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Andre B
11-11-1999, 08:19 AM
Anybody else having this specific dillema? Everytime we create 22.5-8 bit-mono-WAV files the volume appears to be uncontrollable. I'm using the 22.5 Brickwall plug-in from WAVES, setting the output master at -6db,"gently" running it through the UltraMax, and bounceing it disk using the squeezer function. We've tried different output settings and plug-ins but the result is always a very loud (not distorted) file that demands a lot from the people finishing the CD-I. Whatever you can pass along would be a help. Thanks in advance

AdamFrick
11-12-1999, 05:33 AM
Andre -

Haven't had this specific problem, but the process I have been using recently is:

- bounce out of ProTools at session quality
- use WaveConvertPro (from Waves) to do conversion.

Taking that extra step may be enough to gain control. Within WaveConvert you can add plugs, etc.

best of luck -

-adam

Andre B
11-12-1999, 09:03 AM
Adam,

Thanks for the tip. I called WAVES about that particular application and they told me that it was discontinued. And, they no longer support it at all. Know of any other programs that allow for some of the same features? I've got SoundApp, but that doesn't offer any of the controls that you mentioned.

AdamFrick
11-12-1999, 10:52 AM
One last thought -

I used to do bounces out of Protools, set to convert after bounce into whatever format, and always used best or tweak-head. I know that can be very slow, but I would start from there to troubleshoot this problem. Also, I used UltraMax's IDR to go ahead down to 8 bit, with noise shaping and stuff, bounced out at 8 bits, then the converter only had to down-sample.

Good luck. I'm afraid that's all the help I'll be!

-adam

Mark Fassett
11-12-1999, 11:13 AM
It seems to me the problem might be using the Waves L1 AND the squeezer at the same time.. they are pretty much the same thing, except the L1 gives you control.

Dump the squeezer.. the L1 is enough.

-Mark

Bergeron
11-13-1999, 06:02 AM
Kudos to both of you on this one. I had already been using the "tweakhead" setting along with the squeezer and the Ultra-Shaping/Dither 2 settings on the UltraMax. But, removing the squeezer function, and dithering down at the plug-in stage made a noticable difference. All that bit reduction was actually tolerable to listen to. Anybody using any tricks to restore some of the high end that must be sheared off with the 22.5 brickwall?

Monte McGuire
11-13-1999, 08:33 PM
Bergeron wrote:
>> Anybody using any tricks to restore some of the high end that must be sheared off with the 22.5 brickwall? <<

My trick is to place an 11KHz lowpass filter on the master and build the mix into that at 44.1. Then, when you do the final downsampling, there will hardly be any HF energy up there to lose and the mix retains its sound. I've been using this trick for a few years for some educational CDROMs and they keep coming back to me for more mixes...

Actually, I usually place 11KHz lowpass filters on the first insert of each bus (dialogue, sfx, music), since I use dynamics on those buses and I want any dynamics to work on the lowpassed signals, not the wideband signals.

One final note: Waves has a nice set of lowpass filters for the Q6, but they name them incorrectly if you think like an EE. Their 11KHz brickwall cuts off at 5.5KHz, not 11KHz. So, the 22KHz filter is what you want for 22KHz sampling... it cuts off at 11KHz...

I was tricked by that one once...!

Enjoy,

Monte McGuire

Andre B
11-15-1999, 11:57 AM
Thanks Monte,

So, if it came down to deciding between either the 11kHz lo pass, or the Waves 22.5 brickwall would you choose one over the other? I have access to both. The idea of putting the lo pass on the 1st stage of the bus is an excellent idea. I'll try and conduct some experiments tonight or tomorrow.
Thanks.

Would love to hear from anyone else on this topic too

Charles Deenen
11-17-1999, 09:41 PM
Andre, monte's trick worked a few years ago pretty well.

Currently, if I was you, I wouldn't mix that way anymore. What if your client all of a sudden does an "upgraded" release. You'll be stuck remixing the thing for free.

Also, 22k sound will be a thing of the past pretty soon.

I've been doing multimedia mixing for 16 years now, and lately, all mixes that are done here are at standard rates (48-24bit), and downgraded after this if needed. The trick is to try to keep your response as flat as possible, which you can do in the following way:

- whichever program you use to downconvert, find out how steap it's anti-alias filter is. Wave-convert's has provent to be one of the steapest without any custom tools.
- Compensate for this filter-curve before doing your down-conversion. We found that a 3-6db peak at 11khz with a fairly narrow width will do. Go further, and you risk harshness.

-charles

Andre B
11-18-1999, 07:10 AM
Thanks for the tip on this. How does one determine the steepness of the anti-aliasing in an application? In general, we've been keeping our mixes at around -6 in order not to push the "crunchiness" that occurs. Thanks again