Let's Play "Hypothetical"...

[Bill Denton]

(Although I may not be too far off)

Let's assume that Waves listens to some of the early criticisms and is able to get DigiGrid done right, where it can be integrated into existing workflows with very minimal changes.

You are a freelance post guy. You have a handful of big-time LA post-house clients, you have a lot of work, and you're managing to keep your head above water financially.

Then Waves comes to LA. They drop in on a half-dozen major post houses, including three of your major clients. Waves offers to let these post houses us the DigiGrid systems for six months, at no charge. If, at the end of six months, they like the DigiGrid system, they can buy it. If they don't like it, Waves will take it back, no harm, no foul. And to top it off, Waves says they'll have a dedicated tech guy in LA for the six months to handle any glitches.

At the end of the six months, a couple of your clients are totally ga-ga over the DigiGrid system, and they tell you that if you want to continue working for them you'll have to buy a DigiGrid.

So, what do you do? You may hate DigiGrid, but these clients provide 50% of your billing.

Sometimes you don't get to make your own choices about the equipment and other tools you use...

[Emcha_audio]

(Although I may not be too far off)

Let's assume that Waves listens to some of the early criticisms and is able to get DigiGrid done right, where it can be integrated into existing workflows with very minimal changes.

You are a freelance post guy. You have a handful of big-time LA post-house clients, you have a lot of work, and you're managing to keep your head above water financially.

Then Waves comes to LA. They drop in on a half-dozen major post houses, including three of your major clients. Waves offers to let these post houses us the DigiGrid systems for six months, at no charge. If, at the end of six months, they like the DigiGrid system, they can buy it. If they don't like it, Waves will take it back, no harm, no foul. And to top it off, Waves says they'll have a dedicated tech guy in LA for the six months to handle any glitches.

At the end of the six months, a couple of your clients are totally ga-ga over the DigiGrid system, and they tell you that if you want to continue working for them you'll have to buy a DigiGrid.

So, what do you do? You may hate DigiGrid, but these clients provide 50% of your billing.

Sometimes you don't get to make your own choices about the equipment and other tools you use...

At that point if the clients request it, buy it and shove it as a business expense due to client, hopefully if you're like over here, you'll get half if not all (since it's hardware) taken off in deductions.

[SOUNDDECISION]

(Although I may not be too far off)

Let's assume that Waves listens to some of the early criticisms and is able to get DigiGrid done right, where it can be integrated into existing workflows with very minimal changes.

You are a freelance post guy. You have a handful of big-time LA post-house clients, you have a lot of work, and you're managing to keep your head above water financially.

Then Waves comes to LA. They drop in on a half-dozen major post houses, including three of your major clients. Waves offers to let these post houses us the DigiGrid systems for six months, at no charge. If, at the end of six months, they like the DigiGrid system, they can buy it. If they don't like it, Waves will take it back, no harm, no foul. And to top it off, Waves says they'll have a dedicated tech guy in LA for the six months to handle any glitches.

At the end of the six months, a couple of your clients are totally ga-ga over the DigiGrid system, and they tell you that if you want to continue working for them you'll have to buy a DigiGrid.

So, what do you do? You may hate DigiGrid, but these clients provide 50% of your billing.

Sometimes you don't get to make your own choices about the equipment and other tools you use...

You lost me....Am I the 'freelance engineer' or the 'post house'??

You say Waves lends the post house the system but then you say its the engineer that has to buy it??? I dont get it.

Also, I think this convoluted scenario sums up the real issue. If Waves has to give away systems for 6 months with free tech support then force people to buy it, I dont think that is exactly the marketing plan they are after.

They probably wish they had something like UAD Apollo. People lined up for that thing and they cant keep them in stock and they still go for full price used on ebay.

Avid HDX is somewhere in between.

But, I should be the target audience for this and I have no interest.

I own Mercury TDM, 2 HDX systems, 3 UAD cards etc...I buy everything... and this is on my 'WTF list' not my "want list"

Just saying...

Happy to hear from Waves to correct me if I'm missing something....

[TOM@METRO]

The catch is “compatibility is critical”. If you send the project to a studio in NY, will Waves also give them one?

The only possible role I see for this is; to salvage a TDM studio that can't afford HDX, as long as backward compatibility is not an issue, and as long as the sessions do not need to travel.

[Bill Denton]

You lost me....Am I the 'freelance engineer' or the 'post house'??

You are the "freelance engineer"

You say Waves lends the post house the system but then you say its the engineer that has to buy it??? I dont get it.

It's loaned to "post house" for six months, then they have to buy it or give it back. If they do buy it they will require the "freelance engineers" to also buy one.

Also, I think this convoluted scenario sums up the real issue. If Waves has to give away systems for 6 months with free tech support then force people to buy it, I dont think that is exactly the marketing plan they are after.

They probably wish they had something like UAD Apollo. People lined up for that thing and they cant keep them in stock and they still go for full price used on ebay.

Avid HDX is somewhere in between.

But, I should be the target audience for this and I have no interest.

I own Mercury TDM, 2 HDX systems, 3 UAD cards etc...I buy everything... and this is on my 'WTF list' not my "want list"

Just saying...

Happy to hear from Waves to correct me if I'm missing something....

As I noted on another thread, Waves totally dropped the ball on market positioning and general marketing on DigiGrid...

[Bob Olhsson]

It's less of a problem than UA because at least the same plugs are available native and they have cross-platform presets. A PITA? Certainly but not starting over just to make a few changes.

I wouldn't use the mixer. Hardware i/o using their multitrack system the way it's used in live sound makes more sense to me in that situation. If they released a native multirack plug-in, copying the settings to native could be a piece of cake and you could probably freeze them if you didn't have enough horsepower. I'd just stick to AAX plugs for any effects requiring automation. The other thing is that when there is enough budget for a major post house, there's enough budget for you to rent one to the clients!

[John_Toolbox]

The catch is “compatibility is critical”. If you send the project to a studio in NY, will Waves also give them one?

The only possible role I see for this is; to salvage a TDM studio that can't afford HDX, as long as backward compatibility is not an issue, and as long as the sessions do not need to travel.

And for the price of this box, I'm really having a hard time seeing anyone do that. What will a used HDX card cost in a few years? Probably the same as a new digigrid box.

[John_Toolbox]

It's loaned to "post house" for six months, then they have to buy it or give it back. If they do buy it they will require the "freelance engineers" to also buy one.

Why? Aren't the freelance engineers already working out of the post house that just bought the box? Using that logic, A freelance engineer would need to have their own sound stage in order to be hired by a post facility that also has a sound stage.

Or are you talking about other post studios that the first one farms out work to?

[Bill Denton]

That's a really creative story Bill, but I'm sure that these mythical post houses already have a new plug in workflow for HDX that doesn't include Waves and would be hard pressed to justify beta testing a clunky Waves hardware clunkfest.

Completely ignoring the fact that they didn't have an AAX workflow two years ago either. If, for whatever reason, they wanted / needed to incorporate DigiGrid, they would develop a workflow for it just as they did for AAX.

YOu really want this terribly bad idea to work for some reason. Don't you?

First, calling something that you have not yet seen and that you have not really researched a "terribly bad idea" is very short-sighted. Second, I really don't care whether it works or not, it's not something I need in order to knock out my little songs in my basement. I just don't like to see people bashing a product that they really don't know anything about. Third, I'm putting a few bucks away out of every paycheck, and as soon as I can afford to buy an Apollo I'm going to dump Pro Tools and switch to Cubase. I'm just extremely disappointed with what I've seen out of Avid the last couple of years, Cubase will do what I want it to do, and I think it will be more cost-effective for me, although YMMV.

Latency matters a lot. Period. The story is over.

Indeed it does, and if latency were a part of the equation you might be right about "The story is over". But it's not. Latency is a function of conversion and processing, not of the audio transfer medium. It has been noted on several threads here and elsewhere that some post houses and individual users are employing NAS, using Ethernet will not increase latency.

[Bill Denton]

The catch is “compatibility is critical”. If you send the project to a studio in NY, will Waves also give them one?

I'm afraid you're missing the point here, so let me break it down a little better...

I'm assuming you would agree that the best way to evaluate a conceptually new product like DigiGrid is via: hand's on usage.

Waves has the financial resources to put several DigiGrid boxes out in the field so key users and decision makers can evaluate the system.

You asked, "If you send the project to a studio in NY, will Waves also give them one?" Well, if you send the project to a studio in NY today, will Waves give the NY studio a free Mercury bundle? Of course not! What would happen is the LA studio would tell the NY studio that they need to buy DigiGrid if they want to work for them.

The only possible role I see for this is; to salvage a TDM studio that can't afford HDX, as long as backward compatibility is not an issue, and as long as the sessions do not need to travel.

You really need to expand your vision. Wouldn't this be a perfect box for someone who is opening a brand new studio and wants to use Waves plugins running on dedicated hardware? And there are any number of other reasons why someone might want to use Waves plugins running on dedicated hardware.

[Bill Denton]

Bill. I mistook you for someone who was serious about this.

Nothing like a snide remark to get the conversation going...

I am quite serious about it, which is why I researched the product enough to be able to talk about it.

Latnecy does so have to do with the medium...

There's only one way to put this...you are wrong.

PT workflow is the workflow I'm talking about...not AAX...in fact...what the heck are you talking about?

To directly quote your previous post, "... a new plug in workflow for HDX ..."

Enough trash talking Bill. It's now obvious you are just an Avid basher.

I think your "obvious" is quite different from those folks who have read the numerous posts I have made defending Avid when it is merited. And I imagine a lot of people will get a good laugh out of your accusing someone of being a "basher". Especially given the "a clunky Waves hardware clunkfest" and the "terribly bad idea" that you manged to use in a single post on this thread.

"knocking out songs in your basement"???? And you are trash talking in here?

I really think you should take a good long look in the mirror before you accuse someone else of being a basher.

And how and where I currently choose to do my work is not at all relevant to this discussion.

I here Apollo is very good actually. For native systems. It is very appealing.

Interesting you can make a judgement about a currently available product based only on what you "here" from others (which should be "hear"). I guess that explains your willingness to bash a product that has not yet been released and which you don't appear to have done any research on.

[Emcha_audio]

"knocking out songs in your basement"???? And you are trash talking in here?


Stew you're getting very belligerent.

With that said, there are many many veteran pro's that have a full fledged mixing room at home. Some of those are comparable to some of the mint studios you can find around the world. You specifically have no idea what Bill has or doesn't have as a studio environment at his place, you might be quite shocked, or not. Your attitude is really not helping anything, so please, can you take a breather before posting and tone it down, thanks.

[Bob Olhsson]

... there are many many veteran pro's that have a full fledged mixing room at home...Music: yes, post: not so much other than home editing rooms.

[John_Toolbox]

^^^ Which again is why I don't think this "hypothetical" scenario is likely. Freelance post engineers usually work out of the studio they are hired by, so they don't have to own an identical gear list to the studio they are working for to be able to be hired, they need to know how to operate everything in said studio to complete the job. It's more common with music to have everything in your own studio for various reasons, and if the project involves sharing work between studios, it's much more likely that the studio that got the "free trial" of digigrid would realize that it was going to limit their options for being compatible with other studios, and give it back to Waves at or before the trial period was up.

Regardless of my opinions, Bill is entitled to one as well and I don't think that whether someone's studio is in their house or in a commercial space should discredit anyone here.

[TOM@METRO]

"I'm afraid you're missing the point here, so let me break it down a little better...

I'm assuming you would agree (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=333912&page=2#) that the best way to evaluate a conceptually new product like DigiGrid is via: hand's on usage."

Bill,

<O:pOf course I have had hands on usage with DigiGrid, and in depth conversations with those responsible for it's creation.

<O:pI'm sure neither of us would discuss something with which we had no experience.

[Marsdy]

The catch is “compatibility is critical”. If you send the project to a studio in NY, will Waves also give them one?

The only possible role I see for this is; to salvage a TDM studio that can't afford HDX, as long as backward compatibility is not an issue, and as long as the sessions do not need to travel.

Well Avid can hardly claim compatibility between it's OWN systems. What if a TDM session contains plug-ins by Soundtoys, Eventide, URS, Abbey Road, Access, Line 6, Drawmer, Waves, TC. Trying opening THAT on a HDX system and see how compatible it is. It won't be for some considerable time and never will be in some cases.

Obviously a big post house would be stupid not to keep a TDM system in reserve but what about the small post house/studio struggling in difficult times?

[Marsdy]

By the way guys, in the interests of being completely pedantic, the new Waves system is called SoundGrid.

[Emcha_audio]

By the way guys, in the interests of being completely pedantic, the new Waves system is called SoundGrid.

*just shakes his head*

[TOM@METRO]

Well Avid can hardly claim compatibility between it's OWN systems. What if a TDM session contains plug-ins by Soundtoys, Eventide, URS, Abbey Road, Access, Line 6, Drawmer, Waves, TC. Trying opening THAT on a HDX system and see how compatible it is. It won't be for some considerable time and never will be in some cases.

Obviously a big post house would be stupid not to keep a TDM system in reserve but what about the small post house/studio struggling in difficult times?
I open TDM sessions on my HDX rig whenever I receive them. Some plug-ins you mention open as native but the session still runs just fine. I feel that this entire issue is being blown way out of proportion here by most everyone. I go to work everyday, get paid, and none of this will change that. I hope this new add-on can find a place for itself, I just don't think it will be super strong in the AVID world. But all is well, no matter what happens.

[Bob Olhsson]

I open TDM sessions on my HDX rig whenever I receive them. Some plug-ins you mention open as native but the session still runs just fine. I feel that this entire issue is being blown way out of proportion here by most everyone...Exactly!

[Bill Denton]

...this hypothetical is nonsense...and yes it does so matter what you are doing with regards to trash talking Avid HDX...and then propping up a system that doesn't even exist.

It's pretty obvious that guys that work on rigs to make a living understand that this "idea" is very unlikely to take hold...and guys that "knock out songs" in their basements for fun embrace the latest and greatest sliced bread because it is more fun than accepting that HD/HDX is just the most appropriate rig to use in a studio.

That is NOT a judgement on a person's use of their own time. The world needs lots of guys "knocking out tunes in their basements". Really, but you don't get to make huge sweeping generalizations about HD rigs when you don;t even use the dang thing.



We all understand that native rigs are great. We ALL have them at home. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US right?

We ALL knock out mixes/songs/etc in our basements.

So what? That doesn't make us entitled to Knock HDX. If you have HDX and don;t like it, or have tried it and don;t like it or think it is no good, well then you certainly have a leg to stand on

...as of right now, NONE of us have experienced this Waves system, so we are ALL just guessing.


In fact if you really look at this, I'm the one being insulted. What right does anyone have telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. I have as much experience on the new Waves rig as everyone else. ...and more experience with digico gear than lots on here.

So suck on that for a while.

And you can suck on whatever you wish, but while you're doing that, find even one quote where I have knocked HDX.

Even though I can't afford it, if my work required HDX I would figure out a way to buy it.

For some specific types of work, HDX is probably the best solution at this time.

For other types of work, UAD has the answer.

Like many others, I can accomplish what I want to with one of several native solutions.

And depending upon what Waves Soundgrid is when it comes out, it may well be exactly what some users are looking for.

I think the adults in the room would agree that there is no one system that is perfect for every workflow in every industry. I think a lot of them would agree that no one system is perfect for even a single workflow in a single industry (although technical needs / limitations might dictate a required solution).

If a given solution works well for you, great...shout it from the rooftops. But don't ever think what works for you is going to work well for everyone else...