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mrcashback
02-08-2015, 05:22 PM
Howdy....
Just looking for everyones opinions on best practice recording when it comes to the zildjian gen 16's on an electric kit.

I know plenty of you will tell me they arent great for recording and to go buy some better cymbals (I have a kit of aax's, but want to see what can be done with these), but that's not really the info I'm looking for... What I'm after, is, when recording with gen 16's:

- Do you record straight from the zildjian DSP output
- Do you run the pickups direct to your interface first on individual tracks, and then back through the zildjian DSP before returning to a final track to record both wet and dry signals for "re-amping" later?
- Do you use a traditional overhead setup and record the raw sound with mics?
- Do you instead mic the speakers after effects and amping like one may do for a guitar track?

I've only just got the gen 16's, and bareley even set them up yet, but, they're unbeleivably better to play than any electric cymbal ive used.
first thought tells me that running the pickups to the interface before the DSP would provide for the most options and flexibility to get a good and changeable sound? But then I wonder, how is power for the blue LED light on the pickups being handled and what impact/limitations does that create?? Do i run phantom power from my interface to the pickups, and am i going to break anything plugging my interfaces outputs to the (im presuming) powered pickup inputs on the zildjian dsp given that that's not what it was designed for?

The thought of running overheads to a quiet cymbal on an electric kit gives me thoughts of picking up too much pad and stick noise on the track

Theres always sample replacement options, in which case what would y'all use for triggering these to get the most dynamic out of them (although stripping away the natural dynamic does seem to defeat the purpose of getting the gen 16s in the first place)

If someone from zildjian reads this: Usb output of the dry signals would make a nice revision in the next edition, as well as trigger velocities on each track would make for some extended possibilities

What do you guys do/reccomend/think on the matter? I'm quite interested to hear everyone elses thoughts

Bill Denton
02-08-2015, 07:03 PM
From what I read a while back, you cannot plug the cymbals directly into an interface...you must use the DSP unit...however, I don't remember why.

People do all sorts of strange things these days, but why are you concerned about overheads? Originally they were only intended to catch the cymbals...whatever bleed occurred was generally not considered a "good" thing.

But, if you're trying to get some sort of ambience or vibe out of the overheads you're probably going to have to fake it some how.

But, however you deal with the cymbals, please post back and let us know how it works...I've considered picking up a Gen 16 set sometime...

musicman691
02-10-2015, 05:28 AM
Howdy....
Just looking for everyones opinions on best practice recording when it comes to the zildjian gen 16's on an electric kit.

I know plenty of you will tell me they arent great for recording and to go buy some better cymbals (I have a kit of aax's, but want to see what can be done with these), but that's not really the info I'm looking for... What I'm after, is, when recording with gen 16's:

- Do you record straight from the zildjian DSP output
- Do you run the pickups direct to your interface first on individual tracks, and then back through the zildjian DSP before returning to a final track to record both wet and dry signals for "re-amping" later?
- Do you use a traditional overhead setup and record the raw sound with mics?
- Do you instead mic the speakers after effects and amping like one may do for a guitar track?

I've only just got the gen 16's, and bareley even set them up yet, but, they're unbeleivably better to play than any electric cymbal ive used.
first thought tells me that running the pickups to the interface before the DSP would provide for the most options and flexibility to get a good and changeable sound? But then I wonder, how is power for the blue LED light on the pickups being handled and what impact/limitations does that create?? Do i run phantom power from my interface to the pickups, and am i going to break anything plugging my interfaces outputs to the (im presuming) powered pickup inputs on the zildjian dsp given that that's not what it was designed for?

The thought of running overheads to a quiet cymbal on an electric kit gives me thoughts of picking up too much pad and stick noise on the track

Theres always sample replacement options, in which case what would y'all use for triggering these to get the most dynamic out of them (although stripping away the natural dynamic does seem to defeat the purpose of getting the gen 16s in the first place)

If someone from zildjian reads this: Usb output of the dry signals would make a nice revision in the next edition, as well as trigger velocities on each track would make for some extended possibilities

What do you guys do/reccomend/think on the matter? I'm quite interested to hear everyone elses thoughts
You're going to need the dsp box so take your audio output from there.

As far as using traditional overhead mics on these along with the rest of your e-kit? Don't do it for the reasons you cite. E-kit pads can be quite loud as a result of the sticks hitting the pads and the Gen16's don't lend well to overhead mic techniques.

But you're on the right track with a hybrid kit with the Gen16's and whatever is the rest of your setup. One of the best composite sounds I've heard out of that kind of setup was Gen16's along with a Roland TD20 e-kit (not using the Roland cymbal pads). But I wouldn't totally ignore the e-kit cymbals if you can reassign them to trigger other sounds than just cymbals. This would allow for adding percussion pieces to your kit without buying more triggers (or you could even get a quasi-Neil Peart setup this way - he actually uses a Roland TD20 along with his DW acoustic kit).

Bill Denton
02-10-2015, 11:58 AM
You're going to need the dsp box so take your audio output from there.

As far as using traditional overhead mics on these along with the rest of your e-kit? Don't do it for the reasons you cite. E-kit pads can be quite loud as a result of the sticks hitting the pads and the Gen16's don't lend well to overhead mic techniques.

But you're on the right track with a hybrid kit with the Gen16's and whatever is the rest of your setup. One of the best composite sounds I've heard out of that kind of setup was Gen16's along with a Roland TD20 e-kit (not using the Roland cymbal pads). But I wouldn't totally ignore the e-kit cymbals if you can reassign them to trigger other sounds than just cymbals. This would allow for adding percussion pieces to your kit without buying more triggers (or you could even get a quasi-Neil Peart setup this way - he actually uses a Roland TD20 along with his DW acoustic kit).

Gen16's along with a Roland TD20

That's what I was thinking in terms of if I could ever afford it.

I was also thinking of using the Roland cymbals for stuff like cowbells or tambourines or some other percussion...

musicman691
02-10-2015, 04:49 PM
Gen16's along with a Roland TD20

That's what I was thinking in terms of if I could ever afford it.

I was also thinking of using the Roland cymbals for stuff like cowbells or tambourines or some other percussion...
That's what I was getting at with my later comments. Could make for one funky kit. I haven't tried out a TD30 yet (successor to the TD20).

You know what's really strange is an e-kit is WAY more expensive than most acoustic kits. I could get a real nice custom DW acoustic Collector's series kit for what a TD30 costs. ;)

Bill Denton
02-10-2015, 05:46 PM
That's what I was getting at with my later comments. Could make for one funky kit. I haven't tried out a TD30 yet (successor to the TD20).

You know what's really strange is an e-kit is WAY more expensive than most acoustic kits. I could get a real nice custom DW acoustic Collector's series kit for what a TD30 costs. ;)

I've noticed on their last couple of releases Roland seems to be offering the extremely expensive kit as a "road" kit, with the next step down being touted as a "studio" kit.

I know the hardware and other pieces are a little bit different, but for me I'm sure the second tier kit would be fine for my studio...

musicman691
02-11-2015, 04:40 AM
I've noticed on their last couple of releases Roland seems to be offering the extremely expensive kit as a "road" kit, with the next step down being touted as a "studio" kit.

I know the hardware and other pieces are a little bit different, but for me I'm sure the second tier kit would be fine for my studio...
The only real differences are in the cymbal pads and the rack and there's one less 'floor tom' pad. Actually Roland does not tout either TD30 kit for a specific use but rather suitable for both stage or recording. And don't forget Roland has a bunch of different ekits available.

There is one thing I don't like about the Roland TD30 system - the wiring harness is inside the rack tubes which makes it difficult to customize the setup to one's needs or preferences or to use a Gibraltar rack with all it's accessories. I'd like to have 4 rack toms but offset to the drummer's left and the ride cymbal where the low pitch rack tom normally sits ala Neil Peart. Roland brain has the extra inputs but I'd have to scrap the harness and build my own as well as figure out how to mount the extra 2 rack toms. Used to be one could buy the rack/harness and electronics/pads apart from each other but I don't think that can be done anymore.

mrcashback
02-14-2015, 05:09 PM
I'm actually combining an old 8pce pearl export kit that I'm in the process of converting to mesh heads and triggers, with a cheapo electric kit and a ddrum ddti/alesis i/o... Skinning it all in a nice new wrap so it looks the part... The original electric pads I'm retaining for bongos/congas/roto toms type sounds, and the cheap cymbal pads will become my claves/cowbells etc percussion...
Thats all to be fed into BfD3

The big downer with the gen 16dsp is it only outputs one channel, (well, one stereo channel), so once its recorded from that output, theres no way to increase the high hat in the mix later for example independantly of the other cymbals, without resorting to some creative options.

So, if the direct mics/zildjian pickups signals were recorded raw to the daw, before being outputed to the DSP, and then returned from the dsp on another single channel for playback after in the mix, I retain the most mixing options later, and just use the dsp as an outboard pluggin/effects processor like i do with the eleven rack.

My only concern is that I break something by hooking it up this way with regard to power supplies on the line as the dsp is obviously sending power out to the mics, and Im not sure how that will be handled by the interface, or the dsp if I connect the dsp's 'ins' from my 003's 'outs', or, for that matter how the pickups will go on 48v phantom power from my 003's mic inputs.
I could obviously go buy 4x more dsps, run one cymbal per dsp, and each dsp then into its own track, but, for obvious reasons, that just seems silly!
Documentarion is rather thin in this regard given its not how it was built to be connected. Has anyone out there fried thier equipment, or been successfull connecting things in this manner before i start experimenting?

Bill Denton
02-14-2015, 07:31 PM
I'm actually combining an old 8pce pearl export kit that I'm in the process of converting to mesh heads and triggers, with a cheapo electric kit and a ddrum ddti/alesis i/o... Skinning it all in a nice new wrap so it looks the part... The original electric pads I'm retaining for bongos/congas/roto toms type sounds, and the cheap cymbal pads will become my claves/cowbells etc percussion...
Thats all to be fed into BfD3

The big downer with the gen 16dsp is it only outputs one channel, (well, one stereo channel), so once its recorded from that output, theres no way to increase the high hat in the mix later for example independantly of the other cymbals, without resorting to some creative options.

So, if the direct mics/zildjian pickups signals were recorded raw to the daw, before being outputed to the DSP, and then returned from the dsp on another single channel for playback after in the mix, I retain the most mixing options later, and just use the dsp as an outboard pluggin/effects processor like i do with the eleven rack.

My only concern is that I break something by hooking it up this way with regard to power supplies on the line as the dsp is obviously sending power out to the mics, and Im not sure how that will be handled by the interface, or the dsp if I connect the dsp's 'ins' from my 003's 'outs', or, for that matter how the pickups will go on 48v phantom power from my 003's mic inputs.
I could obviously go buy 4x more dsps, run one cymbal per dsp, and each dsp then into its own track, but, for obvious reasons, that just seems silly!
Documentarion is rather thin in this regard given its not how it was built to be connected. Has anyone out there fried thier equipment, or been successfull connecting things in this manner before i start experimenting?

I'm so old that the first few sessions I did I had one mic hanging above my head...

But, were I running the show at Zildjian, I would put together a 6-channel DSP box with direct outs.

Just my opinion, but I think Zildjian dropped the ball by not offering something like this...

musicman691
02-15-2015, 07:53 AM
I'm actually combining an old 8pce pearl export kit that I'm in the process of converting to mesh heads and triggers, with a cheapo electric kit and a ddrum ddti/alesis i/o... Skinning it all in a nice new wrap so it looks the part... The original electric pads I'm retaining for bongos/congas/roto toms type sounds, and the cheap cymbal pads will become my claves/cowbells etc percussion...
Thats all to be fed into BfD3

The big downer with the gen 16dsp is it only outputs one channel, (well, one stereo channel), so once its recorded from that output, theres no way to increase the high hat in the mix later for example independantly of the other cymbals, without resorting to some creative options.

So, if the direct mics/zildjian pickups signals were recorded raw to the daw, before being outputed to the DSP, and then returned from the dsp on another single channel for playback after in the mix, I retain the most mixing options later, and just use the dsp as an outboard pluggin/effects processor like i do with the eleven rack.

My only concern is that I break something by hooking it up this way with regard to power supplies on the line as the dsp is obviously sending power out to the mics, and Im not sure how that will be handled by the interface, or the dsp if I connect the dsp's 'ins' from my 003's 'outs', or, for that matter how the pickups will go on 48v phantom power from my 003's mic inputs.
I could obviously go buy 4x more dsps, run one cymbal per dsp, and each dsp then into its own track, but, for obvious reasons, that just seems silly!
Documentarion is rather thin in this regard given its not how it was built to be connected. Has anyone out there fried thier equipment, or been successfull connecting things in this manner before i start experimenting?
I wouldn't try what you're proposing unless you don't mind taking an expensive chance and frying things. Not to mention doing what you're doing would void the warranty. There's more going on with that dsp box than you think. You're just going to have to work out the mix as you play, that's all.

mrcashback
02-17-2015, 03:11 PM
Well, I emailed Zildjian for some first hand info, and I think theyre just making things up: heres what they said:

"Hi Rob,
Connecting the pickups to anything but the DCP will cause damage to them and anything else in the chain. At this time it isn't possible to record separate channels for each cymbal. Volume, panning, and tones need to be set in the DCP before recording them.
Regards,
Chris"

Yet, heres a review for the pickups on amazon:
"I used this as a condenser cymbal microphone.
By R. READ - January 10, 2015
Amazon Verified Purchase
I used this as a condenser cymbal microphone supplying it with phantom power through my mixer board using a Hosa XVM105 Right Angle 3.5mm St M to XLR M (5 Feet) cable.
I donít use it with a GEN16 system. It works well without picking up sounds outside of the cymbal. The cymbal bell sounds great through it.
You must use the GEN16 cymbal felts and washers-stems (Sold Separately) to mount it correctly without picking up extra noise.
You need to be able to roll off the 500 to 80hz on your mixer input.
The ride and crash both work fine for live use with sometimes getting a slight phase that is not at all unpleasant or unnatural sounding in the cymbal wash.
This is not a supported or recommended use from the manufacture, but works great for my needs."

Zildjian are telling me that connecting the pickups to anything else will damage both the pickups and anything else in the chain, which makes absoluteley no sence because the pickups do not send any power to anything, and even uf they were simply a short circuit it still wouldnt break my equipment...
They didnt even respond about connecting the dcp for reamping so i've emailed back to clarify, but I dont think i'm going to get any help from them in this regard, the first response gives me the impression they only want the product used how they intended on it being used (for whatever reason?)

Bill Denton
02-17-2015, 07:23 PM
Well, I emailed Zildjian for some first hand info, and I think theyre just making things up: heres what they said:

"Hi Rob,
Connecting the pickups to anything but the DCP will cause damage to them and anything else in the chain. At this time it isn't possible to record separate channels for each cymbal. Volume, panning, and tones need to be set in the DCP before recording them.
Regards,
Chris"

Yet, heres a review for the pickups on amazon:
"I used this as a condenser cymbal microphone.
By R. READ - January 10, 2015
Amazon Verified Purchase
I used this as a condenser cymbal microphone supplying it with phantom power through my mixer board using a Hosa XVM105 Right Angle 3.5mm St M to XLR M (5 Feet) cable.
I donít use it with a GEN16 system. It works well without picking up sounds outside of the cymbal. The cymbal bell sounds great through it.
You must use the GEN16 cymbal felts and washers-stems (Sold Separately) to mount it correctly without picking up extra noise.
You need to be able to roll off the 500 to 80hz on your mixer input.
The ride and crash both work fine for live use with sometimes getting a slight phase that is not at all unpleasant or unnatural sounding in the cymbal wash.
This is not a supported or recommended use from the manufacture, but works great for my needs."

Zildjian are telling me that connecting the pickups to anything else will damage both the pickups and anything else in the chain, which makes absoluteley no sence because the pickups do not send any power to anything, and even uf they were simply a short circuit it still wouldnt break my equipment...
They didnt even respond about connecting the dcp for reamping so i've emailed back to clarify, but I dont think i'm going to get any help from them in this regard, the first response gives me the impression they only want the product used how they intended on it being used (for whatever reason?)

... they only want the product used how they intended on it being used ...

Why is that a problem?

Some of the tools we use are amenable to experimentation, some are not.

For example, while the 1176 compressor was not designed to be used in "all buttons in" mode, it doesn't hurt anything to do it, and it has become a popular way of using it.

But, when trying to find a "new" sound, connecting 240 volts to the phantom power inputs on a vintage U87 is probably not a good idea.

But, it's your gear, and you can use it however you wish to...

musicman691
02-18-2015, 04:59 AM
Well, I emailed Zildjian for some first hand info, and I think theyre just making things up: heres what they said:

"Hi Rob,
Connecting the pickups to anything but the DCP will cause damage to them and anything else in the chain. At this time it isn't possible to record separate channels for each cymbal. Volume, panning, and tones need to be set in the DCP before recording them.
Regards,
Chris"

Yet, heres a review for the pickups on amazon:
"I used this as a condenser cymbal microphone.
By R. READ - January 10, 2015
Amazon Verified Purchase
I used this as a condenser cymbal microphone supplying it with phantom power through my mixer board using a Hosa XVM105 Right Angle 3.5mm St M to XLR M (5 Feet) cable.
I donít use it with a GEN16 system. It works well without picking up sounds outside of the cymbal. The cymbal bell sounds great through it.
You must use the GEN16 cymbal felts and washers-stems (Sold Separately) to mount it correctly without picking up extra noise.
You need to be able to roll off the 500 to 80hz on your mixer input.
The ride and crash both work fine for live use with sometimes getting a slight phase that is not at all unpleasant or unnatural sounding in the cymbal wash.
This is not a supported or recommended use from the manufacture, but works great for my needs."

Zildjian are telling me that connecting the pickups to anything else will damage both the pickups and anything else in the chain, which makes absoluteley no sence because the pickups do not send any power to anything, and even uf they were simply a short circuit it still wouldnt break my equipment...
They didnt even respond about connecting the dcp for reamping so i've emailed back to clarify, but I dont think i'm going to get any help from them in this regard, the first response gives me the impression they only want the product used how they intended on it being used (for whatever reason?)I can see Zildjian's point and it's something I mentioned earlier. If you want to fry the system then don't expect Zildjian to make good on a warranty if you go outside their system and the way it's supposed to be used. Just because some yahoo posted a review on Amazon that he did something with his system and it worked for him doesn't mean it's right to do. He took a big chance and if he ever expects warranty repair then he's not going to get it.

But hey - it's your money if you want to throw it away on experimentation.

mrcashback
02-22-2015, 05:18 PM
... they only want the product used how they intended on it being used ...

Why is that a problem?

Some of the tools we use are amenable to experimentation, some are not.

For example, while the 1176 compressor was not designed to be used in "all buttons in" mode, it doesn't hurt anything to do it, and it has become a popular way of using it.

But, when trying to find a "new" sound, connecting 240 volts to the phantom power inputs on a vintage U87 is probably not a good idea.

But, it's your gear, and you can use it however you wish to...

The problem is instead of telling me that they are unsure or dont support such uses, they (for whatever reason) provide me with mistruths instead.... The pickups are just cndensor mics with a light in them.... Its not going to damage my equipment by connecting them to a mixer, interface, whatever... This part was already a given u my eyes, and I have since tested it to be fine, yet zildjian say "cant be done".... What i really needed to know from them was how power and signals were handled to/from the digital cymbal processor so that the pre-recorded cymbal signals can be mixed & processed later.... They didnt comment at all to that, and given that thier replies regarding the pickups were simply false, I can only take what they say now with a grain of salt... So yeah, I trust the amazon reviews a little more than what should have been reliable info from the source, so, its back to the forums for me to see if
I can find someone with more knowledge of this unit.

musicman691
02-23-2015, 04:27 AM
The problem is instead of telling me that they are unsure or dont support such uses, they (for whatever reason) provide me with mistruths instead.... The pickups are just cndensor mics with a light in them.... Its not going to damage my equipment by connecting them to a mixer, interface, whatever... This part was already a given u my eyes, and I have since tested it to be fine, yet zildjian say "cant be done".... What i really needed to know from them was how power and signals were handled to/from the digital cymbal processor so that the pre-recorded cymbal signals can be mixed & processed later.... They didnt comment at all to that, and given that thier replies regarding the pickups were simply false, I can only take what they say now with a grain of salt... So yeah, I trust the amazon reviews a little more than what should have been reliable info from the source, so, its back to the forums for me to see if
I can find someone with more knowledge of this unit.
Zildjian isn't going to tell you how they do what they do - they don't know you or what you may do with it. They're not going to let loose with their design secrets. If you can back engineer that then it's on you if things go south and your hardware fries itself.

Face it - if you try your hack don't be surprised if it doesn't work and you blow things up.

mrcashback
03-01-2015, 04:15 AM
Zildjian isn't going to tell you how they do what they do - they don't know you or what you may do with it. They're not going to let loose with their design secrets. If you can back engineer that then it's on you if things go south and your hardware fries itself.

Face it - if you try your hack don't be surprised if it doesn't work and you blow things up.

lets be real, the info I asked of them hardly meets the definition of 'design sectrets'... lol, I was only seeking info relating to what kind of voltage, impedance, etc etc... you know, the stuff that comes labled on the box of every other electrical and or audio product in the universe.

I'm sure any company looking to copy the 'trade secrets' could find these details out with a multimeter.... and obviously someone there at zildjian would have to know...
It just urks me that the info I sought wasn't provided direct from the horses mouth (and even more so they mislead me)....
I guess gone are the days where a consumer is encouraged to be informed about the equipment they buy

musicman691
03-01-2015, 05:08 AM
lets be real, the info I asked of them hardly meets the definition of 'design sectrets'... lol, I was only seeking info relating to what kind of voltage, impedance, etc etc... you know, the stuff that comes labled on the box of every other electrical and or audio product in the universe.

I'm sure any company looking to copy the 'trade secrets' could find these details out with a multimeter.... and obviously someone there at zildjian would have to know...
It just urks me that the info I sought wasn't provided direct from the horses mouth (and even more so they mislead me)....
I guess gone are the days where a consumer is encouraged to be informed about the equipment they buy
Zildjian didn't and isn't misleading you. No manufacturer is going to give you info on how to use their system outside of their recommended configuration. If they did they would open themselves up to all kinds of legal issues should you fry your equipment or even worse should you hurt yourself, someone else, or burn the place down. Zildjian doesn't list what you want because it's not necessary knowledge to make the system work the way it was designed. However, as I pointed out, if you want to hack around then it's upon you if things go kaput. Impedance isn't an easy thing to work with; it's not straight resistance but also inductance and reactance.

Take it from someone who's worked on and designed a lot of electronics - it ain't easy sniffing out how a circuit works with just a DMM. Especially with today's circuitry! Sure you might find certain voltages but you'll never get a true look at how something is working. DMM's are great at reading DC voltages and AC voltage to a limited degree. You're going to need an oscilloscope and the knowledge of how to make sense out of what you see on the screen. You're also going to need detailed schematics along with details on what's in the chips used.

Full disclosure - I've done fairly well making certain hardware do things it was never designed for but then again I have the knowledge to make it work and I also realize that I'm going beyond what a manufacturer had in mind for said piece of equipment. I realize that it's my fault if I kill the hardware; I also realize no manufacturer is going to help me in my quest for either info on the circuitry or if I fry it. And further disclosure - I have fried things when mucking about with experimentation. You ain't seen nothing until you drop a meter probe inside a chassis with it turned on and connected to AC mains. Between the smell and parts going every which way - it's a mess.:eek:

mrcashback
03-02-2015, 04:10 PM
Zildjian didn't and isn't misleading you. No manufacturer is going to give you info on how to use their system outside of their recommended configuration.

Actually, yes they are.... They blatantly state the pickups cannot be used without the DCP or I will fry my interface and my pickups.... This is flat out lie, they work just fine used as simple microphones with ordinary cymbals....

Weather they told me that because they didnt know, or because they dont want people experimenting we'll never know, but, it deffinitley is missleding.

And actually.... Most manufacturers that sell products with plugs, be they outputs, inputs, or both, (that are designed to be connected and disconnected by the end user), will provide details of what is required of the incomming ports, and what is heading out of the outgoing ports.... Most manufacturers have a 'reccomended' setup which involves using all the manufacturers branded gear... How often do you see muso's using the manufacturers 'reccomended' setup though?? I'd say most of the time, audio setups are a mix n match between all sorts of gear to find what works best, and most manufacturers aid where they can by providing basic details of how to make it work best... Zildjian's not worked in the technology industry before, they press tin lids into cymbals, and buying thier usual products, I dont need to know anything more about it then how it sounds, but, with a gen 16 pack (especially considering they sell components seperatley) it certainly wouldnt hurt thier sales to provide some consumer level info and accurate customer service about the inputs and outputs.

Like I saide prior... A 'we dont know' or even a 'we dont want you to know' would have been more appreciated than the innacurate fib i got

musicman691
03-02-2015, 05:09 PM
Actually, yes they are.... They blatantly state the pickups cannot be used without the DCP or I will fry my interface and my pickups.... This is flat out lie, they work just fine used as simple microphones with ordinary cymbals....

Weather they told me that because they didnt know, or because they dont want people experimenting we'll never know, but, it deffinitley is missleding.

And actually.... Most manufacturers that sell products with plugs, be they outputs, inputs, or both, (that are designed to be connected and disconnected by the end user), will provide details of what is required of the incomming ports, and what is heading out of the outgoing ports.... Most manufacturers have a 'reccomended' setup which involves using all the manufacturers branded gear... How often do you see muso's using the manufacturers 'reccomended' setup though?? I'd say most of the time, audio setups are a mix n match between all sorts of gear to find what works best, and most manufacturers aid where they can by providing basic details of how to make it work best... Zildjian's not worked in the technology industry before, they press tin lids into cymbals, and buying thier usual products, I dont need to know anything more about it then how it sounds, but, with a gen 16 pack (especially considering they sell components seperatley) it certainly wouldnt hurt thier sales to provide some consumer level info and accurate customer service about the inputs and outputs.

Like I saide prior... A 'we dont know' or even a 'we dont want you to know' would have been more appreciated than the innacurate fib i got
When are you going to get it through your head - there's no use in pursuing Zildjian or berating them for doing what they did. They are NOT going to tell you how to use their stuff in any other way than for that for which it was designed. They did not give you a lie.

Like I pointed out if they give you info for using their stuff in any other way than that for which it was designed then they open themselves up for all kinds of legal troubles. But I guess that doesn't bother you. If you want to take the chance on frying your system then go ahead but don't blame Zildjian if/when it fails. And don't expect warranty repair either.

Mixing and matching outboard gear is one thing but splitting up a system doing what you want to do is another. None of the Gen16 stuff was designed to do that. It's designed to work together AS A SYSTEM. Think of it this way - someone sees your setup and tries it and fry's their gear and goes to Zildjian and they're told 'tough luck - you used it in a non-approved/designed way and it died. You want it fixed - it's on your dime, but warranty coverage is null and void on your unit'. Trust me when I say I've been on both sides of that kind of deal and if you're the customer it sucks but them's the breaks.

Go ahead - try it your way but remember that Zildjian isn't Burger King (their old slogan - have it your way at Burger King (US hamburger chain))

Bill Denton
03-02-2015, 05:19 PM
Actually, yes they are.... They blatantly state the pickups cannot be used without the DCP or I will fry my interface and my pickups.... This is flat out lie, they work just fine used as simple microphones with ordinary cymbals....

Weather they told me that because they didnt know, or because they dont want people experimenting we'll never know, but, it deffinitley is missleding.

And actually.... Most manufacturers that sell products with plugs, be they outputs, inputs, or both, (that are designed to be connected and disconnected by the end user), will provide details of what is required of the incomming ports, and what is heading out of the outgoing ports.... Most manufacturers have a 'reccomended' setup which involves using all the manufacturers branded gear... How often do you see muso's using the manufacturers 'reccomended' setup though?? I'd say most of the time, audio setups are a mix n match between all sorts of gear to find what works best, and most manufacturers aid where they can by providing basic details of how to make it work best... Zildjian's not worked in the technology industry before, they press tin lids into cymbals, and buying thier usual products, I dont need to know anything more about it then how it sounds, but, with a gen 16 pack (especially considering they sell components seperatley) it certainly wouldnt hurt thier sales to provide some consumer level info and accurate customer service about the inputs and outputs.

Like I saide prior... A 'we dont know' or even a 'we dont want you to know' would have been more appreciated than the innacurate fib i got

Give it up, man...it should be obvious you aren't going to find any support here.

I just read the Quick Start guide for Gen16, it shows you how to put the parts together and where everything plugs in. That is all you, or anyone else, needs to know to properly use the product.

If you want to use the product in a manner other than intended, that's your issue. If Zildjian told you something you didn't like, that's between you and them.

This is a board where users voluntarily provide support for Avid products...as Gen16 doesn't require any Avid products to work, allow me to politely request you take this issue elsewhere.

Thanks...

musicman691
03-02-2015, 05:30 PM
Give it up, man...it should be obvious you aren't going to find any support here.

I just read the Quick Start guide for Gen16, it shows you how to put the parts together and where everything plugs in. That is all you, or anyone else, needs to know to properly use the product.

If you want to use the product in a manner other than intended, that's your issue. If Zildjian told you something you didn't like, that's between you and them.

This is a board where users voluntarily provide support for Avid products...as Gen16 doesn't require any Avid products to work, allow me to politely request you take this issue elsewhere.

Thanks...
Bill:
He's not going to give up on this until he fries his stuff. I suggest we don't feed the troll anymore than we already have. What ticks me off is I've given him several reasons to not expect help from Zildjian but he just doesn't realize that. He's taken this thread so far off the original topic it ain't even funny anymore and I pity the poor soul that started this thread in all good intentions and sees this. The Gen16's are a fantastic instrument when used the right way; I just wish one could expand the system to more than the small handful of pads the dsp box can use. Doing a Neil Peart-type rig just can't be done as is ;)

mrcashback
03-05-2015, 05:59 PM
Two people to address:
First, musicman; I understand zildjian are of no help, which is why im still on the forums... But... Dont tell me they didnt lie to me, because they did... They specifically advised that the pickups cannot be used without the dcp or it will damage the pickups and my other equipment... This is a lie, I have tested successfully, as have others accross internetsville.... It works fault free, this side of the chain is just a microphone with a light in it.
Im not expecting anyone to cover warranty in a non prescribed use environment, i never mentioned the words warranty, and, if I break something, that's my own stupid fault, which is why I am trying to inform myself as much as possible first to avoid that scenario and still achieve the desired outcome.
Telling me what goes in and out over the connections does not open them up to anything if they speak the facts, its just good customer sevice to do so.
And, for what its worth, I am the "poor soul who started this thread in all good intentions", so no, it didnt go off the topic I wanted to discuss untill you started telling me why I shouldnt bother asking a products manufacturer about thier own gear. So yea, I suggest you take your useless commentry elsewhere seen as this thread urks you so much, if you have no idea, and can be of no assistance, no problem, its not your mind I'm seeking info from.

Next, Bill;
Yes, It is obvious that Im not going to find any support here.... The people replying are too closed minded. Yes, if i want to use a product other than as intended, thats my issue, so, i seek info to solve my issue. Yes, i understand that gen 16's do not require avid products to work, but, seen as i record using avid software and interfaces which will make up part of the connection chain, (and I'm certain I'm not the only one who's considered such a setup configuration), I figured other avid forum users are a potential source of the information I seek seen as the forums here have proded me help in the past.. It is posted in the 'tips and tricks' section after all, and, given the subject of other postings, is hardly irrelavent, so I came seeking tips and tricks to maximise editability connecting my avid products with this equipment...
I hoped someone may have tried it already ahead of me, but, wasnt necessarily expecting difinitive answers.... I also wasnt expecting people to tell me not to bother asking or thinking outside the box... so, lesson learned


So, I await in hope that someone comes along here in the near future that can state difinitiveley what they did, or needed to buy to make it work, or, what they tried that didnt work, or else, if i discover a means myself, I'll update accordingly
If you just want to tell me why I shouldnt bother experimenting or seeking assistance though, I need not hear from you

musicman691
03-06-2015, 03:44 AM
Two people to address:
First, musicman; I understand zildjian are of no help, which is why im still on the forums... But... Dont tell me they didnt lie to me, because they did... They specifically advised that the pickups cannot be used without the dcp or it will damage the pickups and my other equipment... This is a lie, I have tested successfully, as have others accross internetsville.... It works fault free, this side of the chain is just a microphone with a light in it.
Im not expecting anyone to cover warranty in a non prescribed use environment, i never mentioned the words warranty, and, if I break something, that's my own stupid fault, which is why I am trying to inform myself as much as possible first to avoid that scenario and still achieve the desired outcome.
Telling me what goes in and out over the connections does not open them up to anything if they speak the facts, its just good customer sevice to do so.
And, for what its worth, I am the "poor soul who started this thread in all good intentions", so no, it didnt go off the topic I wanted to discuss untill you started telling me why I shouldnt bother asking a products manufacturer about thier own gear. So yea, I suggest you take your useless commentry elsewhere seen as this thread urks you so much, if you have no idea, and can be of no assistance, no problem, its not your mind I'm seeking info from.

Next, Bill;
Yes, It is obvious that Im not going to find any support here.... The people replying are too closed minded. Yes, if i want to use a product other than as intended, thats my issue, so, i seek info to solve my issue. Yes, i understand that gen 16's do not require avid products to work, but, seen as i record using avid software and interfaces which will make up part of the connection chain, (and I'm certain I'm not the only one who's considered such a setup configuration), I figured other avid forum users are a potential source of the information I seek seen as the forums here have proded me help in the past.. It is posted in the 'tips and tricks' section after all, and, given the subject of other postings, is hardly irrelavent, so I came seeking tips and tricks to maximise editability connecting my avid products with this equipment...
I hoped someone may have tried it already ahead of me, but, wasnt necessarily expecting difinitive answers.... I also wasnt expecting people to tell me not to bother asking or thinking outside the box... so, lesson learned


So, I await in hope that someone comes along here in the near future that can state difinitiveley what they did, or needed to buy to make it work, or, what they tried that didnt work, or else, if i discover a means myself, I'll update accordingly
If you just want to tell me why I shouldnt bother experimenting or seeking assistance though, I need not hear from you
You STILL don't get it do you?
Zildjian will NOT tell you how to use their system in any other way than how it was designed. You keep ignoring the legal liability they would leave themselves open to if they did. So they didn't lie. Oh - it's all over the internet that it works? And that makes it okay? You believe everything you read on the 'net? If it's all over the net than why are you here wasting your time, our time and the forum space?

Lastly you keep ignoring the fact that no one here is going to help you with this as this is NOT a Zildjian support forum.

If you want to experiment with your system and fry it - that's on your head. Don't expect the posters here or Zildjian tell you how to do what you want.