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SearingSounds
01-26-2015, 07:30 PM
I purchased Pro Tools 10 right before 11 came out. I think it was around April or May 2014. I was able to download Pro Tools 11 for free.

Can someone guide me to a link or explain what the cost of upgrading from Pro Tools 11 to 12 will be for me?

Thanks

Sugarnutz
01-26-2015, 08:10 PM
$199 support plan is yer' ticket here. Those of us who got in before the end of December got 15+ months, now it's only 12 from when you get the plan and I'm not sure that the support plan for 11 users is available yet as I upgraded from 9 to 11 with the support plan for $199. If you're not on the support plan the cost is probably $899 for a new license. Hurts don't it?

:D

Looks like this may be yer' support plan as it's a different stock # than the PT 9-10 upgrade plan fer' $199:

Pro Tools Software Upgrades with Annual Upgrade + Support Plan (http://shop.avid.com/ccrz__ProductDetails?viewState=DetailView&cartID=&sku=9511-65645-00&&store=shop)

SearingSounds
01-26-2015, 08:18 PM
So if I'm not currently on a support plan I will have to pay $899 to upgrade to PT12?

Sugarnutz
01-26-2015, 08:31 PM
Yep! That's the plan my man. (it's actually $899, I edited my earlier post) Or you could lease/rent it for like $50/month when those options arrive.

SearingSounds
01-26-2015, 08:44 PM
paying $50 a month doesn't make sense to me. I guess for some people it might.
I will probably stay in PT11 for now. I also use Logic Pro so maybe I will just start doing everything in there.

Sugarnutz
01-26-2015, 08:56 PM
Or get the support plan for $199 and get PT 12 and all the upgrades/updates to that. 12 is not supposed to be out for another few months from what I understand and you could wait to get on the support plan until then, The only limitation I've seen so far to get on a support plan is by the end of 2015.

SearingSounds
01-26-2015, 09:19 PM
Or get the support plan for $199 and get PT 12 and all the upgrades/updates to that. 12 is not supposed to be out for another few months from what I understand and you could wait to get on the support plan until then, The only limitation I've seen so far to get on a support plan is by the end of 2015.

Is that $199 annually?

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 01:48 AM
1) People buying an upgrade to PT11 now get 12 for free when it comes out,
2) Pro Tools 12 is not available yet,
3) You don't have to do anything yet,
4) You don't have to anything when Pro Tools 12 is released,
5) You do have to make a decision about upgrading Pro Tools by end of 2015,
6) The upgrade to PT12 costs $199,
7) The upgrade includes a renewable support plan at $199 annually,
8) If you don't upgrade, your PT licence will be stuck at PT11 unupgradable,

9) If you later decide you want a newer version of PT ...
a) You could to buy a new licence at $899,
b) Or you could 'rent' a licence, but if you stop renting it stops working,
b) You'll have two licences,
c) One able to run PT10/11,
d) The other able to run whatever is current at the time of purchase, plus possibly older versions (for example, when first available we've been told that the new licence bundle will include licences for 10, 11 and 12),
e) That new licence, which includes support plan, will also run any newer versions released while the support plan is active,
f) The same rules apply to that new licence regarding renewing the support plan, if you don't keep renewing it annually, it stops being upgradable.

JFreak
01-27-2015, 03:47 AM
The upgrade includes a renewable support plan at $199 annually

I have let myself understand that this is a deal you should really stick to, it is way cheaper than any rental model that I can imagine. With the information I have today -- if I had a standard PT, I would just get used to this.

However, I have only used HD systems for the last decade or so, which means there is no price list available for me at this time.

KV626
01-27-2015, 03:51 AM
Why isn't it mentioned somewhere on Avid site how much it will cost for PT11 owners? PT12 is around the corner and the upgrade/crossgrade plan is still only for PT 9 and 10. Surely Avid must have an idea how much they're going to ask us PT 11 owners...For now we just have to assume it's gonna be $199/$599, but they could at least say it explicitely.

JFreak
01-27-2015, 03:52 AM
HD pricing is not yet available, but standard PT should be pretty straight-forward. If you already have PT11, then you can buy the support plan, right?

KV626
01-27-2015, 04:08 AM
If you already have PT11, then you can buy the support plan, right?

I guess so, but I'm in no rush. In fact I don't know, my accound already showing that I have PT11, would it make sense to buy a PT 11 upgrade? Sounds silly...Yeah I know I would get the support plan, but since I've started using Pro Tools - which is now quite a few years- I never had to use an ASC/online/phone support even once so... It might be useful, but the only reason I will get on the plan is for Pro Tools, not for support...

Hopefully when PT12 is actually released, then the upgrade plan will officially include PT11...

Rosco1969
01-27-2015, 09:48 AM
So, (just so I'm understanding this correctly, I'm on PT11 btw) if, you've paid $199 before the end of 2015 for the support plan... you get all updates and/or upgrades of Protools, and you would pay this $199 annually and this would continue to operate this way (annually).

or...

If you DON'T have the $199 support plan in place before the end of 2015, and then decide to update/upgrade Protools, you will HAVE to purchase a new license @ $899?

Someone please tell me whether I'm understanding this right, or not...

Thanks

Rosco

gtomassetti
01-27-2015, 11:23 AM
So, I'm using an HDN system with OMNI that I've had since early 2013.

Am I correct in assuming that the cost for upgrading from HD11 to HD12 is not yet published? I've looked all over, but haven't found that information.

JFreak
01-27-2015, 11:26 AM
So, (just so I'm understanding this correctly, I'm on PT11 btw) if, you've paid $199 before the end of 2015 for the support plan... you get all updates and/or upgrades of Protools, and you would pay this $199 annually and this would continue to operate this way (annually).

or...

If you DON'T have the $199 support plan in place before the end of 2015, and then decide to update/upgrade Protools, you will HAVE to purchase a new license @ $899?

Someone please tell me whether I'm understanding this right, or not...

Thanks

Rosco

I have let myself understand that it is just like you said: either sign up for the annual 199 price tag or re-purchase the software when you need it again.

SearingSounds
01-27-2015, 12:21 PM
So, (just so I'm understanding this correctly, I'm on PT11 btw) if, you've paid $199 before the end of 2015 for the support plan... you get all updates and/or upgrades of Protools, and you would pay this $199 annually and this would continue to operate this way (annually).

or...

If you DON'T have the $199 support plan in place before the end of 2015, and then decide to update/upgrade Protools, you will HAVE to purchase a new license @ $899?

Someone please tell me whether I'm understanding this right, or not...

Thanks

Rosco

I would like to get this cleared up also.

nst7
01-27-2015, 12:46 PM
This is exactly right. You eitherbuy a new copy of Protools, or buy a hardware bundle that includes it (Mbox Pro, Eleven Rack, Protools Quartet/Duet). Or you can get on a month to month subscription, which works out to be more expensive.

nst7
01-27-2015, 12:50 PM
So, I'm using an HDN system with OMNI that I've had since early 2013.

Am I correct in assuming that the cost for upgrading from HD11 to HD12 is not yet published? I've looked all over, but haven't found that information.

The cost is $599, and gives you upgrades and support for a year. If you don't buy that every year, your license keeps working at the features it has, but can not be upgraded. If you want to jump back in later you either buy a new HD system, or get on a subscription/rental plan.

Rosco1969
01-27-2015, 01:09 PM
I would have thought that no matter when you decided to "opt in" it would cost you $199... whether its now, or in 2 years time!

This would mean that if I, in two years time decide I would like to upgrade my PT11 to PT12 (if 13 isn't out by then) then it would cost me $899!!??

That CANNOT be right.... doesn't make ANY sense.... when you compare the cost it was to upgrade from 9 to 10... or 10 to 11. I got a free upgrade from 9 to 10... but the upgrade price from 10 to 11 was around the £200 mark if I remember correctly. So, now it would be $899!.. Ye right!

I have no need to upgrade just yet, I paid my money and am entitled to all the updates etc to PT11.

I wish someone from Avid would pitch in here.

(If this is indeed the case then Logic Pro X here I come, lol)

gtomassetti
01-27-2015, 01:19 PM
The cost is $599, and gives you upgrades and support for a year. If you don't buy that every year, your license keeps working at the features it has, but can not be upgraded. If you want to jump back in later you either buy a new HD system, or get on a subscription/rental plan.

So, $600 a year for the privilege/pleasure of continuing to work in Pro Tools? That somewhat sucks.

I deal with my yearly Waves update plan and my monthly Adobe Creative Cloud subscription as it is.

I see that Steven Slate is offering a subscription option for his plugins as well, and I know at least one other DAW has moved to a subscription-based model, so obviously the bean-counters have decided that this is the wave of the future.

But I'm still old-fashioned enough that I'd prefer to buy the damned software and be done with it.

Now, if Avid would get together with Native Instruments and fixed whatever screwup had has caused me to not be able to use Guitar Rig 5 at all, well, at that point I'd say, "Sign me up."

SearingSounds
01-27-2015, 01:53 PM
I'm so confused!

nst7
01-27-2015, 02:11 PM
Guys, I'm just the messenger. If you don't believe me, read the FAQ on the website.

I agree that it's outrageous and stupid, and I hope a lawsuit can be brought against them.

DonaldM
01-27-2015, 02:31 PM
Well this part is confusing. I get that PT 11 users have until 12/31/15 to sign up for the new annual subscription plan. Fine.

So I read this is the FAQ:

Q. What is a perpetual license?
A. A "perpetual license" is a license that does not expire—you own the software. You get a perpetual license when you purchase a new Pro Tools or Pro Tools | HD system or Pro Tools software. New Pro Tools software purchases come with a one-year annual upgrade and support plan. After one year, you have the option of renewing your plan to continue receiving the latest features. If you choose not to renew, you can continue using your software indefinitely at the latest version you have, but will not be able to upgrade it at a later time.

Q. Will my Pro Tools perpetual license stop working at the end of the one-year upgrade and support plan period?
A. No, you can continue to use Pro Tools if you allow your upgrade and support plan to expire. However, if you want to continue receiving updates with new features, you will need to renew your plan before it expires or switch to a subscription. Pro Tools and Pro Tools | HD owners will have through the end of 2015 to get on an annual upgrade and support plan. If you don’t get on a plan, you will not be able to upgrade your software in the future.That seems clear enough...its a perpetual license and you'll always be able to use Pro Tools at your current version if you elect not to renew your subscription. But then there this a couple paragraphs on the FAQ later:

Q. What happens if I allow my Pro Tools subscription to lapse?
A. You will no longer be able to use Pro Tools after your subscription lapses. If your subscription has lapsed and you wish to continue using Pro Tools, simply start a new monthly or annual subscription.Huh? Didn't they just say that if you let your subscription lapse you can continue using your software, just not get upgrades and such? And now they say "No, let lapse and you're toast!"

Ummmm...which is it Avid? Please clarify??

Southsidemusic
01-27-2015, 02:42 PM
Well this part is confusing. I get that PT 11 users have until 12/31/15 to sign up for the new annual subscription plan. Fine.

So I read this is the FAQ:

That seems clear enough...its a perpetual license and you'll always be able to use Pro Tools at your current version if you elect not to renew your subscription. But then there this a couple paragraphs on the FAQ later:

Huh? Didn't they just say that if you let your subscription lapse you can continue using your software, just not get upgrades and such? And now they say "No, let lapse and you're toast!"

Ummmm...which is it Avid? Please clarify??

Your first double quote is for Support Plan and the second quote is subscription related i.e monthly or yearly subscription.

A Subscription lapses and stops working when you stop paying. Pretty clear :D

DonaldM
01-27-2015, 02:48 PM
Your first double quote is for Support Plan and the second quote is subscription related i.e monthly or yearly subscription.

A Subscription lapses and stops working when you stop paying. Pretty clear :D

Oh, okay...I see now. Wow...this is confusing! All this jargon to learn!

Southsidemusic
01-27-2015, 02:51 PM
Oh, okay...I see now. Wow...this is confusing! All this jargon to learn!

Agree :D

It's like they made it soo confusing we would give up and jump in :eek:

Anywhere I look there is confusion galore. Hundreds of posts asking the same thing in different ways and still can't understand why it needs to be written so damn convoluted :rolleyes:

Best Regards
Christopher

propower
01-27-2015, 03:00 PM
So here is a bit of twisted logic... but try it on...

IF: There really is no resale past this year then the idea of "equity" kind of goes away. This changes the Ownership/Rent/Subscribe equation (all IMO of course)...

So lets say you have PT11 - do nothing (possibly sell it if you can!) ! If not...

When the next big thing comes out (or now if you want 11) - subscribe either yearly or monthly. If you don't use it all the time (as in every month) 10 months of subscription is the same price as subscribing yearly. And yearly subscribing is only $100 more than maintenance (YES - only $100 more!!!)! So since you get the first year maintenance in the initial $899 it takes 7 yes SEVEN years to break even between buying (which you possibly/likely can never sell) and Subscribing.

So there is my take - SELL your PT Vanilla licenses while you can! Are you SURE you will even be using PT Vanilla in 7 years???

I'd also wager that you can buy iloks with a frozen license (Perpetual license with lapsed support plan) in 2016 for pennies on the dollar....

Rosco1969
01-27-2015, 03:07 PM
The way I read it is, $299 annually gets you everything... updates, support, upgrades to new versions etc... (for vanilla), or you can pay Monthly for the same.

And this could be started anytime... next year... or in two years... or in three years...

Correct?

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 03:17 PM
I would have thought that no matter when you decided to "opt in" it would cost you $199... whether its now, or in 2 years time!

This would mean that if I, in two years time decide I would like to upgrade my PT11 to PT12 (if 13 isn't out by then) then it would cost me $899!!??

That CANNOT be right.... doesn't make ANY sense.... when you compare the cost it was to upgrade from 9 to 10... or 10 to 11. I got a free upgrade from 9 to 10... but the upgrade price from 10 to 11 was around the £200 mark if I remember correctly. So, now it would be $899!.. Ye right!

I have no need to upgrade just yet, I paid my money and am entitled to all the updates etc to PT11.

I wish someone from Avid would pitch in here.

(If this is indeed the case then Logic Pro X here I come, lol)

That's why the main new licensing thread over in the Pro Tools 11 section of the DUC is so big. We've been discussing this new scheme since last October when it was announced.

Short answer in response to your "That CANNOT be right.... doesn't make ANY sense" comment is ...

It IS right .... and ... it DOES make sense to Avid.

Avid will from now on have 'guaranteed' steady income regardless of how much they do in the way of introducing new features and fixing existing bugs.

You'll pay $199 per year (or $599 if your a HD licence owner) instead of a similar fee as a 'one off' every time an upgrade is issued (in recent history every 18 months to 2 years).

If you don't join the support plan scheme your existing licence will continue to work, but will become unupgradable.

In that case, if you wanted to update at some point in the future, you'd either have to pay $899 to buy a new licence, or you could go down the rental route (monthly or annual subscription).

If you go the rental route, that licence would stop working if you stop renting.

Whether you buy or rent a new licence, you'll still have your old licence too, version frozen in time forever. You may be able to sell it, or you may not be, it depends on the exact licence.

Note that 'at this time' as Avid puts it, you cannot sell a licence that has been upgraded to the new support plan regime, presumably be ause they haven't made arrangements to transfer however many days are left in a support plan from one person to another. That may change in the future, but on the other hand, it may not.

As well as a money grab, its an attempt to kill off the market for 2nd hand licences.

Rosco1969
01-27-2015, 03:19 PM
No. I don't buy that at all

Rosco1969
01-27-2015, 03:21 PM
Unupgradable. ?? Nah...

Rosco1969
01-27-2015, 03:22 PM
It says if your "subscription" expires and you want to obtain Protools at a later date you will have to start a new subscription, either monthly, or annually.

propower
01-27-2015, 03:23 PM
As well as a money grab, its an attempt to kill off the market for 2nd hand licences.

I've changed my thinking on this! For frozen licenses on their own ilok I am thinking the resale market will be great. Not much $$$ but any non-upgradeable licenses will work fine at whatever version they stopped at. I think many people might even prefer this! The trick might be actually downloading the installers! Those I am sure they will lock down... though... people will adapt...

SearingSounds
01-27-2015, 03:41 PM
Ok so I have been reading all the posts here. Let me see if I have it right.
I bought pro tools 10 in May of 2014. Which allowed me to get Pro Tools 11 for free. I am now a Pro Tools 11 user.

When Pro tools 12 comes out all I have to pay is $199 for a plan and in 12 months I will have to pay another $199. From that point on if I pay $199 a year I will get to use my Pro Tools and get to upgrade to all the new versions.

Am I right?

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 04:10 PM
It says if your "subscription" expires and you want to obtain Protools at a later date you will have to start a new subscription, either monthly, or annually.

Subscription = rented licence.

Do not confuse licence subscription (rental) with the support plan for permanent (bought) licences.

You subscribe to a monthly plan, or an annual plan. For the annual plan, you still pay monthly, but commit to paying for a year, and pay a little less per month. A support plan for the length of your rental is included.

This is a) a new way of providing access to a Pro Tools licence, b) totally different to having a permanent (perpetual in Avid speak) licence.

The $199 ($599 for HD licences) annual support plan fee is for people with permanent licences. Either you bought one in the past, or you could buy one now for $899 including a support plan that lasts 12 months.

If you already have a permanent licence that you bought in the past, you either ...
1) Join the support plan regime by the end of 2015, paying $199/$599, then the same amount (until Avid changes the price) every 12 months, which means you'll pay nothing more and get all upgrades released for as long as you keep the support plan going, or
2) You don't join the support plan regime by the end of 2015, in which case your permanent licence is frozen at whatever version you are currently on, forever. It is no longer upgradable, ever, for any amount of money. In this case, should you decide at some point after the end of 2015 that there is a newer version of Pro Tools you would like to use, you must either ...
a) buy a completely new perpetual licence, at a cost of $899, and after 12 months decide whether to renew the support plan or let that licnce version freeze, or
b) start renting a licence via the subscription route.

In the case of either a) or b) above, you'll have two licences .... your old version frozen licence, and the new licence you've either bought or rented. You MAY be able to sell the old licence, it depends on exactly what licence it is, but its value will be limited as it is forever stuck at that version. It is not upgradable, ever.

I hope that's clear.

You may not like it, but those ARE the facts.

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 04:14 PM
I've changed my thinking on this! For frozen licenses on their own ilok I am thinking the resale market will be great. Not much $$$ but any non-upgradeable licenses will work fine at whatever version they stopped at. I think many people might even prefer this! The trick might be actually downloading the installers! Those I am sure they will lock down... though... people will adapt...

How will the buyer access the installers, seeing as he won't have that licence and thus Pro Tools version, registered in his Avid Account?

Avid MAY allow official ownership transfers of frozen licences, but then again they may not. No information has been forthcoming on this yet, and some licences, e.g. educational and HD licences upgraded fom CPTK are non-transferable anyway.

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 04:24 PM
No. I don't buy that at all

Is this meant to be humorous, as in ... You won't be buying into the support plan regime ...

Or do you believe that the information I posted is in some way inaccurate.

Just in case it's the latter, let me assure you, those are the facts. Go read up on it if you don't believe it. Read Avid's licensing info on its website, including the FAQ, and read the main 'new licensing thread here on the DUC.

You may not like it, you may not want to believe it, but this IS the new regime that Avid has implemented. This is not speculation, it is fact.

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 04:44 PM
So here is a bit of twisted logic... but try it on...

IF: There really is no resale past this year then the idea of "equity" kind of goes away. This changes the Ownership/Rent/Subscribe equation (all IMO of course)...

So lets say you have PT11 - do nothing (possibly sell it if you can!) ! If not...

When the next big thing comes out (or now if you want 11) - subscribe either yearly or monthly. If you don't use it all the time (as in every month) 10 months of subscription is the same price as subscribing yearly. And yearly subscribing is only $100 more than maintenance (YES - only $100 more!!!)! So since you get the first year maintenance in the initial $899 it takes 7 yes SEVEN years to break even between buying (which you possibly/likely can never sell) and Subscribing.

So there is my take - SELL your PT Vanilla licenses while you can! Are you SURE you will even be using PT Vanilla in 7 years???

I'd also wager that you can buy iloks with a frozen license (Perpetual license with lapsed support plan) in 2016 for pennies on the dollar....

ooooh, let's see ... I wonder which route Avid wants you to take .... my guess is that no permanent licences and everyone renting is an outcome that Avid would be happy with ... no revenue spikes, just a steady trickle from every user, every month.

It makes accounting easier, and assists predictability of the income revenue stream, while elimnating the uncertainties of the old regime, where people may or may not choose to upgrade in a timely manner, if ever.

Rosco1969
01-27-2015, 04:44 PM
It is no longer upgradable, ever, for any amount of money.

This is what I don't buy.

Can you actually show us where AVID have stated this "fact"?

.

YYR123
01-27-2015, 05:14 PM
It is no longer upgradable, ever, for any amount of money. upgradable, ever


2) You don't join the support plan regime by the end of 2015, in which case your permanent licence is frozen at whatever version you are currently on, forever. It is no longer upgradable, ever, for any amount of money.


Whoa, doesn't seem very chill....at all

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 05:23 PM
This is what I don't buy.

Can you actually show us where AVID have stated this "fact"?

.

Erm .... YES! (sigh)

Avid originally had the information (mostly) all in one place, but it is now split across the licensing page on the website here ..
http://www.avid.com/US/products/pro-tools-software#licensing

The licensing FAQ here ...
http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/faq/Pro-Tools-Licensing-FAQ

And the software upgrade FAQ here ...
http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/faq/Pro-Tools-Q4-2014-Offer-FAQ

They are ALL worth a read, and I suggest you make the effort, so you know what the new regime actually involves.

If you focus on the licencing faq first though ...

Let's try looking at question 6 first, just to get your attention ...

Q. I have Pro Tools | HD 11, but am not yet on an upgrade and support plan. Why should I upgrade to Pro Tools 12?
A. Pro Tools 12 sets the stage for Avid Cloud Collaboration and Avid Marketplace, enabling you to collaborate with others and get recognition and payment for your work. This upgrade also includes an annual upgrade and support plan, so you'll also receive all future updates, upgrades, and priority support for one full year, renewable annually. You have until December 31, 2015 to get on a plan to upgrade your perpetual license and stay current for the next 12 months; otherwise, you will no longer be able to upgrade your software. And if you want to get early access to Avid Cloud Collaboration for Pro Tools, you will need to upgrade to Pro Tools 12.

Then, when you've got that clear, try looking at question 3, which confirms is applies to 'vanilla' as well as HD.

Q. Will my Pro Tools perpetual license stop working at the end of the one-year upgrade and support plan period?
A. No, you can continue to use Pro Tools if you allow your upgrade and support plan to expire. However, if you want to continue receiving updates with new features, you will need to renew your plan before it expires or switch to a subscription. Pro Tools and Pro Tools | HD owners will have through the end of 2015 to get on an annual upgrade and support plan. If you don’t get on a plan, you will not be able to upgrade your software in the future.

Now for question 4 ...

Q: If I have a Pro Tools perpetual license and my upgrade and support plan expires, what are my options if I want to upgrade later on?
A: You will have two options to get access to the latest version of Pro Tools:
Subscribe to Pro Tools software on a monthly or annual basis
Purchase a new Pro Tools perpetual license (full product) that includes an annual upgrade and support plan.

After you've read the FAQ extracts I've provided above for your ease of reference, AND made the effort to read through the two full FAQ documents (both to confirm the extracts are accurate and to educate yourself) ...

perhaps you'd care to edit your post to REMOVE THE SARCASTIC DOUBLE QUOTES YOU PLACED AROUND THE WORD "FACT" and acknowledge the accuracy of my recent posts on the subject.

Obviously I accept I did a little paraphrasing, using words like 'ever' and forever' and 'for any amount of money', whereas Avid simply says that you will not be able to upgrade in the future, and that if you want to, you'll either have to buy a new permanent (perpetual) licence or start renting (subscribing). But I reckon the meaning, and intent, is the same.

Rosco1969
01-27-2015, 05:34 PM
Yes but, you'll either have to buy a perpetual license or a subscription...? So, does that not mean I can buy an annual subscription after my perpetual license expires?

roberts
01-27-2015, 05:49 PM
If you don’t get on a plan, you will not be able to upgrade your software in the future.


This is the sound of Avid committing suicide with it's customer base.

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 06:03 PM
Yes but, you'll either have to buy a perpetual license or a subscription...? So, does that not mean I can buy an annual subscription after my perpetual license expires?

Yes ... but ...

Your perpetual (permanent) licence does not expire. If it is not on a support plan by end of 2015 it can still be used, but can no longer be upgraded. It is forever stuck at that version. You can use it as long as you can keep a computer running that will support the version of Pro Tools unlocked by that licence (eg Pro Tools 11 if that's the version you have at the moment).

If you then later decide that, actually, you would like to have a newer version of Pro Tools than your perpetual licence provides you with, you can either buy a new perpetual licence, or start a subscription (rental) of one.

You should bear in mind that the subscription cost will be MORE than $199 per year, so it will be cheaper to buy and keep renewing a support plan for your perpetual licence than to start subscribing. If you ever need a second licence, especially if only occasionally, a monthly subscription might be an attractive option.

I've not seen a definite published figure for subscription fees yet, but various people are speculating in other threads. You could take a look at the figures for Avid's other software app (Media Composer) which already has pretty much identical options for purchase or rental implemented, to get a feel for how subscription costs compare to purchase. I will be surprised if Avid doesn't use a similar purchase vs rental price ratio, and we know the purchase cost for Pro Tools is now $899, so you could make an educated guess as to cost.

If you start a subscription you will get a new licence, and that licence will stop working if you ever stop subscribing. This subscription licence would be a completely separate entity from your existing perpetual licence.

Rosco1969
01-27-2015, 06:10 PM
Well, if that's the case... It's back to Logic for me. I was always a Logic user until Protools 10. Jumped ship. Loved the workflow. But if AVID are indeed going to take a massive dump all over us like this, I'm out.

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 06:21 PM
This is the sound of Avid committing suicide with it's customer base.

Well, that remains to be seen.

I've already said, explicitly and publicly, in this forum, that I won't be signing up to the support plan, but not many other people have sade the same.

Maybe Avid will lose a lot of customers over this, and maybe it won't. The fact is ... it is intresting that they are taking such a gamble.

The fact that they are doing it could be suggestive of lots of things that we could speculate about, but I'm over it, I've made my decision. I can't be bothered speculating. about their reasons.

I'm entitled to PT12 for free, as I've got a couple of student licences on the four years of free upgrades deal, but I'll be reading the T&C and EULA before surrendering my existing licences.

But my PT11HD will become version frozen.

I'm fortunate that 50% of my clients ask to work in Logic or Cubase, and some of the people I use PT for could care less which DAW I actually use. I expect my use of PT will just gradually dwindle over time as I persuade more and more clients to work in Logic or Cubase.

Its a real shame though, as I much prefer using Pro Tools, unless there is a lot of complex MIDI stuff involved. Still, I'll get over that.

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 06:24 PM
Well, if that's the case... It's back to Logic for me. I was always a Logic user until Protools 10. Jumped ship. Loved the workflow. But if AVID are indeed going to take a massive dump all over us like this, I'm out.

Don't forget to remove the quotes around "fact" before you leave ;-)

propower
01-27-2015, 06:54 PM
I've not seen a definite published figure for subscription fees yet, but various people are speculating in other threads. You could take a look at the figures for Avid's other software app (Media Composer) which already has pretty much identical options for purchase or rental implemented, to get a feel for how subscription costs compare to purchase. I will be surprised if Avid doesn't use a similar purchase vs rental price ratio, and we know the purchase cost for Pro Tools is now $899, so you could make an educated guess as to cost.


In Tony Cariddi's interview at NAMM last week he said WRT PT Standard (Vanilla)
Monthly subscription = $29.99/mo ~$360/yr
Yearly subscription = $299/yr
We already knew Purchase and Support plan is $899 Then $199/yr after 1st yr.
So yearly subscribing is $100 more than the maintenance on an owned copy

This is where I got my 7 year break even from --
And why I am almost thinking it is unwise now to Buy PT if you don;t own it already
Renting is fiscally pretty attractive .... especially if there is no equity in owning!
WAY different than Media Composer (3 year break even)!

Years -- sub monthly -- sub yearly -- Buy and Maintain
1 ............. 360 ............. 299 ............. 899
2 ............. 720 ............. 598 ............. 1098
3 ............. 1080 ............. 897 ............. 1297
4 ............. 1440 ............. 1196 ............. 1496
5 ............. 1800 ............. 1495 ............. 1695
6 ............. 2160 ............. 1794 ............. 1894
7 ............. 2520 ............. 2093 ............. 2093
8 ............. 2880 ............. 2392 ............. 2292
9 ............. 3240 ............. 2691 ............. 2491
10 ............. 3600 ............. 2990 ............. 2690
11 ............. 3960 ............. 3289 ............. 2889

Darryl Ramm
01-27-2015, 07:04 PM
Logic X $199, no fees, no subscriptions, you own the license, no confusing bs. Up to date with OS X and a lot less hassle than care and maintenance of Pro Tools. And every few years you expect to spend ~$200 or so an a new version, ... if you want to.

propower
01-27-2015, 07:08 PM
Logic X

I so try to like that program :-)

Maybe I can try harder -- LOL

Darryl Ramm
01-27-2015, 07:13 PM
I so try to like that program :-)

Maybe I can try harder -- LOL

The UI still gets me, darkness and too much foofoo and wasted space. Yes I know it is hackable, but they could have so much more instant love from other users if they just fixed the basic UI. OTOH for editing MIDI... And track freeze, did somebody want track freeze? VCA faders? Did somebody want VCA faders? Mackie Control protocol support for surfaces (yes you still have EUCON if you trust you can ever get it to work..)... $199...

propower
01-27-2015, 07:37 PM
The UI still gets me, darkness and too much foofoo and wasted space. Yes I know it is hackable, but they could have so much more instant love from other users if they just fixed the basic UI. OTOH for editing MIDI... And track freeze, did somebody want track freeze? VCA faders? Did somebody want VCA faders? Mackie Control protocol support for surfaces (yes you still have EUCON if you trust you can ever get it to work..)... $199...

What - even proper support for 3rd party hardware delay compensation - built in pitch correction - Drummer - Beatbox crap... and SoundGrid Studio compatible so I can use all my AVID (and old DigiDesign) interfaces without the crappy AVID Core Audio Driver limitations... nah... no ... but its so ... dark....

YYR123
01-27-2015, 07:55 PM
Great info guys

Darryl Ramm
01-27-2015, 07:55 PM
And no iLok bovinewaste.

nigelpry
01-27-2015, 11:05 PM
In Tony Cariddi's interview at NAMM last week he said WRT PT Standard (Vanilla)
Monthly subscription = $29.99/mo ~$360/yr
Yearly subscription = $299/yr
We already knew Purchase and Support plan is $899 Then $199/yr after 1st yr.
So yearly subscribing is $100 more than the maintenance on an owned copy

This is where I got my 7 year break even from --
And why I am almost thinking it is unwise now to Buy PT if you don;t own it already
Renting is fiscally pretty attractive .... especially if there is no equity in owning!
WAY different than Media Composer (3 year break even)!

Years -- sub monthly -- sub yearly -- Buy and Maintain
1 ............. 360 ............. 299 ............. 899
2 ............. 720 ............. 598 ............. 1098
3 ............. 1080 ............. 897 ............. 1297
4 ............. 1440 ............. 1196 ............. 1496
5 ............. 1800 ............. 1495 ............. 1695
6 ............. 2160 ............. 1794 ............. 1894
7 ............. 2520 ............. 2093 ............. 2093
8 ............. 2880 ............. 2392 ............. 2292
9 ............. 3240 ............. 2691 ............. 2491
10 ............. 3600 ............. 2990 ............. 2690
11 ............. 3960 ............. 3289 ............. 2889

Thanks for that confirmation of the source of the info. I missed that it was announced by Tony.
I couldn't remember who'd said it here, and wasn't sure where it came from, so thought it best not to muddy the waters.

I agree fully, on those figures, hardly anyone will buy 'vanilla' at $899, unless they are uninformed.

Rosco1969
01-28-2015, 12:47 AM
Don't forget to remove the quotes around "fact" before you leave ;-)


Lol, is it bothering you that much Nigel?

;-)

KV626
01-28-2015, 05:17 AM
I so try to like that program :-)

Maybe I can try harder -- LOL

:-) Me too. I've tried Logic 8 and 9 in the past - I just can't get used to this damn UI! Yet for $199 and a few dozens GB to download, it's still an amazing deal!

musicman691
01-28-2015, 05:30 AM
Logic X $199, no fees, no subscriptions, you own the license, no confusing bs. Up to date with OS X and a lot less hassle than care and maintenance of Pro Tools. And every few years you expect to spend ~$200 or so an a new version, ... if you want to.
Or Digital Performer 8 (DP9 newly announced at NAMM) at $395 crossgrade for those adverse to Apple software or on Windows machines (DP is dual platform). Again: no subscriptions, no fees, no iLok and easy on cpu resources. More expensive than (iL)Logic though.

KV626
01-28-2015, 10:40 AM
Or Digital Performer 8 (DP9 newly announced at NAMM) at $395 crossgrade for those adverse to Apple software or on Windows machines (DP is dual platform). Again: no subscriptions, no fees, no iLok and easy on cpu resources.

That's debatable when using VIs and/or "big" sessions but let's stay on topic :-)

ArKay99
01-28-2015, 11:44 AM
I for one, don't have a problem with upgrading for a price...i.e. back when I was just a kid I used 8LE and then upgraded to PT10...skipped over V9 and for $400 got V9 and V10. Later on I picked up a used TDM3 system and bought DSP versions of my necessary plugins. I got a few deals but paid the money to get the upgrades. I later became an 'early adopter' of PT11 | HD. which is where I'm at right now. The thing that has gotten me irritated is AVID's inability to address serious bugs in both the hardware and software, that I and many others have to deal with. Some are even show stoppers. Try explaining to a high profile client paying good money that the -9171 or -9172 error that just stopped THE vocal take in the middle was not your fault and it won't happen again!

Now, instead of working to rid the bugs on the equipment they have released as being user friendly, they concoct a 'plan' to grab us even more by the ankles, turn us upside down, and shake vigorously until even the tissues in our pockets fall out.

Since I am on HD I'm SCREWED if I can't make the purchase at $600 due to downtime incurred by their very flawed product even though I have close to $20k invested in AVID... and I don't think I'm alone...

So, because I've opted into the flagship version of their product line I can't buy an upgrade AT ANY PRICE if I let my HD 'subscription' lapse or don't buy into it? So that means I'm perpetually stuck with $15k+ of hardware that is not up-gradable due to me being locked out of upgrading the software?

AVID, have I NOT BENT OVER FAR ENOUGH?

YYR123
01-28-2015, 11:57 AM
I The thing that has gotten me irritated is AVID's inability to address serious bugs in both the hardware and software, that I and many others have to deal with.


This is real talk ^

Where is the pitch II fix....little things like this don't inspire confidence

Who cares about fixing bugs when your customer has already paid for a year.....

This is the inherent problem of the subscription model as I see it.

On topic I don't think anybody has a problem paying for software or paying those upgrade costs

jpsexton
01-28-2015, 12:02 PM
I'm on 10/11HD now and will probably stay there for quite a while. I figure I've got till the end of the year to decide whether to give AVID another $599 to stay current or let my opportunity to upgrade lapse.

If I decide to let it lapse and use my current system until I feel like I "need" to upgrade you can bet I won't be giving AVID full price for a new license! There are too many options (Cubase, Nuendo, Reaper, Digital Performer, Studio One, Logic, and the list goes on) for them to strong arm me into some kind of never ending fee.

There was a time that Pro Tools (hardware/software) offered things you couldn't get anywhere else. Those days are over and AVID better realize just how much competition they have before they cause so much discontent that a mass exodus begins to happen...

musicman691
01-28-2015, 02:01 PM
That's debatable when using VIs and/or "big" sessions but let's stay on topic :-)
I was talking about DP itself.

nigelpry
01-28-2015, 02:27 PM
Lol, is it bothering you that much Nigel?

;-)

No Rosco, it's enough that, finally, you believe me ;-)

Rosco1969
01-28-2015, 02:41 PM
No Rosco, it's enough that, finally, you believe me ;-)

:-)

gtomassetti
01-28-2015, 06:27 PM
You know, I had been in Logic 9.1.8 for about 17 years, and not long ago I finally decided to uninstall it completely.

I bought Studio One from Sweetwater and at first blush, it really is pretty good (except for this bizarre thing where it crashes on exit EVERY SINGLE TIME, although this apparently doesn't have any effect on the work I've done).

I've been wavering on whether to spend the $200 to get Logic Pro X.1, which I know my Raven MTi, which should arrive tomorrow, will support. According to Slate, they're working on Studio One support, and yes, they're working on PT12 support as well.

Maybe it's time to just stay with PT 11 for as long as I can. I really do like my OMNI, and I can't imagine that with what Avid is pulling now, selling my 11HD license and the OMNI is a viable option.

I really don't know what I'm gonna do, but I do know that I'm not very pleased with Avid right about now.

nickthepick
01-28-2015, 06:31 PM
I'm trying to comprehend Avid? If they offered the upgrade to PT 11 in December...
They put the word out in October of their new deal - I can't believe I listened to my "sales rep" to get PT11 in September. Well, guess he's biting the bullet too.
All of you "early adopters" to Pro Tools 11. If you can't do good work with Pro Tools 11 - Pro Tools 12 ain't gonna help you either. Netflix 12 is coming out next month...$9.95.

Life is NOT like a box of chocolates. Life is just a subscription. :-)

ArKay99
01-28-2015, 07:03 PM
I'm trying to comprehend Avid? If they offered the upgrade to PT 11 in December...
They put the word out in October of their new deal - I can't believe I listened to my "sales rep" to get PT11 in September. Well, guess he's biting the bullet too.
All of you "early adopters" to Pro Tools 11. If you can't do good work with Pro Tools 11 - Pro Tools 12 ain't gonna help you either. Netflix 12 is coming out next month...$9.95.

Life is NOT like a box of chocolates. Life is just a subscription. :-)

PT11 or the work I do with it is not the issue. PT11 | HD users can't upgrade at all if they let the subscription which they have yet to make available lapse... i.e. the ONLY way to get PT12 | HD is to buy a new HD system... This is getting more and more like ObamaCare....

Bill Denton
01-28-2015, 08:52 PM
PT11 or the work I do with it is not the issue. PT11 | HD users can't upgrade at all if they let the subscription which they have yet to make available lapse... i.e. the ONLY way to get PT12 | HD is to buy a new HD system... This is getting more and more like ObamaCare....

... the ONLY way to get PT12 | HD is to buy a new HD system ...

Could you tell us where you got that information?

I saw that Avid had added a little bit of information regarding PT 12 and HD, but I haven't seen anything about what you stated...

Bob Olhsson
01-28-2015, 09:20 PM
...Who cares about fixing bugs when your customer has already paid for a year.....

This is the inherent problem of the subscription model as I see it.
When you consider that your customer might not subscribe the following year, I think there is more and not less incentive to fix bugs!

YYR123
01-28-2015, 09:36 PM
When you consider that your customer might not subscribe the following year, I think there is more and not less incentive to fix bugs!


In theory, ok but I have yet to see a company that strives for quarterly earnings (as a metric of success), genuinely push for anything other than that, quarterly earnings

Barry Johns
01-28-2015, 10:07 PM
From everything I read on various forums, I think the average user in both native and HD are done upgrading. The big business units, they will keep on keeping on. IMHO that's what Avid figured would happen and are prepared.

Another interesting point is why did they raise native price 130%, pushing it further away in the home user.

Cubase Pro $550

Digital Performer $500

Logic X $200

Sonar platinum $500

ProTools $899

For the sake of conversation let's forget about the annual upgrade cost of 200 bucks a year, who in their right mind at this point would go to ProTools at that price? There is nothing whatsoever about ProTools native, that is so compelling to pay that much more over the competition. Absolutely nothing worth that.

YYR123
01-28-2015, 10:18 PM
Yeah good point, however I was just asked today by a friend of mine about Pro tools for his son who is in school for a recording degree or something like that.

So I'm sure they still have educational licenses, but yes a very valid point about that entry price tag.

But not only with an entry price tag I also spent a little bit of time telling him about the finicky-ness of ProTools and about picking a computer and how that is a very important part of the process

Or not only is there a high buy in, you also have to have a better than average computer to make it all work as best as you imagined

musicman691
01-29-2015, 05:39 AM
From everything I read on various forums, I think the average user in both native and HD are done upgrading. The big business units, they will keep on keeping on. IMHO that's what Avid figured would happen and are prepared.

Another interesting point is why did they raise native price 130%, pushing it further away in the home user.

Cubase Pro $550

Digital Performer $500

Logic X $200

Sonar platinum $500

ProTools $899

For the sake of conversation let's forget about the annual upgrade cost of 200 bucks a year, who in their right mind at this point would go to ProTools at that price? There is nothing whatsoever about ProTools native, that is so compelling to pay that much more over the competition. Absolutely nothing worth that.Something not to forget is that a number of the daws you cited except for PT have crossgrades from other daw or other qualifying audio software so it makes the change even less expensive. For example DP crossgrade is $100 off.

JFreak
01-29-2015, 06:03 AM
Something not to forget is that a number of the daws you cited except for PT have crossgrades from other daw or other qualifying audio software so it makes the change even less expensive. For example DP crossgrade is $100 off.

It's still much much more than I'd ever pay for DP :)

Tim R.
01-29-2015, 06:24 AM
i.e. the ONLY way to get PT12 | HD is to buy a new HD system... This is getting more and more like ObamaCare....

Not exactly true. You can sign on to a "Subscription" plan anytime ($TBD I think). The terminology is where things are getting confused on this and other threads. There is the "Upgrade and Support plan" and the "Subscription Plan".

....this thread is getting more and more like Fox News...

ArKay99
01-29-2015, 06:58 AM
... the ONLY way to get PT12 | HD is to buy a new HD system ...

Could you tell us where you got that information?

I saw that Avid had added a little bit of information regarding PT 12 and HD, but I haven't seen anything about what you stated...

From the FAQ:

Q. What is a perpetual license?
A. A "perpetual license" is a license that does not expire—you own the software. You get a perpetual license when you purchase a new Pro Tools or Pro Tools | HD system or Pro Tools software. New Pro Tools software purchases come with a one-year annual upgrade and support plan. After one year, you have the option of renewing your plan to continue receiving the latest features. If you choose not to renew, you can continue using your software indefinitely at the latest version you have, but will not be able to upgrade it at a later time.

Q. Will my Pro Tools perpetual license stop working at the end of the one-year upgrade and support plan period?
A. No, you can continue to use Pro Tools if you allow your upgrade and support plan to expire. However, if you want to continue receiving updates with new features, you will need to renew your plan before it expires or switch to a subscription. Pro Tools and Pro Tools | HD owners will have through the end of 2015 to get on an annual upgrade and support plan. If you don’t get on a plan, you will not be able to upgrade your software in the future.

AVID has yet to provide a price for outright purchase of a new PT12 | HD license. Will they now allow that without hardware?

I don't see any language that says I can purchase a 'perpetual' PT12 | HD license after the support plan expires. Until I see that I have to assume my only way back into a perpetual license is to purchase a new PT12 | HD system.

I really hate the idea of 'leasing' or 'subscribing' to something that is as important to me as my bread and butter.

ArKay99
01-29-2015, 07:09 AM
Not exactly true. You can sign on to a "Subscription" plan anytime ($TBD I think). The terminology is where things are getting confused on this and other threads. There is the "Upgrade and Support plan" and the "Subscription Plan".

....this thread is getting more and more like Fox News...

Politics aside, thanks for the reply. Please see my response to Bill Denton above.

nickthepick
01-29-2015, 07:43 AM
My issue is the "Rollout" with 11. I know people that were really "sold" on buying PT11. I've watched the YouTube spots of "how cool PT10 is but wait till PT11. Then it's Avid has such a deal" get 10 & you'll get 11. That sounded pretty good for the guys that didn't have AAX plug-ins. Ha, Fox news/ObamaCare. Some of the Cupertino crowd must cringe! Compared to that! I can imagine you Vintage King or Sweetwater sales rep having to do "Town Hall Meetings" on Avid Care.

Tim R.
01-29-2015, 10:11 AM
I don't see any language that says I can purchase a 'perpetual' PT12 | HD license after the support plan expires. Until I see that I have to assume my only way back into a perpetual license is to purchase a new PT12 | HD system.

I really hate the idea of 'leasing' or 'subscribing' to something that is as important to me as my bread and butter.

My impression is that if you ever let your "Upgrade/support Plan" expire, whatever version you are currently on becomes perpetual in it's current state.

So in effect you are still always owning a perpetual license, just not necessarily perpetual updates.

Then, down the line, if you want to get back on the train, you'd have to revert to a "Subscription Plan" or purchase a new system.

As far as "leasing" or "Subscribing" it is definitely the way of the future. Everyone I've spoken with (all professionals) that have subscription software (ie Adobe) is happy with the process.

IMO (not that I claim to know coding) the theory that AVID could do more incremental feature implementation makes sense from the standpoint that they could suss out potential conflicts more easily and maintain more reliability.

ArKay99
01-29-2015, 10:58 AM
My impression is that if you ever let your "Upgrade/support Plan" expire, whatever version you are currently on becomes perpetual in it's current state.

So in effect you are still always owning a perpetual license, just not necessarily perpetual updates.

Then, down the line, if you want to get back on the train, you'd have to revert to a "Subscription Plan" or purchase a new system.

As far as "leasing" or "Subscribing" it is definitely the way of the future. Everyone I've spoken with (all professionals) that have subscription software (ie Adobe) is happy with the process.

IMO (not that I claim to know coding) the theory that AVID could do more incremental feature implementation makes sense from the standpoint that they could suss out potential conflicts more easily and maintain more reliability.

I see what you're saying, but the subscription doesn't feel comfortable to me as both a software AND hardware user. The hardware is completely specific to the software, i.e. I can't go out and purchase another DAW and have it work to my HDX card. And as I said, I don't mind paying for upgrades, i.e. integer upgrades... 11 to 12, for example. On top of that, my hardware is 'out of warranty' by now, so, what would a 'support plan' do for me? BTW, Adobe sucks too. :D

propower
01-29-2015, 11:08 AM
The hardware is completely specific to the software, i.e. I can't go out and purchase another DAW and have it work to my HDX card.

What a great point.

Bill Denton
01-29-2015, 05:10 PM
My impression is that if you ever let your "Upgrade/support Plan" expire, whatever version you are currently on becomes perpetual in it's current state.

So in effect you are still always owning a perpetual license, just not necessarily perpetual updates.

Then, down the line, if you want to get back on the train, you'd have to revert to a "Subscription Plan" or purchase a new system.

As far as "leasing" or "Subscribing" it is definitely the way of the future. Everyone I've spoken with (all professionals) that have subscription software (ie Adobe) is happy with the process.

IMO (not that I claim to know coding) the theory that AVID could do more incremental feature implementation makes sense from the standpoint that they could suss out potential conflicts more easily and maintain more reliability.

IMO (not that I claim to know coding) the theory that AVID could do more incremental feature implementation makes sense from the standpoint that they could suss out potential conflicts more easily and maintain more reliability.

I do know programming, and you are absolutely correct...

As with anything else, the fewer the variables, the easier it is to test and trouble-shoot.

No matter how hard we try, maintaining effective communication among programmers during the development process is almost impossible.

Suppose you have an existing application, with five programmers working on different features in parallel, with a single release date, it is almost impossible to test for issues introduced by interactions between the new features before the common release date.

But, when programmers are working in a serial fashion, with a series of "when it's finished" release dates "feature 1" can be released and any issues that come up "in the wild" can be located and addressed before "feature 2" has finished its testing regimen.

All in all, it's a win-win for all involved...

Bill Denton
01-29-2015, 05:31 PM
I see what you're saying, but the subscription doesn't feel comfortable to me as both a software AND hardware user. The hardware is completely specific to the software, i.e. I can't go out and purchase another DAW and have it work to my HDX card. And as I said, I don't mind paying for upgrades, i.e. integer upgrades... 11 to 12, for example. On top of that, my hardware is 'out of warranty' by now, so, what would a 'support plan' do for me? BTW, Adobe sucks too. :D

I'm afraid you have an "expectation" problem...

Some people bought a TDM system a week before HDX was released. It came with a specific version of Pro Tools HD, on specific Apple and Windows operating systems.

If it didn't meet their requirements at that specific time, they should not have purchased it.

Avid implicitly promised it would work with a particular version of Pro Tools, running on specific operating systems. That's it.

Because Avid had a history of having newer versions of Pro Tools work with older hardware, and of providing updates to allow it to function with later operating systems, some people may have developed certain expectations.

But, Avid never promised Pro Tools would be forward or backward compatible with anything, and they are under no legal or moral obligation to do so.

It's not a pleasant situation to be in, but you can't blame Avid for whatever expectations you may have developed.

I learned a long time ago that if I want to see a newer or faster or shinier computer released tomorrow, all I have to do is buy the current model today. And that's just the way things work...

Bob Olhsson
01-29-2015, 05:37 PM
...when programmers are working in a serial fashion, with a series of "when it's finished" release dates "feature 1" can be released and any issues that come up "in the wild" can be located and addressed before "feature 2" has finished its testing regimen.

All in all, it's a win-win for all involved...Combine that with all customers being on telephone support and they'll know about issues "in the wild" much faster than in the past.

I've had incredible phone service experiences from Apple about iTunes running on my PC and Dell about a problem with my workstation computer. It's a whole different thing than trying to write up a problem and communicate by email. The person on the phone can ask questions and has a database of known problems at hand among with work-arounds.

zedhed
01-29-2015, 07:07 PM
Life is NOT like a box of chocolates. Life is just a subscription. :-)

Only to those who choose to subscribe to religion. ;)

Carry on....:-)

Barry Johns
01-29-2015, 07:16 PM
"

....this thread is getting more and more like Fox News...

What, you mean an inconvenient truth? You mean it actually had fact verses inflated rhetoric that has no basis of fact?

TOM@METRO
01-29-2015, 07:17 PM
I learned a long time ago that if I want to see a newer or faster or shinier computer released tomorrow, all I have to do is buy the current model today. And that's just the way things work...
This reminds me of a particular computer store here in LA a few years back. A giant sign on the back wall said...

"Obsolescence, It's that thing that happens as you leave the store with your purchases."

They are no longer there though.

YYR123
01-29-2015, 08:23 PM
"Obsolescence, It's that thing that happens as you leave the store with your purchases."

They are no longer there though.


Nice

writeroxie
01-29-2015, 08:50 PM
1) People buying an upgrade to PT11 now get 12 for free when it comes out,
2) Pro Tools 12 is not available yet,
3) You don't have to do anything yet,
4) You don't have to anything when Pro Tools 12 is released,
5) You do have to make a decision about upgrading Pro Tools by end of 2015,
6) The upgrade to PT12 costs $199,
7) The upgrade includes a renewable support plan at $199 annually,
8) If you don't upgrade, your PT licence will be stuck at PT11 unupgradable,

9) If you later decide you want a newer version of PT ...
a) You could to buy a new licence at $899,
b) Or you could 'rent' a licence, but if you stop renting it stops working,
b) You'll have two licences,
c) One able to run PT10/11,
d) The other able to run whatever is current at the time of purchase, plus possibly older versions (for example, when first available we've been told that the new licence bundle will include licences for 10, 11 and 12),
e) That new licence, which includes support plan, will also run any newer versions released while the support plan is active,
f) The same rules apply to that new licence regarding renewing the support plan, if you don't keep renewing it annually, it stops being upgradable.

Nigel, I believe it was you concerned with the future for Educational PT license holders? I am one as well. I work at a college. I asked Avid a few months back if I could upgrade from the EDU license and they said there were no paths to upgrade from the EDU. So if that's dead in the water, I'm now considering buying a "full" PT 11/10 vanilla bundle license now. If I buy from a dealer (always cheaper), I want to know if I will I get a free upgrade to 12 when it comes out, and also curious if that buys me a year of the Support Plan too? Or is that only if purchased through Avid?

Barry Johns
01-29-2015, 09:43 PM
Yeah good point, however I was just asked today by a friend of mine about Pro tools for his son who is in school for a recording degree or something like that.

So I'm sure they still have educational licenses, but yes a very valid point about that entry price tag.

But not only with an entry price tag I also spent a little bit of time telling him about the finicky-ness of ProTools and about picking a computer and how that is a very important part of the process

Or not only is there a high buy in, you also have to have a better than average computer to make it all work as best as you imagined

Please tell the father to do everything he can to convince his Son to get out of that school and get a degree from a school where he can actually have a chance of any future job that can actually provide for a family.

Recording careers are dead forever!!!!!

Do it because it's your passion but do not do it to provide for your family.

Making a "real" living in music recording today is as much of a hoop dream as making it in music!

YYR123
01-29-2015, 09:46 PM
I agree with you, however try telling an 18yr old not to do something......

His dad has as much influence as I would.....

The 18yr old wants to believe everything, by about 30 he might start to realize that maybe he has made a mistake and seek for new a direction $$$

nigelpry
01-30-2015, 02:11 AM
Nigel, I believe it was you concerned with the future for Educational PT license holders? I am one as well. I work at a college. I asked Avid a few months back if I could upgrade from the EDU license and they said there were no paths to upgrade from the EDU. So if that's dead in the water, I'm now considering buying a "full" PT 11/10 vanilla bundle license now. If I buy from a dealer (always cheaper), I want to know if I will I get a free upgrade to 12 when it comes out, and also curious if that buys me a year of the Support Plan too? Or is that only if purchased through Avid?

I've heard it said on the DUC that people buying from e.g. Sweetwater are getting the support plan too, but i've no personal experience of it.

Some companies are selling old stock, which may no come with the support plan, and some hardware purchases that come with Pro Tools bundled in do not have the support plan either.

My advice if not buying from Avid, ask, ask again, and get it in writing that the support plan is included. Even then, who knows?

nigelpry
01-30-2015, 02:25 AM
IMO (not that I claim to know coding) the theory that AVID could do more incremental feature implementation makes sense from the standpoint that they could suss out potential conflicts more easily and maintain more reliability.

I do know programming, and you are absolutely correct...

As with anything else, the fewer the variables, the easier it is to test and trouble-shoot.

No matter how hard we try, maintaining effective communication among programmers during the development process is almost impossible.

Suppose you have an existing application, with five programmers working on different features in parallel, with a single release date, it is almost impossible to test for issues introduced by interactions between the new features before the common release date.

But, when programmers are working in a serial fashion, with a series of "when it's finished" release dates "feature 1" can be released and any issues that come up "in the wild" can be located and addressed before "feature 2" has finished its testing regimen.

All in all, it's a win-win for all involved...

aaaah, so that's why Avid is delaying the release of Track Freeze, which by many accounts is pretty much ready to be inflicted upon us.

And there was me thinking it was artificially being delayed to give Avid something to release later in the year to prove that the new support plan 'cool new feature' drip feed regime is working, because they've got nothing else to release later in the year.

It seems I'm way too cynical, thinking that Avid's first practical demonstration of the new world we are moving into is actually to go against the touted intent that 'cool new features' are released as soon as they are ready!

It certainly sounds more like 'trebles all around' in the boardroom rather than a 'win-win' for Avid AND it's customers to me, but what do I know.

musicman691
01-30-2015, 06:28 AM
Combine that with all customers being on telephone support and they'll know about issues "in the wild" much faster than in the past.

I've had incredible phone service experiences from Apple about iTunes running on my PC and Dell about a problem with my workstation computer. It's a whole different thing than trying to write up a problem and communicate by email. The person on the phone can ask questions and has a database of known problems at hand among with work-arounds.
You may have had 'incredible phone service experience' with Apple and Dell but those are two companies completely different than Avid. Very often those phone support people are only first level staff that are running off a script as you mention. However they generally do not have access to the full database of issue and fixes. You have to manually ask them to bring in an upper level support person and if said person isn't available you're stuck for the time being. I've been there and had that happen way to often. And THAT'S why I skeptical of Avid's support claims.

Sure Avid may learn about problems in the wild fast with phone support but given their history of being slower than a snail in fixing bugs that still exist I doubt we'll see things getter better in that regard.

nst7
01-30-2015, 08:08 AM
Nigel, I believe it was you concerned with the future for Educational PT license holders? I am one as well. I work at a college. I asked Avid a few months back if I could upgrade from the EDU license and they said there were no paths to upgrade from the EDU. So if that's dead in the water, I'm now considering buying a "full" PT 11/10 vanilla bundle license now. If I buy from a dealer (always cheaper), I want to know if I will I get a free upgrade to 12 when it comes out, and also curious if that buys me a year of the Support Plan too? Or is that only if purchased through Avid?

If the full version of Protools is $899, it comes with the support plan. If it's $699, it does not (it's older stock). This is regardless of where you get it.

It's actually cheaper to buy an Eleven Rack for $639. Then you have a few options:

1. Register the activation code now, and get PT11, but no support or free upgrade. Optionally buy the support plan for $199 and get support and free upgrades.

2. Start using the rack, but don't register the activation code until PT12 is out (maybe in March). Then you will get PT12, but no support plan. Optionally buy support plan for $199.

3. Do one of the above, but don't worry about the support plan until you have to at the end of the year.

ArKay99
01-30-2015, 11:11 PM
I'm afraid you have an "expectation" problem...

Some people bought a TDM system a week before HDX was released. It came with a specific version of Pro Tools HD, on specific Apple and Windows operating systems.

If it didn't meet their requirements at that specific time, they should not have purchased it.

Avid implicitly promised it would work with a particular version of Pro Tools, running on specific operating systems. That's it.

Because Avid had a history of having newer versions of Pro Tools work with older hardware, and of providing updates to allow it to function with later operating systems, some people may have developed certain expectations.

But, Avid never promised Pro Tools would be forward or backward compatible with anything, and they are under no legal or moral obligation to do so.

It's not a pleasant situation to be in, but you can't blame Avid for whatever expectations you may have developed.

I learned a long time ago that if I want to see a newer or faster or shinier computer released tomorrow, all I have to do is buy the current model today. And that's just the way things work...

I see your point. I actually bought an HD3 system with PT10 when it first came out, then went to HDX through the trade up plan. But I also believe that there is a difference between reasonable and unreasonable expectations.
Reasonable expectations:
1: That's what the warranty is for.
2: That's why marketing gets paid those big bucks so we pull out the wallet and purchase their widgets.
3: If you look at any literature regarding the advertising of Pro Tools, any reasonable person will come away with reasonable expectations.

As far as HDX being compatible with PT12... I believe that it is a reasonable expectation for it to work with at least PT12. Just as it's reasonable that AVID believe's it's justified to require a support plan to be in place in order keep our licenses in place.

What I find unreasonable is that the plain vanilla PT12 software can be bought at an outright price after the support plan lapses, but the HD cannot.
Now here's a question that has come to mind. If I purchase the $599 support plan because I am running HDX hardware, what do I get besides phone support? Suppose the magic smoke gets out of one of the important chips on my HDX card. What does the extra $400 'insure' me against. My hardware is currently past it's warranty. Do I get to call somebody and they get to tell me I'm screwed, or do they get to tell me I can ship it back for repairs? Do I get any kind of a discount for that $400 extra I'm paying annually because I bought AVID hardware? What would be a reasonable expectation in that regard? It IS a 'support plan' isn't it?

I don't have a big problem coming up with a $599 annual 'protection' (sounds like the mob), scheme if that's what it takes to stay current. The only problem I have is that if it runs out the only way to buy back in is to also buy an associated hardware widget. THat's an unreasonable expectation on AVID's part, IMHO.

Bill Denton
01-31-2015, 08:32 AM
Once again, this is all only my opinion and analysis...

What I find unreasonable is that the plain vanilla PT12 software can be bought at an outright price after the support plan lapses, but the HD cannot.

Except you can't...

Keep in mind Avid is trying to solve an accounting problem, and please pay close attention to the sequence of events I'm outlining...

First, you are buying a one year license and a one year service plan. Legally, you may be buying one and the other comes free, but which-is-which is not really important.

This creates a "time limited" service plan, which solves Avid's accounting problem.

Previously, when you purchased a perpetual license, a de facto "open-ended" service plan was created by implication. The way Avid accounted for the revenue from these sales was the accounting problem that led to their getting in trouble with the SEC and getting delisted by NASDAQ.

At the end of one year, your one year license and one year service plan expire...they are no longer in force.

At that time, you may renew your one year license and one year service plan, again creating a time-limited service plan. No accounting problem.

If you do not renew your one year license and one year service plan, you license is replaced by a perpetual license AND a time-limited service plan providing only for "bug fixes", and only until the product reaches Avid's "declared" end of life/service/support/whatever. Since the service contract is not "open ended", no accounting problem.

But, again my opinion, you can accurately evaluate what is happening ONLY if you do so by first understanding the accounting issues in play...

YYR123
01-31-2015, 08:39 AM
They will give HD users an out.....

It will probably be like the upgrades of old, $1000 per major revision.

PT12-13 $1000
PT11-13 $2000

So on and so forth, avid just hasn't publicly stated such info. But once they see the light they will let HD have a way back in w/o a new hardware purchase

deanrichard
01-31-2015, 11:48 AM
Thinking about it, there may be marketing reasons for delaying a Freeze feature. While there are some users who absolutely need hardware DSP, there are some who might be able to get by using the CPU if they can do Freeze. So that feature may actually take sales away from the hardware side.

We'll see what happens.

Dean

aaaah, so that's why Avid is delaying the release of Track Freeze, which by many accounts is pretty much ready to be inflicted upon us.

And there was me thinking it was artificially being delayed to give Avid something to release later in the year to prove that the new support plan 'cool new feature' drip feed regime is working, because they've got nothing else to release later in the year.

It seems I'm way too cynical, thinking that Avid's first practical demonstration of the new world we are moving into is actually to go against the touted intent that 'cool new features' are released as soon as they are ready!

It certainly sounds more like 'trebles all around' in the boardroom rather than a 'win-win' for Avid AND it's customers to me, but what do I know.

deanrichard
01-31-2015, 12:03 PM
Bill, I spent 25 years as a programmer and Project Manager. You're spot on about the difficulty of dong parallel programming and testing interactions between features.

But the idea that a development team can suddenly switch to "serial" programming, and that it will work better is a misconception. You mentioned five programmers working in parallel on five features, and the testing problems it creates. But you can't just take one big new feature and throw those same five programmers at it such that they all work on it at the same time, and expect it to be done in one fifth the time.

Management and marketing think that if a large project will take five developers six months that 10 can do it in three. Often, the opposite is true. Ten programmers may take 8 months to get it done because of the learning curve and the difficulties in working in harmony on a technically difficult task. Also, getting a design consensus and buy-in gets harder the bigger the team gets. So asking those five programmers to work in serial on one feature after another may sound good in theory. In actual practice, it's a flawed strategy.

The good news is that this example is so simplistic that I'm sure Avid will not fall into that trap.

Dean

IMO (not that I claim to know coding) the theory that AVID could do more incremental feature implementation makes sense from the standpoint that they could suss out potential conflicts more easily and maintain more reliability.

I do know programming, and you are absolutely correct...

As with anything else, the fewer the variables, the easier it is to test and trouble-shoot.

No matter how hard we try, maintaining effective communication among programmers during the development process is almost impossible.

Suppose you have an existing application, with five programmers working on different features in parallel, with a single release date, it is almost impossible to test for issues introduced by interactions between the new features before the common release date.

But, when programmers are working in a serial fashion, with a series of "when it's finished" release dates "feature 1" can be released and any issues that come up "in the wild" can be located and addressed before "feature 2" has finished its testing regimen.

All in all, it's a win-win for all involved...

Bob Olhsson
01-31-2015, 01:46 PM
Here's some information from three years ago. According to a friend who used to be product manager at Opcode, Dave and a lot of his old team are still working in the trenches at Avid. Turns out Avid didn't really outsource all of their development, a bit of misinformation that got spread 'round the internets.

https://www.namm.org/library/oral-history/dave-oppenheim

nigelpry
01-31-2015, 03:00 PM
Thinking about it, there may be marketing reasons for delaying a Freeze feature. While there are some users who absolutely need hardware DSP, there are some who might be able to get by using the CPU if they can do Freeze. So that feature may actually take sales away from the hardware side.

We'll see what happens.

Dean

So, basically, you agree. Track Freeze seems to be being artificially delayed.

That speaks volumes about the integrity of Avid's expressed justification for moving to a support plan regime, one of its prime motivations being said to be about moving away from major version upgrade cycles to allow new features to be implemented as soon as they are ready, for the benefit of Avid's customers.

Yeah right, just like withdrawing CPTK was to 'ensure optimum reliability and performance.

ArKay99
01-31-2015, 03:29 PM
Once again, this is all only my opinion and analysis...

What I find unreasonable is that the plain vanilla PT12 software can be bought at an outright price after the support plan lapses, but the HD cannot.

Except you can't...

Keep in mind Avid is trying to solve an accounting problem, and please pay close attention to the sequence of events I'm outlining...

First, you are buying a one year license and a one year service plan. Legally, you may be buying one and the other comes free, but which-is-which is not really important.

This creates a "time limited" service plan, which solves Avid's accounting problem.

Previously, when you purchased a perpetual license, a de facto "open-ended" service plan was created by implication. The way Avid accounted for the revenue from these sales was the accounting problem that led to their getting in trouble with the SEC and getting delisted by NASDAQ.

At the end of one year, your one year license and one year service plan expire...they are no longer in force.

At that time, you may renew your one year license and one year service plan, again creating a time-limited service plan. No accounting problem.

If you do not renew your one year license and one year service plan, you license is replaced by a perpetual license AND a time-limited service plan providing only for "bug fixes", and only until the product reaches Avid's "declared" end of life/service/support/whatever. Since the service contract is not "open ended", no accounting problem.

But, again my opinion, you can accurately evaluate what is happening ONLY if you do so by first understanding the accounting issues in play...

Bill, this is what I am referring to below. And I didn't know that AVID had issues with the SEC and and NASDAQ... I've been out of circulation regarding Pro Tools inside news for a while.
They will give HD users an out.....

It will probably be like the upgrades of old, $1000 per major revision.

PT12-13 $1000
PT11-13 $2000

So on and so forth, avid just hasn't publicly stated such info. But once they see the light they will let HD have a way back in w/o a new hardware purchase

propower
01-31-2015, 03:40 PM
What I find unreasonable is that the plain vanilla PT12 software can be bought at an outright price after the support plan lapses, but the HD cannot.

Yep - this has been the crux all along - often obscured - but there it is.

The only problem I have is that if it runs out the only way to buy back in is to also buy an associated hardware widget. THat's an unreasonable expectation on AVID's part, IMHO.

Although what you say is "implied" AVID has not said these things explicitly - they just say - we'll tell y'all what the deal is ... later.... Though - as you know - I am only saying this so i won't get fined :-)...

Southsidemusic
01-31-2015, 04:30 PM
Yep - this has been the crux all along - often obscured - but there it is.



Although what you say is "implied" AVID has not said these things explicitly - they just say - we'll tell y'all what the deal is ... later.... Though - as you know - I am only saying this so i won't get fined :-)...

Hey

The whole HD situation is a really sad story and why Avid doesn't clear this up instead of letting thread after thread after thread grow and grow with guess work and pondering is totally INSANE!!! How can a Huge Audio Company like Avid say:

Buy this plan now and we will let you know what you get later :rolleyes:

Even though we know parts of the HD situation we don't know the most important thing which is what happens if and when people let the plan/subscription/support plan/expertplan etc etc etc lapse!!!

This is a Huge issue and not letting people know BEFORE announcing this new licensing scheme is beyond me ... FAR FAR BEYOND ME ... Possibly soo far as all the way over to Australia so Avid - Kill this guessing and pleading and worrying and let us know. It has been quite a while now and just saying / PT11HD users doesn't need to descide until 2015/12/31 is not good enough. People need to PLAN, Yes Plan for the future and this whole deal is a worry for some as smaller studios and homestudios doesn't have an ocean of money floating around.

I really hope that whatever statement Avid makes regarding the HD route is a fair and reasonable one as many many many users are getting soo fed up with these tactics they are jumping off for real. I know several studios here who have invested a lot of money into their Avid gear who have started getting the Nuage system and boy does it look sweet :-)

Anyway Here is to hoping :o

Bill Denton
01-31-2015, 09:18 PM
Hey

The whole HD situation is a really sad story and why Avid doesn't clear this up instead of letting thread after thread after thread grow and grow with guess work and pondering is totally INSANE!!! How can a Huge Audio Company like Avid say:

Buy this plan now and we will let you know what you get later :rolleyes:

Even though we know parts of the HD situation we don't know the most important thing which is what happens if and when people let the plan/subscription/support plan/expertplan etc etc etc lapse!!!

This is a Huge issue and not letting people know BEFORE announcing this new licensing scheme is beyond me ... FAR FAR BEYOND ME ... Possibly soo far as all the way over to Australia so Avid - Kill this guessing and pleading and worrying and let us know. It has been quite a while now and just saying / PT11HD users doesn't need to descide until 2015/12/31 is not good enough. People need to PLAN, Yes Plan for the future and this whole deal is a worry for some as smaller studios and homestudios doesn't have an ocean of money floating around.

I really hope that whatever statement Avid makes regarding the HD route is a fair and reasonable one as many many many users are getting soo fed up with these tactics they are jumping off for real. I know several studios here who have invested a lot of money into their Avid gear who have started getting the Nuage system and boy does it look sweet :-)

Anyway Here is to hoping :o

I could be wrong, but I've got the feeling avid may have gotten "caught out without a precedent" on the HDX thing.

As has been noted, much of this stuff, such as the "service plan" model, has been SOP in the high-end pro software world for decades, I can't recall any situations where "dedicated" hardware was involved.

Most of the time, in that marketplace, the license is "hard-tied" to the service plan...drop the service plan and the software quits working.

The only time I remember hardware being involved was some civil engineering software where you had to buy a digitizer from the software vendor. But it was a standard "off the shelf" piece of hardware from somebody like HP...the software vendor just made you buy it from them so they could jack the price up.

But, I doubt if Avid's biggest customers are worried about what would happen if they let their service plan(s) lapse...they've probably already plugged the service plan cost into their budgets for the next five years.

But it's a very legitimate concern for the smaller guys...

guitardom
01-31-2015, 10:22 PM
So, basically, you agree. Track Freeze seems to be being artificially delayed.

That speaks volumes about the integrity of Avid's expressed justification for moving to a support plan regime, one of its prime motivations being said to be about moving away from major version upgrade cycles to allow new features to be implemented as soon as they are ready, for the benefit of Avid's customers.

Yeah right, just like withdrawing CPTK was to 'ensure optimum reliability and performance.

There is nothing to imply freeze is being "postponed" or "postponed on purpose". Devs all the time show development software before its nearly ready to release. Some of this speculation is getting downright silly.

nigelpry
01-31-2015, 11:05 PM
There is nothing to imply freeze is being "postponed" or "postponed on purpose". Devs all the time show development software before its nearly ready to release. Some of this speculation is getting downright silly.

Maybe it's more complex a feature than I appreciate, I accept that, of course, but ...

1) It has reportedly been demoed around shows for a year already,
2) Reports from recent demos have been along the lines 'it's ready to go',
3) These aren't 'devs' demoing work in progress, they are marketing types, in big shows, who more likely wouldn't be risked with flaky half-developed software,
3) It won't be in 12.0,

Then think of track freeze in the context of the new support plan regime ...

4) Avid says it is no longer be tied to major upgrade development cycles,
5) This allows new features to be made available more quickly,
6) Avid also says new features will arrive 'throughout' 2015,

Finally, consider this point ...

6) What single other new feature, other than the cloud/marketplace/everywhere type stuff that is all comng out in 12.0, has been mentioned or demoed anywhere by Avid?

Of course it's speculation, and it MAY be 'downright silly' but, then again, it may not. The facts as far as we know them support either conclusion. I invite people to draw their own conclusions based on recent experience of Avid's business 'game plan'. Personally, I don't think it is remotely beyond Avid to do exactly as I have suggested.

You might also want to consider that, in the furore immediately after the new licensing and support plan announcement, quite a few people suggested that my subsequent posts on the subject were rubbish, but, so far, all of them have proved to be accurate.

Still, I'm happy to accept that your analysis of the situation may be more accurate than mine ;-)

noiseboyuk
02-01-2015, 02:14 AM
I'm with you, Nigel. It's hard to think of another product which has more opaque information given on its product launch. We don't know the date or the features at launch - the only thing anyone can do is read the runes, frankly.

I just looked again on the website and the only 2 "features" that seems to be there at launch are the licensing and the shop. The rest is vague "coming soon" or "get ready". And, come to think of it, I now can't see any mention of track freeze anywhere - has it vanished again?

binty
02-01-2015, 04:36 AM
Buy this plan now and we will let you know what you get later :rolleyes:
Nancy Pelosi OBAMACARE.
http://youtu.be/hV-05TLiiLU;):-):D

musicman691
02-01-2015, 05:00 AM
There is nothing to imply freeze is being "postponed" or "postponed on purpose". Devs all the time show development software before its nearly ready to release. Some of this speculation is getting downright silly.
But because of Avid's non-response on this all we have IS speculation and none of it is silly. Track freeze has been demoed in one form or another by Gowing, Cariddi and others for about a year or so. In all that time I don't think they ever had a Bill Gates 'whoa' moment (Windows crashed during the big onstage rollout) with PT crashing or otherwise going south.

Avid can't or won't come out and say what's up. All we have for most everything in PT12 is 'coming soon'. The only things definitely in PT12 are some of the fx hijacked from the 11 Rack. Other than that everything is in the Slate 'coming soon' mode.

Bill Denton
02-01-2015, 06:01 AM
C'mon, guys...

More than once I have presented what appeared to be "fully working demos" of products at trade shows, but...

I never claimed it was a "fully working demo", my brochures and stuff referred to it as a "technology preview", but if someone thought it was a "fully working demo" I didn't try to dis-aver them...I did the demo, no one else was allowed to touch the computer...since I was writing the system I knew what worked and didn't work...and I knew what stuff I had "faked-up" to make it look like some stuff worked that actually didn't.

But it's often a mistake to think that what you see is what actually is.

And, from what I've read here and in other forums, Avid never said it would be in PT 12 at its introduction.

So, while people are free to assume whatever they wish, their assumptions may be totally unwarranted...

Bob Olhsson
02-01-2015, 08:37 AM
Thinking about this, unless I have it completely wrong, the ONLY people affected at all by this are those who are now upgrading TO 11.

For less than the cost of previous upgrades, they are getting 10 and 11, both known quantities along with a years worth of 12 upgrades which hasn't been released and we don't know very much about.

Why all the drama? Seriously, Avid has no reason to even decide on the details of HD renewals until the people who just upgraded from 9 or 10 start being asked to renew their service plans a year from now. People not on a service plan have a year to see if they even want 12.

Now there may or may not be reason to scream and yell at Avid next December but at this point it's all pretty ridiculous.

Tim R.
02-01-2015, 09:18 AM
Thinking about this, unless I have it completely wrong, the ONLY people affected at all by this are those who are now upgrading TO 11.

Not exactly Bob. As the title of this thread says, this is about the cost of upgrading from PT11 to PT12 which (In my opinion, unfairly) costs the SAME as someone upgrading from PT10 or even PT9! Some people actually paid $1000 to upgrade to PT11 a year ago and they are getting NO CREDIT for that upgrade cost.

nickthepick
02-01-2015, 09:19 AM
I have argued more about the "Rollout" not why the business plan. Although these things tends to affect the retailer. I am sure "us Apple users" have been bitten by the major updates. I still knew quite folks that just retired their G5 systems. I have applauded Avid for opening up software and giving greater flexibility. This is one reason I came back to Pro Tools. I revisited a Pensado /Avid conversation. I could tell with the advent of PRO TOOLS 11... things were going to change. We shall all see how the 2015 Avid works, but without an industry where the musician / song writers are limited by their cash flow... Music has always about the song & the performance (live.) I'm feeling some uncertainty with the immediate future of the Internet. I guess... I set with the coming months. I bought into PT11... planning on upgrading converters & speakers. The stability of PT11 seems to be doing fine for what I'm and doing at home. While I am not happy about my deal with Avid /Sweetwater... I have the tools to mix/edit/record music. Besides I can still be musically effective working between Pro Tools and Logic 9.

propower
02-01-2015, 12:12 PM
Thinking about this, unless I have it completely wrong, the ONLY people affected at all by this are those who are now upgrading TO 11.


Why all the drama? Seriously, Avid has no reason to even decide on the details of HD renewals until the people who just upgraded from 9 or 10 start being asked to renew their service plans a year from now. People not on a service plan have a year to see if they even want 12.


I disagree: IMO I am affected.

1) I own PT11HD (after buying many 10's of thousands of $$$ worth of AVID/Digidesign stuff over 15 years) and the terms of my ownership have been dramatically changed as well as the equity of my current system. At the end of the year I can no longer just upgrade when I want - I must join the support plan or my license will be frozen at the current rev.

2) I used to upgrade every 2 years or so - with a support plan the cost of my yearly ownership has ~ doubled.

3) If I choose not to join a support plan I have not been given the information as to what the ongoing monthly or yearly costs might be - but expect them to be between 3X to 4X what I currently pay on a yearly basis.

4) The direction of the major new software features (Cloud features) is fascinating but is not anything I use today. So I would have normally passed on this revision.

5) Since getting into the Soundgrid DSP system I feel my need/desire for an HDX system in the future is going away (I was TDM for 14 years), This means I may very well go to a PT Vanilla system or other DAW in the future. Regardless - the resale value of my Current HD Native rig is also affected by the lack of any information about transferability of my PTHD + software system.

6) Not to mention the fact that PT9,10 people not only got a heck of an upgrade deal - but get the next coming version as well while the 11's of today get no break whatsoever.

And what might be any good reason why these few pieces of licensing information are kept from me???
- They don't know what they are doing? ridiculous
- They don't know what the new pricing/terms will be? Ridiculous
- They don't care about users like me - that's the one that I hear....
- Sheer arrogance that "We are ProTools - fill in the tag line" - yep - that's what I hear too

So - saying none are affected or "What is all this drama" is also (IMO) kind of ridiculous. I treat my investments very seriously and when one of them is changed - and I can't even get the whole story - guess what - I get annoyed. When it goes on and on - month after month - 1000's of posts just like me - I get even more annoyed.

PS - I also loudly applaud Southsidemusic's post #106 !!!!

roberts
02-02-2015, 11:17 AM
Buy this plan now and we will let you know what you get later :rolleyes:


You have a keen eye for the obvious :D

Bill Denton
02-02-2015, 12:53 PM
I disagree: IMO I am affected.

1) I own PT11HD (after buying many 10's of thousands of $$$ worth of AVID/Digidesign stuff over 15 years) and the terms of my ownership have been dramatically changed as well as the equity of my current system. At the end of the year I can no longer just upgrade when I want - I must join the support plan or my license will be frozen at the current rev.

2) I used to upgrade every 2 years or so - with a support plan the cost of my yearly ownership has ~ doubled.

3) If I choose not to join a support plan I have not been given the information as to what the ongoing monthly or yearly costs might be - but expect them to be between 3X to 4X what I currently pay on a yearly basis.

4) The direction of the major new software features (Cloud features) is fascinating but is not anything I use today. So I would have normally passed on this revision.

5) Since getting into the Soundgrid DSP system I feel my need/desire for an HDX system in the future is going away (I was TDM for 14 years), This means I may very well go to a PT Vanilla system or other DAW in the future. Regardless - the resale value of my Current HD Native rig is also affected by the lack of any information about transferability of my PTHD + software system.

6) Not to mention the fact that PT9,10 people not only got a heck of an upgrade deal - but get the next coming version as well while the 11's of today get no break whatsoever.

And what might be any good reason why these few pieces of licensing information are kept from me???
- They don't know what they are doing? ridiculous
- They don't know what the new pricing/terms will be? Ridiculous
- They don't care about users like me - that's the one that I hear....
- Sheer arrogance that "We are ProTools - fill in the tag line" - yep - that's what I hear too

So - saying none are affected or "What is all this drama" is also (IMO) kind of ridiculous. I treat my investments very seriously and when one of them is changed - and I can't even get the whole story - guess what - I get annoyed. When it goes on and on - month after month - 1000's of posts just like me - I get even more annoyed.

PS - I also loudly applaud Southsidemusic's post #106 !!!!

... the terms of my ownership have been dramatically changed ...

Nope...you've still got what you bought...that hasn't changed at all unless you've subsequently upgraded your software, and that was your choice.

propower
02-02-2015, 01:10 PM
I'll actually give that one to you Bill... (though you made a good point - you pretty much missed the point as well)

Maybe not the terms (in a legal sense) - but for sure what I have come to expect after 15 years of ownership has certainly changed! For sure the equity - resale value and transferability is certainly changing - for sure the company direction and ongoing costs are changing.... but

Regardless... you highlight the pointlessness of my continuing to post about what has already been said in a million different ways - like the Super Bowl (from a Seattle area guys POV) - its just frustration at things that I have extremely little or no power to change.

Time for a new leaf - time to concentrate on why I own and care about all this stuff - and let all this -- go...

lexaudio
02-05-2015, 01:38 PM
I'll actually give that one to you Bill... (though you made a good point - you pretty much missed the point as well)

Maybe not the terms (in a legal sense) - but for sure what I have come to expect after 15 years of ownership has certainly changed! For sure the equity - resale value and transferability is certainly changing - for sure the company direction and ongoing costs are changing.... but

Regardless... you highlight the pointlessness of my continuing to post about what has already been said in a million different ways - like the Super Bowl (from a Seattle area guys POV) - its just frustration at things that I have extremely little or no power to change.

Time for a new leaf - time to concentrate on why I own and care about all this stuff - and let all this -- go...

Your not the only one:

http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2014/11/3/poll-shows-about-half-of-all-pro-tools-owners-will-not-be-up.html

And that is just the tip.

felipeeler
02-06-2015, 09:23 AM
Sorry for one more question in the middle of it all...
I have Pro Tools 11, what happens if I buy the US$199,99 annual plan once and do not renew it:

a) My license will stop upgrading but will continue to work;
b) My license will stop upgrading and working;

Thanks for the help guys.

YYR123
02-06-2015, 09:59 AM
My license will stop upgrading but will continue to work;


This happens

Bob Olhsson
02-06-2015, 10:01 AM
They've said your license will stop upgrading, will continue to work and will continue to get bug-fix updates, just not additional new features.

OliverH
02-06-2015, 05:53 PM
They've said your license will stop upgrading, will continue to work and will continue to get bug-fix updates, just not additional new features.

Ok this makes some sense.... (didn't say I liked it) but what EXACTLY does "no additional new features" imply? In other words, let's say I pony up for a PT HD 12 update plan for $599 or whatever it's going to cost for HD before 2015's end... and then I let it lapse over the next year+ time after that.... does that mean that I'll definitely still always have access to maintenance updates. i.e. 12.1, 12.1.1, 12.2, etc...until Avid stops providing bug fix updates for v 12, and simply just won't get access to a major update version. i.e. PT HD 13, etc without repurchasing the software outright?? This is of course assuming that "new features" only come in major pre-decimal place number updates, i.e. from version 12 to 13.

With Avid's new subscription/update plan... i get the feeling that new features might not just be relegated to major version updates but instead could appear in what we're calling "bug fix" updates too. Kind of like when elastic audio was introduced in mid PT7 life cycle.....:rolleyes:

Why can't Avid meet in the middle with this stuff and do like what Waves has done with WUP? You buy a window of update access for a year... but when you need it. Your Waves licenses don't lock or expire or anything. You just buy the update plan when you have a need to update. So simple. Makes sense to me and I feel fine funding their software development rather than feeling like I'm entitled to everything they ever release forever because I bought Renaissance Compressor back in 2005....

But what Avid's doing just feels really extreme and doesn't seem like it'll build loyalty amongst their non-corporate or "major clientele" base. Sell to the masses, eat with the classes... but hey, maybe they're in a dire position and this is the gamble they're willing to take in order to stay afloat. Just don't really get it otherwise...

Bob Olhsson
02-06-2015, 06:17 PM
There are TWO different plans. One is a support and update plan, the other is a subscription plan.

The new features are supposed to be implemented over time rather than releasing a bunch of them at once every few years like they have in the past.

OliverH
02-06-2015, 06:27 PM
I get that, but ostensibly in 1.5 years I'll have to pay something like $1K to buy PT HD 12.x in order to have track freeze, for instance? Ouch.

Welp, you need an oil change... But you're gonna have to buy a new car in order to get it.

lexaudio
02-06-2015, 08:08 PM
Ok this makes some sense.... (didn't say I liked it) but what EXACTLY does "no additional new features" imply? In other words, let's say I pony up for a PT HD 12 update plan for $599 or whatever it's going to cost for HD before 2015's end... and then I let it lapse over the next year+ time after that.... does that mean that I'll definitely still always have access to maintenance updates. i.e. 12.1, 12.1.1, 12.2, etc...until Avid stops providing bug fix updates for v 12, and simply just won't get access to a major update version. i.e. PT HD 13, etc without repurchasing the software outright?? This is of course assuming that "new features" only come in major pre-decimal place number updates, i.e. from version 12 to 13.

But what Avid's doing just feels really extreme and doesn't seem like it'll build loyalty amongst their non-corporate or "major clientele" base. Sell to the masses, eat with the classes... but hey, maybe they're in a dire position and this is the gamble they're willing to take in order to stay afloat. Just don't really get it otherwise...

No. Not according to their License FAQ. Let's say you do an annual plan on a perpetual license. And this pertains to a perpetual license.
If your annual subscription lapses, then your license will work with the last version before your annal subscription expired and wasn't renewed.

So, say it was 12.1.7. And the next week they release 12.1.8. You will not be able to get any updates after 12.1.7. In other words, your perpetual license is froze at 12.1.7 forever. You cannot get back onto an annual plan with that license and you can't EVER upgrade that license either.

You would have to buy a new license or get a monthly subscription. With the subscription, if that lapses, you can't use pro tools anymore.
Currently a new PT vanilla license is 899. No word on what the HD perpetual license cost will be or if AVID will even offer it.

So yeah, they are pretty much sticking it to you.

Tim R.
02-06-2015, 09:00 PM
With the subscription, if that lapses, you can't use pro tools anymore.

Don't think this is necessarily true. When your "Support Plan" lapses (as you said), you can start the "Rental Plan" (you called it the "Subscription"). In this case you (I suspect) would NOT be required to surrender your old (frozen in time) license to "Rent" the current one (Since anyone can RENT the current version license anytime). SO in theory (perhaps with a few hoops) you could revert to your old (perpetual) version license anytime.

lexaudio
02-06-2015, 09:11 PM
Don't think this is necessarily true. When your "Support Plan" lapses (as you said), you can start the "Rental Plan" (you called it the "Subscription"). In this case you (I suspect) would NOT be required to surrender your old (frozen in time) license to "Rent" the current one (Since anyone can RENT the current version license anytime). SO in theory (perhaps with a few hoops) you could revert to your old (perpetual) version license anytime.

true. But what if you perp license has a bug that you can't update. You get a subscription to fix that bug, that lapses, you can't use that version anymore as it is a cloud based license.

If you don't have a perp license, then what? What if you are where there is no internet?
Your internet goes out?

Well, i guess the bigger users will have perp licenses. Even still, if your perp license lapses you are stuck forever.

Not very attractive.

WKG
02-06-2015, 10:18 PM
Welp, you need an oil change... But you're gonna have to buy a new car in order to get it.

Pretty much it...

roberts
02-06-2015, 10:24 PM
so if someone has an expired Pro Tools plan 2 or 3 years down the road and they want to get an upgrade - Avid is not going to let them upgrade to the current version.
Not going to happen no company is going to say to their past customer sorry we're not going to take your money - you keep it.
Maybe that's what they're saying now but it's insane - no company is going to do that Avid will be more than happy to take your cash and give you another support plan.

WKG
02-06-2015, 10:29 PM
so if someone has an expired Pro Tools plan 2 or 3 years down the road and they want to get an upgrade - Avid is not going to let them upgrade to the current version.
Not going to happen no company is going to say to their past customer sorry we're not going to take your money - you keep it.
Maybe that's what they're saying now but it's insane - no company is going to do that Avid will be more than happy to take your cash and give you another support plan.

You would be able to update but you would have to buy Pro Tools again at the full price.

Darryl Ramm
02-06-2015, 10:48 PM
Oh well we will all be able to reminisce in future and tell our grandkids of this great software product we used to use and the company that ended up owning it that amazingly went out of its way to chase it's customers away....

lexaudio
02-07-2015, 12:10 AM
so if someone has an expired Pro Tools plan 2 or 3 years down the road and they want to get an upgrade - Avid is not going to let them upgrade to the current version.
Not going to happen no company is going to say to their past customer sorry we're not going to take your money - you keep it.
Maybe that's what they're saying now but it's insane - no company is going to do that Avid will be more than happy to take your cash and give you another support plan.

Its pretty dumb right. And they haven't released pricing for HD users either. The 899 price is for vanilla.
I'm guessing that to rebuy an HD license it will be double.

AVID loves to take your money. But that's the thing. 599 a year, HD users and you miss the renewal. Oops.
Ok, you want updates, and the ability to upgrade.

It is now triple the price for you to "get back in our good graces". Sorry you ended up in the hospital with a burst appendix that almost killed you.
But that isn't our problem.

So fork it over, or enjoy what you have.

Read thier FAQ. If you lapse on a perpetual license, you can continue to use the last version there was before you lapsed.
You get no further updates (bug fixes) and you lose the ability to upgrade on that license FOREVER.

The only way to regain updates and upgrades is to purchase a brand new license that you must keep in good standing with AVID or the process repeats over again.

God forbid, one year your in the hospital and the next is a slow year.

As Pro Tools used to called Slow tools, now AVID is called, Bend Over!

lexaudio
02-07-2015, 12:16 AM
Oh well we will all be able to reminisce in future and tell our grandkids of this great software product we used to use and the company that ended up owning it that amazingly went out of its way to chase it's customers away....

We'll have to see what some of their "biggest" customers have to say to them.

Standards change all the time. If the bigs start changing their standards, the rest will slowly follow.

Nuendo was a really big threat to PT when V2 came out, but it just wasn't there. Jon Ross used it exclusively and I think he still uses it.

But until that time comes, or something changes, we'll just have to make our best judgement on what is best for us as individuals, and if the bigs make a change, then we'll know what to do then.

I will agree, that AVID is definitely chasing customers away.

nickthepick
02-07-2015, 12:32 AM
If I can, I may upgrade at the end of the year. There's not a company that can stay in business if people can't afford to buy the product. Really it's about the song or the dialogue. I think that I've seen more studios close than open. Up until 6 months ago there were people still using a G5 Mac doing great recordings. I really want to see this Avid Everywhere work. What other features can any DAW makers add? There are people in the coming year that will buy into the program, largely because they have 7.4 and it's time to upgrade. 12HDX will be the last system they will buy.

Tim R.
02-07-2015, 06:56 AM
The only way to regain updates and upgrades is to purchase a brand new license that you must keep in good standing with AVID or the process repeats over again.

OR You can (as stated in the FAQ) start on the Rental plan.

For some perspective, here are a number of articles on Software Subscription models and their advantages/disadvantages. The overall opinion seems to be that the advantage is primarily to the Software company (though there ARE certain advantages to end users as well). It IS our future so get used to it (or move).
http://www.bloomberg.com/professional/kc-post/software-moves-toward-subscription-model/
http://venturebeat.com/2013/11/04/subscription-model-challenges/
http://www.techradar.com/us/news/world-of-tech/management/why-a-subscription-model-could-be-the-future-for-all-businesses-1249302
http://www.cio.com/article/2369982/software-as-a-service/what-the-new-world-of-subscription-based-software-means-for-you.html

Drew Mazurek
02-07-2015, 07:16 AM
The overall opinion seems to be that the advantage is primarily to the Software company (though there ARE certain advantages to end users as well).

The primary goal of the people making these decisions is to remain the people making these decisions.

Here's hoping the second part turns out to be true. (users)

paul007
02-07-2015, 09:41 AM
OR You can (as stated in the FAQ) start on the Rental plan.

For some perspective, here are a number of articles on Software Subscription models and their advantages/disadvantages. The overall opinion seems to be that the advantage is primarily to the Software company (though there ARE certain advantages to end users as well). It IS our future so get used to it (or move).


Subscription is slowly becoming a concept to consider.
(though the price for HD is really steep to be competitive)

What remains absolutely RIDICULOUS is that -if you skip a year- your current PT version license is frozen to eternity.

Especially if an up-to-date license is only to be obtained with purchase of new hardware! That is simply equal to sabotaging your client in today's world of HW, OS and plugin compatibility.

This policy is *much too harsh* for long time clients. It will eventually hurt Avid's reputation as it did to Waves with WUP, maybe even more seriously.

There should be a kinder way to get SupportPlan "drop-outs" back on board.

Darryl Ramm
02-07-2015, 09:57 AM
[cut to cute girl sitting on grandpa's lap] "So grandpa, you brought their expensive hardware and software bundles, and then if you did not keep paying for support you did not want so you went and used a competitors software?"

Drew Mazurek
02-07-2015, 10:30 AM
There should be a kinder way to get "drop-outs" back on board.

Getting back "on board" is the subscription. That's the new way.

Avid needs your money on a regular basis to stay profitable management thinks. This is supposed to make for faster software development as well.

Bill Denton
02-07-2015, 11:16 AM
OR You can (as stated in the FAQ) start on the Rental plan.

For some perspective, here are a number of articles on Software Subscription models and their advantages/disadvantages. The overall opinion seems to be that the advantage is primarily to the Software company (though there ARE certain advantages to end users as well). It IS our future so get used to it (or move).
http://www.bloomberg.com/professional/kc-post/software-moves-toward-subscription-model/
http://venturebeat.com/2013/11/04/subscription-model-challenges/
http://www.techradar.com/us/news/world-of-tech/management/why-a-subscription-model-could-be-the-future-for-all-businesses-1249302
http://www.cio.com/article/2369982/software-as-a-service/what-the-new-world-of-subscription-based-software-means-for-you.html

From the second link...

1. Revenue recognition

The subscription business model is mature enough that Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) address it. However:

Subscriptions are at the intersection between software and services, requiring expert judgment as to the “right” revenue recognition approach.

It can be unclear how specific GAAP apply to many revenue recognition situations.

Subscription pricing model changes (e.g. from a fixed price to actual usage) may be easy to make, but may have revenue recognition implications.

This is what I've tried to get you guys to understand...

It was revenue recognition issues that eventually resulted in Avid getting delisted.

While I understood Avid's reasons for moving to the "service plan" model, I wasn't quite sure why they were also adding a "rental" model.

After reading the material in these links, it kinda makes more sense...

From an accounting standpoint, the "service plan" strikes me as a safer alternative. As I've previously noted, this model has been around for a while, and I have not heard of any GAAP issues (but that doesn't mean there aren't any).

I'm thinking Avid may be looking at the "rental" plan as a means of increasing revenue. But they may very well be setting themselves up for another round of accounting issues if they aren't very damned careful!

And I think that may be a mistake.

The "rental" model may be a means of dealing with some changing business models, and perhaps preserving some revenue.

Next time you watch a movie, play close attention to the credits.

They will probably start with something like a "Fox" or "Sony" or "Universal" logo...

Buried down a ways in the credits you'll see something like "An eJack O'Matic Film".

What that means is that while "Fox" or "Sony" or "Universal" are distributing the picture, the movie was actually made by a corporation named "eJack O'Matic".

And more and more, corporations like "eJack O'Matic" are what is known as "virtual corporations". A virtual corporation is typically formed for the very specific purpose of doing a single project (a lot of major bands used them for their tours). Once the project is completed and the "big" money is counted, the corporation is dissolved.

And since a virtual corporation will only exist for a fixed and relatively short period of time, they do their damnedest to avoid buying anything...they try rent or lease everything they need to make the picture.

And it would be in the virtual corporation market where Avid could benefit from having a rental model in place.

Of course...the whole thing depends upon Avid recognizing the incredibly big azz Achilles heel they keep enlarging everyday.

Think, you're telling us that you sold this, but 20 of your customers are showing us web pages indicating they actually bought that.

I don't think Avid's lower-level people know enough about the liabilities they are creating, and I don't think the high-level people are aware they are being created. But, eventually somebody other than me will figure it out, and unlike me, those other folks will be bringing in sleaze-bag lawyers by the dozens...

Bob Olhsson
02-07-2015, 03:12 PM
The movie business never buys anything. Broadcast has also moved to that model. Dealers or lease companies have been renting systems to most of these folks all along. It makes perfect sense for Avid to take that rental business in house.

lexaudio
02-07-2015, 05:30 PM
The movie business never buys anything. Broadcast has also moved to that model. Dealers or lease companies have been renting systems to most of these folks all along. It makes perfect sense for Avid to take that rental business in house.

Not even remotely true. For either. You are thinking of production companies, and that makes sense because you start a production that lasts for a year, what is the point of buying it?

Movie studios, facilities and broadcast facilities however do buy. They intern rent their facilities including the hardware to the production companies.

You honestly think Warner, Universal, Paramount rent? LOL.
NBC, CNN, FOX broadcast rent?

That would be the worst business model of all and no profits made ever.

A record label contracts (rents) a recording studio who "owns" the gear to record said artist.
They don't build and buy equipment for one artist.

Production companies, labels own rights. Studios own the gear.
And from the studio POV, if everything becomes "rental based", choices will be few are far between in the future.
Watch MS sink as they move to the OS subscription. When users can't use their computers until they pay a fee, Apple will be taking them all in.

lexaudio
02-07-2015, 05:35 PM
From the second link...

1. Revenue recognition

The subscription business model is mature enough that Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) address it. However:

Subscriptions are at the intersection between software and services, requiring expert judgment as to the “right” revenue recognition approach.

It can be unclear how specific GAAP apply to many revenue recognition situations.

Subscription pricing model changes (e.g. from a fixed price to actual usage) may be easy to make, but may have revenue recognition implications.

This is what I've tried to get you guys to understand...

It was revenue recognition issues that eventually resulted in Avid getting delisted.

While I understood Avid's reasons for moving to the "service plan" model, I wasn't quite sure why they were also adding a "rental" model.

After reading the material in these links, it kinda makes more sense...

From an accounting standpoint, the "service plan" strikes me as a safer alternative. As I've previously noted, this model has been around for a while, and I have not heard of any GAAP issues (but that doesn't mean there aren't any).

I'm thinking Avid may be looking at the "rental" plan as a means of increasing revenue. But they may very well be setting themselves up for another round of accounting issues if they aren't very damned careful!

And I think that may be a mistake.

The "rental" model may be a means of dealing with some changing business models, and perhaps preserving some revenue.

Next time you watch a movie, play close attention to the credits.

They will probably start with something like a "Fox" or "Sony" or "Universal" logo...

Buried down a ways in the credits you'll see something like "An eJack O'Matic Film".

What that means is that while "Fox" or "Sony" or "Universal" are distributing the picture, the movie was actually made by a corporation named "eJack O'Matic".

And more and more, corporations like "eJack O'Matic" are what is known as "virtual corporations". A virtual corporation is typically formed for the very specific purpose of doing a single project (a lot of major bands used them for their tours). Once the project is completed and the "big" money is counted, the corporation is dissolved.

And since a virtual corporation will only exist for a fixed and relatively short period of time, they do their damnedest to avoid buying anything...they try rent or lease everything they need to make the picture.

And it would be in the virtual corporation market where Avid could benefit from having a rental model in place.

Of course...the whole thing depends upon Avid recognizing the incredibly big azz Achilles heel they keep enlarging everyday.

Think, you're telling us that you sold this, but 20 of your customers are showing us web pages indicating they actually bought that.

I don't think Avid's lower-level people know enough about the liabilities they are creating, and I don't think the high-level people are aware they are being created. But, eventually somebody other than me will figure it out, and unlike me, those other folks will be bringing in sleaze-bag lawyers by the dozens...

Very well said Bill. And very true. I think AVID's quarterly's are due next month, so we'll just have to take a look at their operating revenue to see the true nature of where the company stands.

The last public quarterly was a year ago, and it did not look very good.

mds1001
02-07-2015, 11:09 PM
I'm sure this has been covered but I haven't seen it specifically stated. I own PT10. If I upgrade today to 11, do I get in on the $199/year thing and get 12 for 'free' when it comes out? If I can do this, when does that option expire?

Thanks!

Drew Mazurek
02-08-2015, 05:29 AM
If I upgrade today to 11, do I get in on the $199/year thing and get 12 for 'free' when it comes out? If I can do this, when does that option expire?

Thanks!

Part of your upgrade cost includes 1 year of a plan, so yes, you're correct.

They've announced PT12 at NAMM, so it's going to come out with a few months.

mds1001
02-08-2015, 11:27 AM
Great, thanks for confirming. It is definitely confusing. Is it true I have until the end of 2015 for that to be true or do I need to hop on 11 before 12 comes out?

nickthepick
02-08-2015, 01:27 PM
I've been told that Avid will continue to offer "bug fixes." So, 11.3 or 11.4.6. That will only involve PT11 current features. So, all of us that bought PT11 will not see ANY features only a bug fix or two. If can afford it by the end of 2015, I will upgrade if it's $200. After "12" I believe there will not be "number" but names for upgrades and not 13 & etc. I am sure there will plenty to discuss in 2016.

Sugarnutz
02-08-2015, 02:31 PM
The funny thing is I used to pay close to $199 for a reel of 2" tape which got you +/- 30 minutes @ 15 & 15 minutes @ 30. Go figure?

mds1001
02-08-2015, 02:48 PM
Yeah, we 'pros' certainly seem bent out of shape over $199/year.

nickthepick
02-08-2015, 03:30 PM
It might work for new customers; I just came back to Pro Tools native. I started seeing "project" studios using it with really good converters / Thunderbolt. Besides, I can compose in Logic & mix in PT11.

Bill Denton
02-08-2015, 07:52 PM
Not even remotely true. For either. You are thinking of production companies, and that makes sense because you start a production that lasts for a year, what is the point of buying it?

Movie studios, facilities and broadcast facilities however do buy. They intern rent their facilities including the hardware to the production companies.

You honestly think Warner, Universal, Paramount rent? LOL.
NBC, CNN, FOX broadcast rent?

That would be the worst business model of all and no profits made ever.

A record label contracts (rents) a recording studio who "owns" the gear to record said artist.
They don't build and buy equipment for one artist.

Production companies, labels own rights. Studios own the gear.
And from the studio POV, if everything becomes "rental based", choices will be few are far between in the future.
Watch MS sink as they move to the OS subscription. When users can't use their computers until they pay a fee, Apple will be taking them all in.

I don't know about movies, but Bob is 100% correct on leasing by broadcasters.

When I got out of radio in 1978, stations in even the smallest markets had begun leasing their equipment.

IIRC, Gates, maker of the original Sta-Level and then king of the hill, or an affiliated leasing company, would lease you everything from turntables to transmitters.

I recall running the numbers for a couple of stations the company I worked for (we bought one)...that was when AM was still "top dawg", we were flush with cash, and we were buying cheap, so leasing didn't make sense for us.

But I'm sure it would have when FM started taking over, and a lot of guys needed to upgrade to play with the big-boys in their markets...leasing would have been the way to go.

As I said, I don't know how it is with movies, but I know broadcasters have been leasing for at least 35 years...

deanrichard
02-08-2015, 08:51 PM
Drew -

Your comment is true, but usually the focus is very short-term. From my experience in the corporate world, it is rare for a decision or policy to be implemented with an eye to the long-term implications. It is almost always about stock price and keeping it high into the next quarter.

If Avid is like other corporations, those that implement subscription plans will probably not be around, so they won't care if the long-term effect of these plans is a gradual erosion of the user base. They can either retire with a nice golden parachute, or oversee a sell off of the company that greatly benefits themselves and upper executives.

Short term profit is all that matters.

Dean


The primary goal of the people making these decisions is to remain the people making these decisions.

Here's hoping the second part turns out to be true. (users)

JFreak
02-08-2015, 09:30 PM
The funny thing is I used to pay close to $199 for a reel of 2" tape which got you +/- 30 minutes @ 15 & 15 minutes @ 30. Go figure?

What a great perspective :)

Tim R.
02-08-2015, 09:42 PM
If Avid is like other corporations, those that implement subscription plans will probably not be around, so they won't care if the long-term effect of these plans is a gradual erosion of the user base.
Short term profit is all that matters.
Dean

Adobe, and Microsoft not gonna be around?!

Southsidemusic
02-08-2015, 09:45 PM
If Avid is like other corporations, those that implement subscription plans will probably not be around, so they won't care if the long-term effect of these plans is a gradual erosion of the user base.
Short term profit is all that matters.
Dean

Yea Thats a really silly comment as it doesn't ring true to this discussion at all

b mcgibney
02-08-2015, 10:27 PM
I've been with PT for 14 years. Done every upgrade. I think I'm getting off the train. The notion of subscription service I find unattractive. I just want a creative tool that works and makes the beat sounding music. Don't make movies, don't wanna be a star, just want to make music to share.

Love PT but hate where it is going

Maybe better if it was run as a collective?

paul007
02-09-2015, 12:26 AM
I don't mind any subscription, everybody has many in life.
Unless someone in a suit at your doorstep says: "because I need your money more than you" :-)

It is also quite different if something you've already owned for decades, suddenly needs a mandatory annual subscription for the rest of your life.
In that case there has to be a very good reason or explanation, other than "I need your money more than you".

What exactly does the user get?
What benefits?
Does the user need those benefits?

Or is it just a subscription because there needs to be a subscription?

And what other company scares clients with a complete reinvestment if you miss subscription renewal?

noiseboyuk
02-09-2015, 01:26 AM
Yeah, we 'pros' certainly seem bent out of shape over $199/year.

Not wanting to be too clever-smart about it, but if you're paying $199 year, you're unlikely to be a pro. Standard Pro Tools is too crippled for pro tasks. They should just rename it Tools, really.

The 2" tape is an interesting historical comparison, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, I presume the client always paid if they wanted it kept (or was just build into the session fee)? It also demonstrates how far the market has changed, not least of which album budgets. There used to be no alternative than to large tape formats if you wanted to multitrack record, so you had a small number of very expensive facilities. Now you have an immeasurably larger number of small facilities and a relative handful of the older style big studios, who themselves get fed into by the little guys and gals.

JFreak
02-09-2015, 02:09 AM
Standard Pro Tools is too crippled for pro tasks. They should just rename it Tools, really.

It is far from crippled. It can do everything a HD1 system could do ten years ago, except surround mixing.

Remember, that system cost 10 grand and did 32 simultaneous external i/o, 128 internal busses, and whopping 96 voices (mono audio) at base (44.1/48k) sampling rates.

Currently, PT 11 standard software can do 32 simultaneous external i/o, unlimited internal busses, and 96 mono or stereo tracks.

Needless to say, current PT 11 standard software can easily be run on a laptop, but the HD1 system most often required a desktop workstation (expansion chassis was very expensive and had some extra limitations).

So, is it too crippled for pro tasks really? Are you only pro if you mix in surround?

The 2" tape is an interesting historical comparison, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, I presume the client always paid if they wanted it kept (or was just build into the session fee)?

You still had to keep many tapes at hand before the client came in, and in case client didn't want to pay for the tape to own it, you still had to have some tapes of your own to get things running. And those tapes didn't last forever, so you easily spent more than 199 a year for replacing worn out tapes, even if most clients wanted to buy their reels. A fair comparison if you ask me.

JFreak
02-09-2015, 02:13 AM
(...and at the time of blue digidesign-branded HD interfaces you could only get 32 inputs and outputs in a HD1 system if you had extra AD/DA converters connected to two 192 interfaces which means the cost of a 32 I/O system was way more than 10k.)

noiseboyuk
02-09-2015, 02:36 AM
It is far from crippled. It can do everything a HD1 system could do ten years ago, except surround mixing.

Remember, that system cost 10 grand and did 32 simultaneous external i/o, 128 internal busses, and whopping 96 voices (mono audio) at base (44.1/48k) sampling rates.

Currently, PT 11 standard software can do 32 simultaneous external i/o, unlimited internal busses, and 96 mono or stereo tracks.

Needless to say, current PT 11 standard software can easily be run on a laptop, but the HD1 system most often required a desktop workstation (expansion chassis was very expensive and had some extra limitations).

So, is it too crippled for pro tasks really? Are you only pro if you mix in surround?

I think the track count alone is pretty crippling, personally. Then there's VCAs which - when absent - have often been cited to write off the competition on these very boards.

Though I use PT for post and not music (I use Cubase for music), looking at a typical screen grab of a commercial track in the monthly SOS feature would have 96 tracks just for the vocals...

You still had to keep many tapes at hand before the client came in, and in case client didn't want to pay for the tape to own it, you still had to have some tapes of your own to get things running. And those tapes didn't last forever, so you easily spent more than 199 a year for replacing worn out tapes, even if most clients wanted to buy their reels. A fair comparison if you ask me.

But again, all built into the very high costs passed on to clients. Of course top studios now still charge high fees, but it's unarguable that the cost of running a regular studio has dropped dramatically.

JFreak
02-09-2015, 02:39 AM
But again, all built into the very high costs passed on to clients. Of course top studios now still charge high fees, but it's unarguable that the cost of running a regular studio has dropped dramatically.

Well then, just pass this 199 a year onto your clients. It is less than 4 dollars a week, surely you can raise your price for one dollar a day? Or less, if you discount the upgrade price you were prepared to pay before this.

JFreak
02-09-2015, 02:39 AM
96 tracks just for the vocals...

I would pass on that one.

Bill Denton
02-09-2015, 04:30 AM
I would pass on that one.

I read an SOS article a couple of years back where they had to sync four tricked-out Pro Tools rigs to do the mix...

And I wonder if even the mixer still remembers the name of the song...

nickthepick
02-09-2015, 04:44 AM
Also, needing to make "safety copies" - I was in a studio a couple of years ago and sitting in the corner was "the old HD rig". A fellow cited how many Gold and Platinum recordings THAT system produced.

noiseboyuk
02-09-2015, 07:26 AM
Well then, just pass this 199 a year onto your clients. It is less than 4 dollars a week, surely you can raise your price for one dollar a day? Or less, if you discount the upgrade price you were prepared to pay before this.

Well as I've said (more than once), I wouldn't use PT Vanillia. So it's $5k to start and $600pa. It is still peanuts for most facilities in theory but as I've said many many many times, it's not the whole story, especially with music. Because a) it IS a big deal for individuals, who will come in with their projects; b) with multiple systems the costs rack up and c) the upgrades might well be deemed unnecessary when even an update from RX from 3 to 4 is nuked by a non-comprehending management (and yes I've heard this many times from facility staffers....) If a DAW is increasingly rarely used - as we've heard now from many people on threads here in the last few months with small-medium sized studios - and there's no real benefit in the upgrades, cutting $600 per machine per annum is an easy save, and it still works for legacy projects.

Anyway, we've been here maaaaany times before.

Tim R.
02-09-2015, 09:13 AM
It is far from crippled. It can do everything a HD1 system could do ten years ago, except surround mixing.

Couldn't live without Automation preview, Disk Cache (I am often mixing off a thumb drive to/from home), VCAs, and now GR meters.

PTHD is the cost of doing business for me. People mention 2" tape, how about a Half Million dollar Synclavier system that had a whopping 4 Channels and lived in a 7' tall tower (or AMS Audiofile w/monochrome display). Yes we have come a long way.

mds1001
02-09-2015, 09:29 AM
Not wanting to be too clever-smart about it, but if you're paying $199 year, you're unlikely to be a pro. Standard Pro Tools is too crippled for pro tasks. They should just rename it Tools, really.

The 2" tape is an interesting historical comparison, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, I presume the client always paid if they wanted it kept (or was just build into the session fee)? It also demonstrates how far the market has changed, not least of which album budgets. There used to be no alternative than to large tape formats if you wanted to multitrack record, so you had a small number of very expensive facilities. Now you have an immeasurably larger number of small facilities and a relative handful of the older style big studios, who themselves get fed into by the little guys and gals.

I disagree with this as well. I own non-HD Pro Tools and I've made 100% of my living recording, mixing and writing music for 15 years. Sure, some of it is in facilities with HD rigs, but every song I've written and received royalties on was written, produced, and 80-100% recorded on my non-HD rig.

mds1001
02-09-2015, 09:31 AM
I would pass on that one.

Ha!

mds1001
02-09-2015, 09:35 AM
Couldn't live without Automation preview, Disk Cache (I am often mixing off a thumb drive to/from home), VCAs, and now GR meters.

PTHD is the cost of doing business for me. People mention 2" tape, how about a Half Million dollar Synclavier system that had a whopping 4 Channels and lived in a 7' tall tower (or AMS Audiofile w/monochrome display). Yes we have come a long way.

Yeah, even the $699/year rate isn't that much dough if you're doing this for a living. I'm as cheap as the next guy, but what do I pay for cable TV? More than $699/year...

Bob Olhsson
02-09-2015, 09:36 AM
It is far from crippled. It can do everything a HD1 system could do ten years ago, except surround mixing...I'd say anybody who can't figure out how to do surround mixing without using HD probably shouldn't be doing surround mixing.

JFreak
02-09-2015, 12:47 PM
I'd say anybody who can't figure out how to do surround mixing without using HD probably shouldn't be doing surround mixing.

Where's the like button? :D

JFreak
02-09-2015, 12:50 PM
Couldn't live without Automation preview, Disk Cache (I am often mixing off a thumb drive to/from home), VCAs, and now GR meters.

So do you think everyone ever made music before PT7.2 (VCA) or PT10 (Disc Cache) or PT11 (GR meters) didn't have a clue about how it's done? What makes a person an audio professional?

I think the most important quality is to recognize what is nonsense and what you need for what you need to do.

noiseboyuk
02-09-2015, 01:04 PM
Sigh.

You can make a hit record on any DAW on the market. If you know it well, you can probably do it pretty efficiently too. Yet certain features are desired because - guess what - they're useful. There's are reasons why people pay to use HD. You can mix without a control surface, but it would be a bore. You can dub on Media Composer if you like (and actually dragging effects presets right on to clips is something I'd like to see in PT now I come to think of it). Yes you can mix in surround without surround, but it's obviously much simpler in every way with, ya know, surround. It's not a virtue to brag about doing things the hard way - indeed the main thrust of a professional feature set is to enable a quick, clear (and yes detailed) workflow.

Anyway... What was the question again? We seem to have a about 5 threads all over the place all essentially discussing the exact same things. Ah well, a'forums, innit?

JFreak
02-09-2015, 01:08 PM
What was the question again?

Some people think that software with all the features one can think of make them "pro" whereas the ones that can use whatever get the results they want. I just compared a "pro" system (HD1) ten years ago to current "standard" software and the current standard offering wins. So do you really think "pro" ten years ago was less worthwhile than a newbie today? It's not about the software, get real.

JFreak
02-09-2015, 01:10 PM
And sorry if I seem to be rude, I'm not. It's just that ... how the ladies say it ... not the tool but how you use it ;)

JFreak
02-09-2015, 01:17 PM
There's are reasons why people pay to use HD.

Yes, so why one don't pay for HD if one needs HD features? I can't believe how much better the non-HD software has become since its (the infamous "LE" crippleware) introduction in 1999

Bob Olhsson
02-09-2015, 01:51 PM
HD features speed up one's work. For people having heavy deadlines or folks in the studio who are getting paid big bucks to be there, the extra cost of HD is chickenfeed.

Tim R.
02-09-2015, 01:56 PM
So do you think everyone ever made music before PT7.2 (VCA) or PT10 (Disc Cache) or PT11 (GR meters) didn't have a clue about how it's done? What makes a person an audio professional?

I think the most important quality is to recognize what is nonsense and what you need for what you need to do.

I didn't say (or intend to imply) that you or anyone else using Pro Tools vanilla doesn't have a clue (I know PLENTY of professionals on Vanilla that I respect and admire their work). I just know that MY workflow requires HD and I'm willing to pay a premium for it. What irks me is all the people complaining about the lack of functionality in PT Vanilla ("Crippled"). My only comment is that if Vanilla doesn't have what you want/need, then pay for HD or move on to one of the MANY other options.

nickthepick
02-09-2015, 02:23 PM
I know a company that moved to PC based Adobe leaving Avid alone. I think they pay a subscription for all Adobe products. Their audio engineer learned on Pro Tools & some their clients know the name of Pro Tools or they would not be investing in an HDX system. They only need an 8x8x8 as most of their recordings are mixing small amount of tracks and a few V/Os. Recently a fellow from a major network was using their LE system with an Mbox Pro. Will probably work out of that room with my Vanilla 11 system as soon as they get a new Mac... Maybe a Mini.

deanrichard
02-09-2015, 02:33 PM
Prices and feature sets are relative. What was the norm 10 years ago isn't now, for better and worse. You wouldn't do your recording using a 10-year old computer, and if your DAW company forced you to do so you would look elsewhere. If someone feels their DAW product lacks new features found on other products,, yet wants to charge them more or put them on a subscription model, they will be resentful. That, despite that the current feature set is light years above 10 years earlier.

As for the comparison to spending $199 for 2-inch tape, it would be valid if music studios billing rates and usage had kept up too.

Dean

And sorry if I seem to be rude, I'm not. It's just that ... how the ladies say it ... not the tool but how you use it ;)

noiseboyuk
02-10-2015, 01:34 AM
Some people think that software with all the features one can think of make them "pro" whereas the ones that can use whatever get the results they want. I just compared a "pro" system (HD1) ten years ago to current "standard" software and the current standard offering wins. So do you really think "pro" ten years ago was less worthwhile than a newbie today? It's not about the software, get real.

Double sigh.

Why not compare with a pro system of 30 years ago? Made classic records then that put most of the current crop to shame. Sounded awesome, and it was exclusively used by professionals. And there are some pros even today who'd chose that way to go, but it doesn't make it a CONTEMPORARY competitor.

Yet again, you seem to be missing the point. Of course owning pro software doesn't make you a top professional sound engineer, any more than owning great tools doesn't make you a great civil engineer. That's not what I or anyone else that I can see is saying. But arguing that professionals don't get use out of the the best tools designed for their use is just silly. A pro studio will be wanting an HD feature set (or equivalent), as opposed to the hobbled vanilla one EVEN THOUGH THE VANILLA ONE CAN GET GREAT RESULTS. Sheesh.

Oh, and btw I checked - the original question of this thread was - "Can someone guide me to a link or explain what the cost of upgrading from Pro Tools 11 to 12 will be for me?" And yet, here we are.... again....

nickthepick
02-10-2015, 06:17 AM
Sure - Nuff... "Old School" guys & gals used 4 Tracks and now they want HDX. The old saying that...they pay what it's worth. That's the basis of the discussion is the new Avid business model. Who buys into it and why or why not. The answer is... the "New Avid" is it profitable?

nickthepick
02-10-2015, 06:23 AM
Sheesh, some one will make a profit with Avid First. I think a sales man told me $11K for a "16X "HD.

Park Seward
02-10-2015, 10:09 AM
The 2" tape is an interesting historical comparison, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, I presume the client always paid if they wanted it kept (or was just build into the session fee)?

A 2" reel of tape is around $300 so it would be an extra charge to the session. Some also needed more than one reel, like in a backup. Reels could also be rented.

Bob Olhsson
02-10-2015, 11:07 AM
We always used at least one reel a song and two if we were running at 30.

JFreak
02-10-2015, 12:42 PM
two if we were running at 30

...and why weren't you? :)

TOM@METRO
02-10-2015, 12:46 PM
We still use tape on some projects. It's always 30ips non-Dolby.

nickthepick
02-10-2015, 01:10 PM
And it seems like I always need just one more Terabyte of storage.

longname
02-14-2015, 06:32 PM
So let me see if I get this straight...

If I was on Pro Tools 8 I could upgrade to 11 for $199, and then get 12 for free when it comes out.

However, if I was on 10, paid $800 to upgrade to 11, I now am also expected to pay a further $199 to get 12?? Something sounds fishy about that...

The correct response from AVID would be: "If you paid the regular upgrade or full retail price for 11, we will give you 12 for free and provide 12 months of support from the time you activate it."

That would be the right thing to do...

To upgrade or crossgrade to Pro Tools 11 and get PT 12 at no additional cost, you must own one of the following Pro Tools licenses, which will need to be surrendered upon activation:

Pro Tools 9 or 10
Pro Tools Express* bundled with Pro Tools | Mbox, Fast Track Solo, or Fast Track Duo interfaces only (InMusic versions of Pro Tools Express are not eligible for crossgrade)
Pro Tools M-Powered 6–8*, or Pro Tools MP 9*

I don't know if you can cross grade from 8 though

If you are on 10, you will need to pay 200$ instead of 800$ to get PT 11 and 12. 800$ is the price for new users. If you already owned PT 11 before the support plan came out, you also have to pay 199$ to get pro tools 12.

nickthepick
02-14-2015, 06:50 PM
I have a brand new DAW... I am certainty interested in PT12... I've already spent my software budget. Time to make some money.

longname
02-14-2015, 07:05 PM
Judging from your response, I take it you either didn't read my comment, or you don't have a problem playing 4x what PT 8 users pay for the privilege of supporting AVID.

To clarify, I'm already on 11 and I live in Australia so this is how much it's costing for me.

I paid $1000 for a PT10 license. Then 8 months later I paid a further $700 to upgrade to 11. Now they want ANOTHER $260 for 12? When someone who got 8 with an MBox for $600 only has to pay an additional $260 for the same privilege.

To break it down into easy-to-read numbers...

My TCO from 10 to 12 = $1960 (keeping current and providing AVID with a steady income stream)
Their TCO from 8 to 12 = $860 (not keeping current and not supporting AVID)

Now do you understand?

This payment model makes no sense... Someone obviously failed basic economics in school, and AVID should fire their entire marketing team...

You paid 1000 for PT 10 in Australia? You meant PTHD or just PT? 700$ for upgrade from 10->11?

longname
02-14-2015, 07:20 PM
This payment model makes no sense... Someone obviously failed basic economics in school, and AVID should fire their entire marketing team...

Yes, it is making no sense. AVID should fire the CEO and Accounting team. In 2013 AVID replaced a new CEO, he is doing nothing to improve AVID. And btw he is also good at scaring their customers.

nickthepick
02-15-2015, 03:52 AM
I am hearing LogicX 10.1 is improved with more on the way. I have had success composing in Logic 9, converting midi to wave files. From there I can import them into Pro Tools.
I do enjoy audio editing in Pro Tools. I planned on waiting until PT12 comes out, but I have seen a number of artists that have "hits" tracked and mixed in Logic (other DAWs too.)
Even Avid is building compatibility with it's control surfaces for other DAWs. An Avid exec told me years ago that the Avid model would be more about distribution. He told me that Apple has quite a large amount of cash... CFOs will always say that Cash is King. Besides almost all the producers, engineers, and musicians I know have iPhones. All the Pro Tools users do.
One of the post facilities I work with enjoys the Adobe plan. They have access to every A/V program. The majority of video editors have moved to Adobe Premier from Avid Media Composers.
I am thinking the future of A/V will get quite interesting in the coming months. I think that Avid could have been more brand loyal to their customers.
That does suck for such a high cost for updating from 10 to 11. It would seem that PT10 is a good program. It is not as CPU effective as PT11. If you have PT10, it may be better to invest in a new MacPro.
Sonar is headed the subscription model too.

nickthepick
02-15-2015, 03:55 AM
My bad... I see you have PT11.

bangbangbang
02-15-2015, 01:25 PM
I'm wondering would there be a cross upgrade for PT Le users ?
I have a PT7 Le but yet to upgrade to the current version. :o
Can someone advise ? :confused:

guitardom
02-15-2015, 02:35 PM
I'm wondering would there be a cross upgrade for PT Le users ?
I have a PT7 Le but yet to upgrade to the current version. :o
Can someone advise ? :confused:
There was a 200$ upgrade from LE that ended Dec 31. At this point there no way to upgrade from LE.

ImSoCute
03-22-2015, 12:36 AM
so correct me if I'm wrong but:

I've got brand new sealed PT Express from Solo Bundle. I also have got brand new and sealed PT11 Update from Express. So I will be able to register Express and then upgrade to PT11 with this upgrade and I will get PT12 for free right?

JFreak
03-22-2015, 12:42 AM
I've got brand new sealed PT Express from Solo Bundle. I also have got brand new and sealed PT11 Update from Express. So I will be able to register Express and then upgrade to PT11 with this upgrade and I will get PT12 for free right?

I would think so, especially if the PT11 upgrade includes the support plan. I'm not sure though, but there's at least a good chance that it will be considered a new purchase and therefore eligible for free PT12 upgrade. Just try it and see how it goes. No guarantee :)

PT12 has already been announced (not released) so any new PT11 sales should (in my mind at least) be eligible for PT12 once released.

ImSoCute
03-22-2015, 01:49 AM
I'd rather be 100% sure about that :) So if you would be so kind and confirm this I'd be very greatful JFreak. Thanks

JFreak
03-22-2015, 07:57 AM
I have no way of confirming this, you need to do the research yourself. There are upgrades with and without support plan and from whatever version etc. so I have absolutely no clue what you actually have. I am just guessing, but I am right most of the time :)

JFreak
03-22-2015, 07:58 AM
Maybe if you waited until PT12 is released?

ImSoCute
03-22-2015, 08:16 AM
I already have it but did't ask in the store if that's with or without the support, had no idea that there are few different versions of the upgrade. Anyway we didn't register any of these products so far so we can also wait few days more - when is the release date of PT12? We can go for 30 days of trial for now - of course you need to provide us a working download link :)

JFreak
03-22-2015, 08:18 AM
PT12 release date has not yet been announced. It may be any day now, or not.

YYR123
03-23-2015, 07:34 AM
Soon - I'm sure (sarcasm implied on purpose)

thanos4
03-23-2015, 08:12 AM
it's up guys!!
amazing…..just had a real time conversation via the new chat with an agent…he helped with some qquestions i had…..thumps up!!!!!!