging them forward in time closer to where the attack of the close mic snare is. The closer you make the relationship, the smaller the room gets. Check out the difference it makes. Just make sure it is not effecting any phase relationships with say, OH's, etc.

This is a trick engineers use in classical recordings if the room or hall gets too unruly.

Good Luck

bluemt
11-24-1999, 10:31 AM
The best advice I can offer when working with this style of music is after all the tracks are recorded on disk, delete all of the session files, format all of your hard drives, burn all notes on the sessions, bury any tape masters, and explain gently to the band that you've done humanity a great service.

ProTool1
11-24-1999, 11:05 AM
And while you're at it, pick up a few albums by Pantera, White Zombie, Powerman5000, Type-O-Negative, Slayer, Rage Against the Machine, Suicidal Tendencies, Alice in Chains, and Metallica and start to get a vague familiarity with the genre that you're working on. You owe it to the band to be familiar with their style of music before you work on their record.

Hey man, I do own all of these, and in fact
two of them were my last two jobs. I don't consider any of these bands to be in the "korn" genre. Not even korn is tuned to a low G, the lowest they go is A.

Let me narrow down my problems in hopes of some real help here.

I love, I mean I LOVE the drum sound I captured with these guys. But, it may be the problem. I am not against retracking drums in studioB but I am hoping anyone who has really worked with bands of this genre will have some ideas on how I should approach the mix. I want a real raw sound like the System Of A Down CD, but I am having trouble working it that way with the big drums. But I don't want to go with tight drums.

Once again, any help is appreciated.

ProTool1
11-24-1999, 11:09 AM
You know, after posting that last message and reading it again, I feel like I may have sounded like a jerk. I'm sorry. I'm not attacking anyone here, and I do appreciate the help.

bluemt: That's pretty humorous. http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

Disco_Doctor
11-24-1999, 01:33 PM
You know, after posting that last message and reading it again, I feel like I may have sounded like a jerk. I'm sorry. I'm not attacking anyone here, and I do appreciate the help.

No sweat man - I didn't take it that way at all.

In your original post, you wrote:

I don't listen to this kind of music in my personal time and own no CD's of this type for any kind of reference.

...but then you said:

Hey man, I do own all of these...

That's kinda confusing...you don't listen to "this kind of music", but you own all the CD's I listed?

Then you said:

I don't consider any of these bands to be in the "korn" genre.

I respectfully disagree. Despite the fact that my moshing days are behind me and I'm no longer always hip to the latest trends in heavy rock, I can say with certainty that most of the bands I listed as examples are well within the genre of "Heavy" - including Korn. Don't let my user name fool you. I love heavy rock, especially if it involves playing a tuned down E string really fast while singing about depression, homicide, drugs, and Satan.

Assuming Korn is the reference point for the sound of the band you are currently working on, I would feel perfectly comfortable referencing the discs I listed above (and many others) to guide me during the production and mixing phase. Pantera and Type-O tuned waaay down on their records. Another "low-frequency" band that comes to mind right now is Soundgarden.

The bands I listed may not be a perfect style match of the "Korn genre" as you put it, but they are all collectively well within the realm of heavy rock and could be safely used as a reference point for the sound of your current project - just my opinion.

I don't think the question you are asking can be properly answered via text replies on a bulletin board. If you are producing a heavy rock band, you should know what you want it to sound like. If you don't know, you should sit down and listen to any and every album that is in the genre, and figure out what you want to do. After all - you are the engineer!! Sincerely - I'm not trying to be sarcastic or offensive - I really think that's the best answer to your question.

Good luck!

http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

Natural Sound
11-24-1999, 08:52 PM
My 2 cents.
You're in pretty deep, but all is not lost. In my early years I have recorded bands that, when discussing the type of sound, I'm told "big huge drums". So we record'em big. Then come mix time, they bring in a CD of what they want the end result to sound like, and it's not anywhere near as big as they thought it was, and here we are with a big set.(I do things a bit differently now) BUT, and here comes the answer to your problem, If you search through your CD's you will find a number of songs that have a sound similar to what you've recorded. Use that as your reference. Don't try to make the mix something that it isn't.
EXAMPLE
I've been told that for a certain style, that the vocals HAVE to be "back in the mix", yet I've found many examples where the Voc is up front. Sometimes on the same CD.
And one more thought. The difference between what it sounds like and what it really is, is one of illusion. (it's not really huge, it just sounds that way because maybe it's more up front.)You're the magician, and it's time for you to start working some magic. That's what seperates an engineer from a soundman.
This IS art afterall. Maybe you're coming up with a new sound hybrid that will have everyone next month asking "how so I get that Protool1 sound?"
And one more thing and then I'll shut up. We all feel for ya and we hope you've learned another valuable lesson. -Get reference CD's BEFORE you begin the project. Preferably from the band, and discuss which cuts to reference.
On the other hand, you have to keep in mind, that no matter how bad it gets, it could be worse....
...you could be making fries!


[This message has been edited by Natural Sound (edited 11-24-99).]

11-25-1999, 04:35 AM
Screww off any ambient mics for a start! If the overheads are too roomy still just use Kik sn and toms mics compress and eq and you might get all the cymbals you need from them via eq and bleed. You DO know the drum group + the compressed drum group trick don't you?
Take the time to A/B at top volume while tweaking! (Take frequent breaks!)
Good luck! http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

Jules

Jonny Atack
11-25-1999, 07:29 AM
Just don't reference to the latest korn CD 'issues'. The korn fans I know are really disappointed by it. Also, the sound on the European pressings is way over-squashed to the point where there are almost no dynamics left.

I like and know this particular genre well, but if you can find a way to twist it into something a little different, I think a lot of people would welcome it.

If you decide to leave the drums that big, it may be quite difficult to mix the low, deep guitars in with them. That's perhaps one reason why the piccolo snare and tight hip hop drumkits worked well with downtuned guitars on albums like korn and limp. However, that tight drum sound characteristic of the genre was replaced by a more conventional 'big ambiance' drum sound on the korn 'issues' release -- not a good decision IMHO. The new korn sounds like an overproduced altrock regression, not a new sound. My advice would be to stay raw, real, and tight. Good luck.

ProTools4
11-25-1999, 10:01 AM
Your now in another world PT1.

Forget everything Led Zep taught us.

My $.02 on the Korn sound
Drums = tight punchhy dead.
Rythm GTR = compressed to hell by dist and mushy in freq. AKA no mids.
Lead GTR = Peircing bright and warbly
Vox = go nuts with amp fam and comp bank
Bass = tight clicky very little ring or rez

The individual insterments don't sound so good But the band will be Phat. The Kick and bass sould work as one and most of the bottem should come from the ryth guitar There is a different formula all together.

BTW how did they get in G? I have to buy VERY custom strings to get to B and set up the neck and intonaton to the MAX!.

And why are you mixing this? Why not someone who has done it before?


------------------
Tad Banzuelo
ProTools4@aol.com

brandono
11-25-1999, 04:44 PM
"The best advice I can offer when working with this style of music is after all the tracks are recorded on disk, delete all of the session files, format all of your hard drives, burn all notes on the sessions, bury any tape masters, and explain gently to the band that you've done humanity a great service."

I couldn't agree more! As if all this high tech talk of how to tweak the sound really matters. A fart, through the best preamp and compressor, is still a fart! Rather than you going to the record store, turn these kids on to some good music and send them back to the store!! http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

Disco_Doctor
11-26-1999, 04:51 AM
A fart, through the best preamp and compressor, is still a fart! Rather than you going to the record store, turn these kids on to some good music and send them back to the store!!

Speakin' of farts, you sound like a really old one. Now head on back to your den old timer, and enjoy your Muzak and Easy Listening while we rock out to violent heavy metal and have sex with your daughter!

http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

(Sorry - I just couldn't help myself. I know. I'm bad. Bad Disco!! Bad!!!)

RIO B.
11-26-1999, 10:46 AM
all music types are fine..Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean it is garbage...but hey maybe your to Fuc--- stupid or closed minded to realize this,,

I agree with DISCO

brandono
11-26-1999, 11:53 AM
I love getting those creative juices flowing! Even from people who aren't very creative (Disco-you excepted, the old fart tie in was genius).

I assure you, I rock as hard as any motherfu**er you guys have ever worked with. Pansies!

http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif
Its all in good fun.

subspace
11-27-1999, 12:49 AM
"The best advice I can offer when working with this style of music is after all the tracks are recorded on disk, delete all of the session files, format all of your hard drives, burn all notes on the sessions, bury any tape masters, and explain gently to the band that you've done humanity a great service."

The best response to this statement that I can think of comes from Suicidal Tendencies's song "You can't bring me down"

The reply:

"Just cause you don't understand what's going on don't mean it don't make no sense. And just because you don't like it don't mean it ain't no good. And let me tell you something, before you go taking a walk in my world, you better take a look at the real world. Cause this ain't no Mister Roger's Neighborhood. Can you say "Feel like S**t?"
Yea maybe sometimes I do feel like s**t. I ain't happy 'bout it, but I'd rather feel like s**t than be full of s**t! And if I offended you, oh I'm sorry, but maybe you needed to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...f**k you!
Cause you can't bring me down!"

Nothing personal, just thought Suicidal said it well.

(All in good fun)

Robbie Analog
11-27-1999, 08:25 AM
You DO know the drum group + the compressed drum group trick don't you?

What d'you mean, Julian?

[This message has been edited by Robbie Analog (edited 11-27-99).]

11-27-1999, 09:34 AM
Robbie Analog - Comp drum group trick = Drums + a 'double'(stereo group) of the same drums with heavy compression on (making them bitch n snap) , add the two versions together , it sounds better than just normal drums. Seems like you could do with some general tips, why not sign onto the newsgroup rec.audio.pro ? You can learn a lot there. (I have) It's a great place for asking audio questions!
Gobble! gobble!

http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/grin.gif

Jules

bluemt
11-28-1999, 07:34 AM
If you absolutely can't follow my first line of advice then I suggest you stop thinking so much about what sounds good. The band won't know the difference and neither will their fans. Remember, their audience has been conditioned by listening to Korn, Limp Biscuit, etc. and their neuro-pathways and auditory senses have already been damaged.

music
12-03-1999, 05:35 PM
Rail,

I would love to hear more of your ideas about recording and mixing this type of music; Guitars?
Vox?
Bass?
Drums?

Thanks,

Keith

http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

12-03-1999, 07:24 PM
I saw Will Haven tonight, they were cool.
Jules
London

ProTool1
12-06-1999, 01:53 PM
THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!

Kind of a wrap up:

DISCO- I feel that Korn, LB, and System of a Down are in fact an entirely different genre than say, Pantera, or RATM. They don't "feel" the same. Thanks for the help.

Julian- I did in fact end up killing th OH's in some songs, I have used this method before, and I'll have to say it worked extremely well in this case, the drummer had 5 toms, I got all the cymbals I needed from the bleed, and the stereo effect turned out pretty amazing as well. Thanks for the suggestion.

ProTools4- Thanks a ton, your reply was more along the lines of what I was originally searching for.

Also a big thank you to all of the smart asses who kept the thread quite humourous.

http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

KymataDigital
12-06-1999, 10:17 PM
I have an idea. Why not create a fresh sound for the band instead of copying Korn et al. Isn't anybody tired of that "heavily produced and processed" metal ****? DAMN!

P.S. Remember to stick a EQP1A on the vocal during the bridge for that catchy telephone sound. :P

Disco_Doctor
12-07-1999, 12:04 AM
Thank you Kymata - my point exactly.

I feel that Korn, LB...are...entirely different genre than say, Pantera, or RATM. They don't "feel" the same.

Hmmm...so lemme get this straight...ProTools4 typed up a brief, generic, TEXT description of what Korn sounds like to him, and that helped you "feel" what the mix should sound like better better than just listening to the CD? I don't get it man...I just don't get it...

http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

Smart_Ass_Doctor

[This message has been edited by Disco_Doctor (edited 12-07-99).]