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View Full Version : How to make a "grid" out of a drum track to beat detective a tambourine to.


Johnrg
11-23-2014, 11:18 AM
Hi all,

I have a drum track that was recorded to a protools grid and protools generated click but was not beat detectived. It grooves around the exact grid a little but is mostly about 1/64th to 1/128th in front of the protools grid at the tempo we used.

I have recorded a tambourine track to these drums thats a bit sloppy. I want to quantize it to the drum track beats and sub beats, NOT the protools grid.

Tried lots of things to do this over the last few nights, namely extracting a tempo map from analysing the drum tracks in a selection/region and then trying to seperate and conform the tambourine to this map, but it never seems to work, at best some beats, subbeats line up with the drums, others dont, at worst it moves the tambourine all around the place and does not work at all.

What am i doing wrong?, seems like im missing something very simple. Maybe this is not possible?

Using PT 8.03

JohnG

DC-Choppah
11-24-2014, 04:16 AM
You need to create a tempo map manually. You do that by moving along the drum track using 'tab to transients', and then use 'identify beat' to indicate the beat.

If he fluctuates at the quarter note level, then you will need to identify down to the quarter note. Usually doing every bar is OK though, but it depends on the performer.

Once you have these bar beat markers, then you will have a tempo track that is locked on to the drummer and you can use MIDI to place notes on the grid that conform to it automatically.

Bill Denton
11-24-2014, 05:56 AM
Hi all,

I have a drum track that was recorded to a protools grid and protools generated click but was not beat detectived. It grooves around the exact grid a little but is mostly about 1/64th to 1/128th in front of the protools grid at the tempo we used.

I have recorded a tambourine track to these drums thats a bit sloppy. I want to quantize it to the drum track beats and sub beats, NOT the protools grid.

Tried lots of things to do this over the last few nights, namely extracting a tempo map from analysing the drum tracks in a selection/region and then trying to seperate and conform the tambourine to this map, but it never seems to work, at best some beats, subbeats line up with the drums, others dont, at worst it moves the tambourine all around the place and does not work at all.

What am i doing wrong?, seems like im missing something very simple. Maybe this is not possible?

Using PT 8.03

JohnG

A couple of notes (pun intended)...

The grid is a fixed reference...quantization is done relative to this reference. I don't know of any way to quantize relative to anything other than the grid.

"I have recorded ..." If this means you were playing the tambourine (not just engineering), re-recording the part is probably your best option...

mesaone
11-24-2014, 10:57 AM
The grid is a fixed reference...quantization is done relative to this reference. I don't know of any way to quantize relative to anything other than the grid.

The grid can be set to Clips and Markers after using Beat Detective to capture, analyze, and separate. That should get him where he wants to be.

albee1952
11-24-2014, 03:31 PM
I believe what you really want; is to use Beat Detective to EXTRACT the groove from the kit, and apply it to the tambourine:o

Johnrg
11-24-2014, 07:03 PM
Hi All,

Thanks for the replies,

I want it very accurate, tried to re-record but its not tight enough with the drums.

I have been trying to use beat detective to "extract" the groove. Seems simple but does not seem to work "perfectly"

Heres what I do:

I select four bars on the protools grid, capture this as a selection and then use collection mode to analyze and pick up the kick and snare beats.

I then extract this as a "groove" to the clipboard (maybe i should be generating it as a tempo map instead?).

I then select the same four bars in the tamborine audio region, analyise the beats, seperate them and then confirm them to the clipboard groove template i previously saved.

It works "OK" but seems really hit and miss, some of the tambourine beats line up perfectly, others get moved slightly in front of, or behind the beat. You can hear that these are slighty off, which i dont want.

The less bars I do the more accurate it is, but its lots of work to do this two bars at a time over quite a long song. Must be an easier more accurate to do this?

JohnG

YYR123
11-24-2014, 08:04 PM
The less bars I do the more accurate it is, but its lots of work to do this two bars at a time over quite a long song. Must be an easier more accurate to do this?

This is the way they tell you to do it.

You probably need to really see how far off the drummer is.....if he is not on the grid and continually wavers off, you can't expect extract a groove of bars4-8 and then apply the groove to the bars 32-36 of the tambourine and expect them to sync if the drummer isn't playing on the grid.


I think you would be better off, starting at the drum tracks first and working it out with BD then.....conforming them to the existing PT grid.....and then the tambourine will fit like it's supposed to......

My $0.02

Ben Jenssen
11-25-2014, 08:27 AM
If I understood you correctly, you want to have the grid line up with the recorded (imperfect) drums, and then quantize the tambourine to the grid now varying a little in tempo, like the drums.

That's Beat Detective Tempo Mapping.
It's in the PT Reference.

And here:
Youtube: Pro Tools Tutorial - Tempo Mapping (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0xlBU1HS3A)

DC-Choppah
11-26-2014, 06:30 AM
There is always a contest between 'Beat Detective' vs 'Identify Beat'.

You can try Beat Detective first, but if it is not working on your material, Identify Beat / Tab to Transients is the backup and is foolproof.

mesaone
11-26-2014, 09:57 AM
There is always a contest between 'Beat Detective' vs 'Identify Beat'.

I think of it like this:

Identify Beat is for conforming your session to your material, Beat Detective is for conforming your material to your session.

YYR123
11-26-2014, 10:11 AM
I use them both / first identify then chop it up to the grid

Bill Denton
11-26-2014, 10:26 AM
A lot of very good professional drummers play slightly ahead or behind the "beat" (grid line), and often alternate between the two in different parts of the song...it adds to the "musicality" of their performance.

This will often create a problem with synchronizing multiple percussion (and sometimes other) parts.

A trick some engineers use is to create a "faux" drum track using something like a BFD (or other loop). You then record all of the instruments except the drums using the "faux" drum track for guidance.

You then record the drums last...some use the "faux" drum track to guide the drummer...some mute the "faux" drum track and just use the click.

I haven't needed to use this trick myself (I'm a drummer), but I have read of some engineers who have used it successfully...

Oliver M
11-26-2014, 03:38 PM
If I understood you correctly, you want to have the grid line up with the recorded (imperfect) drums, and then quantize the tambourine to the grid now varying a little in tempo, like the drums.

That's Beat Detective Tempo Mapping.
It's in the PT Reference.



Thats exactly how to do it, and its a lot of work indeed!

YYR123
11-26-2014, 05:39 PM
I haven't needed to use this trick myself (I'm a drummer)..


Admitting your sins is the first step towards recovery !!!! Hahhahaha happy turkey day bill

Bill Denton
11-26-2014, 06:59 PM
Admitting your sins is the first step towards recovery !!!! Hahhahaha happy turkey day bill

Right back at you...hope you and yours have a great Thanksgiving too...

YYR123
11-26-2014, 07:22 PM
Right back at you...hope you and yours have a great Thanksgiving too...

Cheers my friend

Kris75
11-27-2014, 04:33 PM
For the amount of time it would take to quantize using Beat Detective or Identify Beat, the manual editing would be done WAAAAAYYYYY faster. BD is good for quick and dirty edits, but not for this job.

Simply, CUT, MOVE, FILL, FADE.

All you have to do is cut each tamb. part and move it in line with the drums. Then highlight the edits, open up BD and choose fill and fade. DONE.

Way faster then messing about with BD. You will spend more time trying to fix what BD messed up IMO.