S3 or D-command?

[Eruk]

Hey Guys,
I've got the change to buy a second hand D-Command (blue)with a fader pack for about €6000 excl tax, and I really like the D-command.
But I'm having doubts because the D-command will not be working with new versions of Protools in the future because it's already officialy not supported anymore. As the Avid S3 is about €4000 excl tax I'm not sure what to buy. What would you recommend? How long do you think the D-command will be working with Protools?

[Craig F]

I would go with the D-Comm, it made the 64 bit transition
they should be around for a long time
there are so many installed around LA, one Avid Board member has 10 and can not just change them out major pain
Disney, Fox, and Warner Bothers aren't going to just change out their installs

[Eruk]

Thank you for your reply! Thats good to know. Could you make an estimation on how long a long time is, 2 years, 5 years 10? I understand you cant give a definite time span, but it would be something to consider..

[Craig F]

I would guess at least 5 years, probably 10ish

[jacko]

Hey Guys,
I've got the change to buy a second hand D-Command (blue)with a fader pack for about €6000 excl tax, and I really like the D-command.
But I'm having doubts because the D-command will not be working with new versions of Protools in the future because it's already officialy not supported anymore. As the Avid S3 is about €4000 excl tax I'm not sure what to buy. What would you recommend? How long do you think the D-command will be working with Protools?

D-Command will be working as long as you don't upgrade to a version that won't support it. And there will be no software feature worth sacrificing D-Command. Only S6 with the latest software is becoming a reasonable alternative to a fantastic D-Command. S3 would be a huge downgrade. I've worked on both, and I like both.

Watch this video. It is just scratching the surface of how great D-Command is and will be for many more years: http://apps.avid.com/events/webinars/post-production/d-command/in-depth-webcam.html

PS.: Avid will likely remove the video at some point, as it advertises a product that competes with S6 and is available at very low prices on eBay ;)

[audioluche]

Hey Guys,
I've got the change to buy a second hand D-Command (blue)with a fader pack for about €6000 excl tax, and I really like the D-command.
But I'm having doubts because the D-command will not be working with new versions of Protools in the future because it's already officialy not supported anymore. As the Avid S3 is about €4000 excl tax I'm not sure what to buy. What would you recommend? How long do you think the D-command will be working with Protools?

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=344134

ICON will be supported until september 2018.
But it will probably continue to work for years after that.
I would love to buy a S6, but it's too expensive right now, maybe when my D-command will stop working, used S6 will be affordable!

[smurfyou]

I'd go for the D-command. I haven't tried the faders on the S3 but thats my only complaint about the D-command. Well that and the metering sucks but at least it's there.

S3 is neat on first look but its very overpriced and from what I can tell more limited.

[Tom Graham]

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=344134

ICON will be supported until september 2018.
But it will probably continue to work for years after that.
I would love to buy a S6, but it's too expensive right now, maybe when my D-command will stop working, used S6 will be affordable!

The original blue D-Commands end of support date was December 2014
the ES D-Command end of support date is August 2018

http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/faq/End-of-support-dates

Have you checked out the features on the S3?
It does some really cool stuff…


Thanks,
Tom

[Brandonx1]

I am a Lone Ranger on this one but I think anything eu on is better then anything icon. For me it's the fact that eu on control surfaces follow you around while you have to focus on an icon. I do a s ton of automation on every mix and not having to press a button every time I want to work on audio is a god send. Even the artist series is faster then an icon. Icons can to more tricks but they don't automatically focus the channel you select in pro tools.

[jacko]

I am a Lone Ranger on this one but I think anything eu on is better then anything icon. For me it's the fact that eu on control surfaces follow you around while you have to focus on an icon. I do a s ton of automation on every mix and not having to press a button every time I want to work on audio is a god send. Even the artist series is faster then an icon. Icons can to more tricks but they don't automatically focus the channel you select in pro tools.

I'd worked on Icon controllers in 2006-2008, then briefly on Control24, then when Pro Tools 10 came with well integrated Eucon I used Artist Mix, Transport and Control. Last year I briefly used S3. Having this much experience working with Pro Tools control surfaces I switched back to Icon D-Command this year. And there are no words that I could use to say how much faster and more productive it is than Artist Series, including S3.

What you might not know is that there is a preference in Icon where you can set it to automatic focus and it is nice and useful, while it is absolutely horrible on Eucon surfaces. The main difference is: when you open up a EQ or Dynamics plugin using mouse in Pro Tools, the channel becomes automatically focused and you control the plugin on Icon's EQ or Dynamics section. Eucon will not focus automatically a plugin selected in Pro Tools. You have to select it from the surface. And so far, I've seen this is still the case even on S6. Even cheap Command8 is better in this regard, see my video I posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faqwPMq_Kqo

[YYR123]

Great video, now what's sad is that avid owns Eucon....so that means they could write that functionality into the software. The only thing stopping them from doing this is A desire to make the product awesome, so if you never see increased functionality it's b/c they don't want to do it.....sad.

[Brandonx1]

I'd worked on Icon controllers in 2006-2008, then briefly on Control24, then when Pro Tools 10 came with well integrated Eucon I used Artist Mix, Transport and Control. Last year I briefly used S3. Having this much experience working with Pro Tools control surfaces I switched back to Icon D-Command this year. And there are no words that I could use to say how much faster and more productive it is than Artist Series, including S3.

What you might not know is that there is a preference in Icon where you can set it to automatic focus and it is nice and useful, while it is absolutely horrible on Eucon surfaces. The main difference is: when you open up a EQ or Dynamics plugin using mouse in Pro Tools, the channel becomes automatically focused and you control the plugin on Icon's EQ or Dynamics section. Eucon will not focus automatically a plugin selected in Pro Tools. You have to select it from the surface. And so far, I've seen this is still the case even on S6. Even cheap Command8 is better in this regard, see my video I posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faqwPMq_Kqo
I use a controller so I don't have to select anything with a mouse.

[Barry Johns]

The original blue D-Commands end of support date was December 2014
the ES D-Command end of support date is August 2018

http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/faq/End-of-support-dates

Have you checked out the features on the S3?
It does some really cool stuff…


Thanks,
Tom

You guys would be crucifying yourselves be intentionally bricking any version of the d- command in the future!

You have risked screwing the smaller market guys with bricking the ProControl, but you have way too many D-Comnands installed in the video world, not even the Avid of today is that stupid!

[Drew Mazurek]

You guys would be crucifying yourselves be intentionally bricking any version of the d- command in the future!

You have risked screwing the smaller market guys with bricking the ProControl, but you have way too many D-Comnands installed in the video world, not even the Avid of today is that stupid!

1st gen D Commands/Controls use the exact same profile as their 2nd gen counterparts. So while the official line is end of support in 2014 for 1st gen, the reality is 2018 for both from a software perspective. Parts is a different story of course.

[Logichead]

Don't some of the new controllers (S series) require a support plan (paid) for software updates? The D-Command doesn't of course. Best...H

[Tom Graham]

Don't some of the new controllers (S series) require a support plan (paid) for software updates? The D-Command doesn't of course. Best...H

Hi - Yes the S6 customers need to be on a current support plan for their S6 to receive software functionality updates (and likely be matched withe the latest version of Pro Tools software on a plan if there are key features linked to Pro Tools like in the latest 2.0 version - automation lanes on the scrolling waveforms on the M40 Display Modules)

The S3 customers only need to be on a Pro Tools support plan to get the latest features and functionality.

[jacko]

Hi - Yes the S6 customers need to be on a current support plan for their S6 to receive software functionality updates (and likely be matched withe the latest version of Pro Tools software on a plan if there are key features linked to Pro Tools like in the latest 2.0 version - automation lanes on the scrolling waveforms on the M40 Display Modules)

The S3 customers only need to be on a Pro Tools support plan to get the latest features and functionality.

How much S6 support plan is?

[Barry Johns]

Hi - Yes the S6 customers need to be on a current support plan for their S6 to receive software functionality updates (and likely be matched withe the latest version of Pro Tools software on a plan if there are key features linked to Pro Tools like in the latest 2.0 version - automation lanes on the scrolling waveforms on the M40 Display Modules)

The S3 customers only need to be on a Pro Tools support plan to get the latest features and functionality.

You guys are burying such a deep hole for yourselves, I makes me sick to my stomach thinking I'm so relied on your products........I can imagine the annual budget meeting right now, they guy who convinced everyone that they needed to shell out all this money on a new controller, now has to go back and tell them that they have to spend 600..00 for every single copy of PT they own in their facility just to keep that expensive S6 operating properly.......I'd bet the farm that not one single decision maker in regards to upgrading to the S6 ever thought for one second that they would have to pay an annual subscription plan. That guy is now worried that his reputation is now tarnished. You have to imagine that they had D-Commands before the S6 upgrade. Already hard to justify an ROI for the S6 upgrade, then they annual penalty plan.......Its not like these facilities just have one copy of PTHD.

Tell me one rational person who spends 50-75k on a big mouse would think its acceptable that they have to spend another 600 a year minimum just to keep it working.......

[YYR123]

You know I thought the same thing at first, but then I realized that if they bought a S6 they aren't worried about $600 pesos.

I bet they are worried they don't have it fully pimped with the first version of software for that S6, at that price point I would expect nothing less than awesome.

I mean you buy a Mercedes, you expect awesomeness from day one.....continually, there are no excuses

[Barry Johns]

You know I thought the same thing at first, but then I realized that if they bought a S6 they aren't worried about $600 pesos.

I bet they are worried they don't have it fully pimped with the first version of software for that S6, at that price point I would expect nothing less than awesome.

I mean you buy a Mercedes, you expect awesomeness from day one.....continually, there are no excuses

Here is the kicker, most of these type places have 10 or more PTHD licenses, so its not 600, its 6K plus a year.

Also, keep in mind, this applies to the S3 too, a 4k controller.......

[reichman]

Tell me one rational person who spends 50-75k on a big mouse would think its acceptable that they have to spend another 600 a year minimum just to keep it working.......

I don't even own an S6, my current project budgets don't justify the expenditure. But every year for the last ten years I've spent FAR MORE than $600 to keep my Pro Tools software and 3rd-party software up to date. I don't understand why so many people are bothered by the subscription system.

If I did own an S6, I would be astounded if it only cost $600 to keep it current. That's a deal!

[Logichead]

The issue is that requiring a subscription for a nearly $100,000 console is a new development. Now, if that $600 support plan also covers the mechanical servicing as well it might well be worth it.

Some of us remember when HD updates were significantly less expensive and at the option of the user. During that time the software appeared to be improving as well. The last great features were elastic audio and disc cache, although I suppose the under the hood improvements in 11 could also be included. IMOYMMV

It also explains why the D-Command and D-Control remain viable even though they are out of production.

Best....H

[Wall2Wall]

the facilities I know of lease their gear, especially S6, D-control, and have already been on avid support plans that cost more than $600. the next day overnight shipping of a replacement part is a major reason.

but... the avid advantage support plan for pro tools hd is $400/yr and includes software updates. is that being phased out?

you can see a few of the avid advantage support plans here

http://www.fullcompass.com/category/Support-Plans-Programs.html?brand%5B%5D=AVD

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=avid+advantage&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

Avid's whole structure is very confusing and vague.

[Tom Graham]

When you buy the S6 M10 or M40 system it comes with a full year of hardware support and software upgrades included. From our website:
"S6 comes with one year of Avid Advantage ExpertPlus support with Hardware Coverage, which includes 7x24 support access, priority phone support, advance hardware exchange (next business day), complimentary S6 software upgrades, and more to keep you up and running."

If you wish to cover every module or only some modules for the 24-7 support plan after that first year - you can choose to do so for a price based on what you have. If you only wish to cover the Master Module and also receive software enhancements/updates for that next year it is roughly $ 600 for the M10 and roughly a $ 1,000 for the M40.

[Barry Johns]

When you buy the S6 M10 or M40 system it comes with a full year of hardware support and software upgrades included. From our website:
"S6 comes with one year of Avid Advantage ExpertPlus support with Hardware Coverage, which includes 7x24 support access, priority phone support, advance hardware exchange (next business day), complimentary S6 software upgrades, and more to keep you up and running."

If you wish to cover every module or only some modules for the 24-7 support plan after that first year - you can choose to do so for a price based on what you have. If you only wish to cover the Master Module and also receive software enhancements/updates for that next year it is roughly $ 600 for the M10 and roughly a $ 1,000 for the M40.

Tom, help me understand the support plan requirement for the s3, a 4k controller. 600 a year to keep it up to date!

[Barry Johns]

the facilities I know of lease their gear, especially S6, D-control, and have already been on avid support plans that cost more than $600. the next day overnight shipping of a replacement part is a major reason.

but... the avid advantage support plan for pro tools hd is $400/yr and includes software updates. is that being phased out?

you can see a few of the avid advantage support plans here

http://www.fullcompass.com/category/Support-Plans-Programs.html?brand%5B%5D=AVD

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=avid+advantage&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

Avid's whole structure is very confusing and vague.

If we were just talking support, I completely understand. But you can't get any updates to Eucon, unless you're paying ProTools annual support plan.

These are completely different things! So let's say avid fixes bugs, I just said bugs didn't I, that's right, avid actually fixing things they screwed up to begin with, well you can't get any of those updates unless you're paying the $600 year ProTools HD support plan! That's what's so freaking insane!

[Barry Johns]

Also, I've been using a pro control, for well over a decade, and I have never, not once, ever needed any support for it!

[Wall2Wall]

If we were just talking support, I completely understand. But you can't get any updates to Eucon, unless you're paying ProTools annual support plan.

These are completely different things! So let's say avid fixes bugs, I just said bugs didn't I, that's right, avid actually fixing things they screwed up to begin with, well you can't get any of those updates unless you're paying the $600 year ProTools HD support plan! That's what's so freaking insane!

For each advantage plan:

Software Upgrades: Software upgrades for the system will be provided to Advantage customers at no charge

It's very confusing what Avid has going on here.

[YYR123]

It's a tiered system to try to take in some money.

Obviously every company needs to, it's just with the new Board's direction it seems that the most important goal

It's weird I suppose more of a software company's situation, b/c I don't see other hardware companies slumming to get subscription fees

It is what it is.......acceptance is the first step

[smurfyou]

The main issue to me is that the S6 was not finished when it was released. Paying for support and upgrades is one thing. But the line between software update and software upgrade has disappeared. So to get bug fixes and base functionality now you have to upgrade rather than simply update.

One year just does not seem long enough at the current development rate.

[Artist PM]

Tom, help me understand the support plan requirement for the s3, a 4k controller. 600 a year to keep it up to date!

With EuControl/Artist/S3, features are delivered in adapters. The Pro Tools adapter gets features first.

That's why there is an advantage to being on the latest version of Pro Tools when you have an EuControl/Artist/S3 surface, the latest version of Pro Tools will have the latest adapter. You don't need a support contract specific to EuControl/Artist/S3 - you get the features in Pro Tools.

3P's can implement features after Pro Tools does, when we make them available in the public SDK. It's a priority to us to implement the latest features. 3P's are variably incentivized to implement SDK features, so if control surface integration is important to you, the latest version of Pro Tools is the best solution.

S6 is a separate technology base and delivery target for features.
A lot of features are S6 specific, and are not realized in EuControl surfaces.

It’s above and beyond what EUCON in the EuControl world does, and takes substantial development.

If you use old S6 software with new DAW adapters, your mileage may vary, you won’t have access to the latest development on both sides.
So there is a definite advantage to being on Pro Tools and S6 support plans.

JC

[mtung]

D-command! Learn what it can do and you'll never look back. I would suggest making a pull-out keyboard tray under it so that you can get the unit closer when you're just mixing. No other controller puts the things you need most right in front of you. My 0.02 cents.

[Craig F]

I would be way more interested in the S-3/S-6 if I could run an MC524 instead of an Xmon

[Tom Graham]

I would be way more interested in the S-3/S-6 if I could run an MC524 instead of an Xmon

Those don't really apply to the S3. It has a built-in stereo AVB interface that can act as a standalone monitor section.

[J-S-Q]

Those don't really apply to the S3. It has a built-in stereo AVB interface that can act as a standalone monitor section.

Tom, if you don't use the AVB interface, but just use the S3 as a monitor controller, is the signal path 100% analogue, or does it pass through some AD/DA conversion?

[bcwiz]

D-command! Learn what it can do and you'll never look back. I would suggest making a pull-out keyboard tray under it so that you can get the unit closer when you're just mixing. No other controller puts the things you need most right in front of you. My 0.02 cents.
Yeah, Icon. There are some good deals around if you look. However Avid trashed trade-ins to keep them off the streets.:eek:

[YYR123]

Yeah, Icon. There are some good deals around if you look. However Avid trashed trade-ins to keep them off the streets.:eek:


IF this is true would be sad, the marketing department must know some people will never upgrade, just call them factory repacks and resell them

[Tom Graham]

Tom, if you don't use the AVB interface, but just use the S3 as a monitor controller, is the signal path 100% analogue, or does it pass through some AD/DA conversion?

The monitor section is the AVB interface so you are using it as an A/D and D/A then.

[Will Russell]

D-command! Learn what it can do and you'll never look back. I would suggest making a pull-out keyboard tray under it so that you can get the unit closer when you're just mixing. No other controller puts the things you need most right in front of you. My 0.02 cents.

This discussion makes it clear that Avid will never sell me another controller. My D-Command is perfect, and was priced so that a mid size commercial music studio could justify the investment. When the Pro Tools software no longer supports it, I will freeze my studio at that version of ProTools and keep making records with it as is.

The new S6 is priced way above my market, clearly targeted toward corporate post facilities who still make money, and to whom paying $1000 a year for a subscription/maintenance plan is no big deal.

Avid is chasing the money, which they need to do to survive. Too bad folks like me get left behind.

[Drew Mazurek]

This discussion makes it clear that Avid will never sell me another controller. My D-Command is perfect, and was priced so that a mid size commercial music studio could justify the investment. When the Pro Tools software no longer supports it, I will freeze my studio at that version of ProTools and keep making records with it as is.

The new S6 is priced way above my market, clearly targeted toward corporate post facilities who still make money, and to whom paying $1000 a year for a subscription/maintenance plan is no big deal.

Avid is chasing the money, which they need to do to survive. Too bad folks like me get left behind.


Summed up perfectly!!

[albee1952]

S3 is a dandy looking controller, but the AVB portion is Mac-only, so Windows users get the short end of that stick.:o

[YYR123]

The videos I saw at first with the S3 weren't as impressive as these..... JKomar rocking them again. (1 of 6) and yes makes me want to drop some more cash......

http://youtu.be/1ErEGaZG0VU

[Barry Johns]

The videos I saw at first with the S3 weren't as impressive as these..... JKomar rocking them again. (1 of 6) and yes makes me want to drop some more cash......

http://youtu.be/1ErEGaZG0VU

Still does not hold a candle to a D-Command👍

[Barry Johns]

This discussion makes it clear that Avid will never sell me another controller. My D-Command is perfect, and was priced so that a mid size commercial music studio could justify the investment. When the Pro Tools software no longer supports it, I will freeze my studio at that version of ProTools and keep making records with it as is.

The new S6 is priced way above my market, clearly targeted toward corporate post facilities who still make money, and to whom paying $1000 a year for a subscription/maintenance plan is no big deal.

Avid is chasing the money, which they need to do to survive. Too bad folks like me get left behind.

As much as I agree with you, you can bet Avid will do everything they can to brick the D-Command as soon as they can! Want to know the future, look in the past. My only concern is considering Avid's direction, the only way we are likely to be looking is in that past, sad, but seems to be true.

[YYR123]

I just jumped to PT12.2HD and my pro control doesn't work anymore - hate to see it go, really liked that unit.....

I bet I can find a D Command on the cheap in the next year....(don't really want to wait that long but, what can I do) S3's won't drop much in price for the next 2/3 years

[SeviCraft]

if you have a feature release for the S3, you get that, but if you need PT 12 to implement that feature, you will not get an updated PT version. You can use that new S3 feature on other DAWs that support that feature. You probably will have to update to a new version of that DAW as well. I am sure that will cost money too.

[Barry Johns]

I just jumped to PT12.2HD and my pro control doesn't work anymore - hate to see it go, really liked that unit.....

I bet I can find a D Command on the cheap in the next year....(don't really want to wait that long but, what can I do) S3's won't drop much in price for the next 2/3 years

They are easily had for around 3500.

[YYR123]

Problem is I can get a D command for less.....and if I wait a little bit, I bet I can score a killer deal on the D

[Barry Johns]

Problem is I can get a D command for less.....and if I wait a little bit, I bet I can score a killer deal on the D

That's the plan for me too before the end of the year!

[jacko]

I made a video showing eq and dynamics plugin control on D-Command with some comments regarding missing functionality in Eucon. Take a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjZxGM2pyU

[Wall2Wall]

As much as I agree with you, you can bet Avid will do everything they can to brick the D-Command as soon as they can! Want to know the future, look in the past. My only concern is considering Avid's direction, the only way we are likely to be looking is in that past, sad, but seems to be true.

That's a little unfair. They stopped selling the original blue in 2009 and kept up support until Jan 1st of 2015. I would get a Black (ES) anyway. There's a reason why the blues are much cheaper. The Black (ES) is still supported until August 1st 2019. More than enough time to get your return on investment. ES Main used w/ X-Mon a little more than a new S3.

[Drew Mazurek]

That's a little unfair. They stopped selling the original blue in 2009 and kept up support until Jan 1st of 2015. I would get a Black (ES) anyway. There's a reason why the blues are much cheaper. The Black (ES) is still supported until August 1st 2019. More than enough time to get your return on investment. ES Main used w/ X-Mon a little more than a new S3.


FYI, the blues and blacks use the EXACT same software profile and will continue to work for the same amount of time. Parts however, are a different story although they probably share most of those as well.

[puffin]

If you are looking, I have a D Command ES main unit available in the Buy and Sell section....

[YYR123]

If you are looking, I have a D Command ES main unit available in the Buy and Sell section....

you might want to bump that thread, b/c I just looked and it's not showing up.

[YYR123]

I made a video showing eq and dynamics plugin control on D-Command with some comments regarding missing functionality in Eucon. Take a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjZxGM2pyU

really nice....thank you for that.

[zedhed]

Avid is chasing the money, which they need to do to survive. Too bad folks like me get left behind.

Summed up perfectly!!

Problem for Avid is, when too many get left behind it adds up to a lot of lost revenue.