Waves introduces DigiGrid

[nst7]

Digigrid.net

Soundgrid technology ported to DAW use.

Interesting.

[upscaps]

"Realtime Super Low Latency Mixing, Recording, and Monitoring For Pro Tools"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVKYU4W1mqs

[digidesigner]

So Waves is in even deeper bed with Digico... absolutely not exited about this creation, not looking to add any boxes to my PT rig :/

[blairl]

It appears that Waves is bypassing the need for AAX-DSP with the DigiGrid DLS which plugs right into the HDX or HD Native cards and "acts as a Pro Tools card" to allow plug-in processing. This DLS interface then connects to the usual Avid HD interfaces. This may take care of the question of latency.

Was this done as a cooperative venture between Waves and Avid?

http://www.digigrid.net/portfolio/dls/

[jmitchell1532]

Does this mean Marsdy was right...?

[suicune]

Was this done as a cooperative venture between Waves and Avid?

You're having a laugh aren't you??

"By instantly plugging you into the SoundGrid network, DiGiGrid DL deliver the continued benefits of your existing Pro Tools I/O, even when you switch to another platform."

WHEN you switch to another platform! Not even IF!!

Seems like a pretty big (insert rude word/gesture) to avid to me. And I can't see it as being good news for HDX users in any way shape or form.

How does it actually integrate with Pro Tools? The videos don't really show. Can you use this on a channel in conjunction with other 3rd party plugins? I don't really understand.

[Oblivion777]

Well now we know why there won't be any AAX-DSP...nothing to do with 700000000000 man hours or years or decades. Pure corporate bull. But that is Waves's right if we agree or not.

[Marsdy]

Does this mean Marsdy was right...?

Yes it does. That was the "surprise" I talked about. Anyone for some pie? Humble flavoured?

[Marsdy]

Well now we know why there won't be any AAX-DSP...nothing to do with 700000000000 man hours or years or decades. Pure corporate bull. But that is Waves's right if we agree or not.

I honestly believe Waves wanted to do HDX. There are 100,000 TDM systems out there. That's a LOT of potential upgrades they could have sold over the next few years assuming HDX really takes off. As I have said, they were still testing the viability of HDX until just a couple of months ago. They wanted the business but the economics of it just didn't add up.

[digidesigner]

I honestly believe Waves wanted to do HDX. There are 100,000 TDM systems out there. That's a LOT of potential upgrades they could have sold over the next few years assuming HDX really takes off. As I have said, they were still testing the viability of HDX until just a couple of months ago. They wanted the business but the economics of it just didn't add up.

Avid is number one competition of Digico in live sound. Next Avid live desk will be running AAX. Digico will be running Waves, Avid will apparently not. I think THAT is the real reason for no AAX-DSP. AAX Native will be serving most needs of Pro Tools users.

[Oblivion777]

Dave don't get me wrong...I fully understand a business decision...after all both Avid and Waves are in the business of making...well...business. I wonder what time will tell... Do you (not just Dave, but the community) think there's a place for both platforms? In a way this is competing with UAD Apollo...I mean it is not the same, but it is similar. Just wondering what you guys/gals think. I mean I have two systems, one based on HDX, the other one on Apollo. And I use some (probably less than the most of you) Waves plugs...sooooo...well personally I am going to gather as much info as I can and then evaluate if it will be worth investing into the Waves platform.

P.S. I know that technically it is DigiGrid! :P

[upscaps]

Avid is number one competition of Digico in live sound. Next Avid live desk will be running AAX. Digico will be running Waves, Avid will apparently not. I think THAT is the real reason for no AAX-DSP. AAX Native will be serving most needs of Pro Tools users.

But Avid Venue runs SoundGrid too as an option and DigiGrid is still an option for any future Avid Live consoles.

[SoundEng1]

So Waves is in even deeper bed with Digico... absolutely not exited about this creation, not looking to add any boxes to my PT rig :/

yup

[digidesigner]

But Avid Venue runs SoundGrid too as an option and DigiGrid is still an option for any future Avid Live consoles.

VENUE does not run SoundGrid, VENUE runs TDM plugins. As we don't know about the future releases, upcoming VENUE desks might be able to run this franken system Waves has created, but it most definitely won't be as elegant as running and controlling AAX plugins. Looking at the video how this new system should be working with Pro Tools it really does not seem anything but complicated, involving another mixer/matrix and knowing how SoundGrid works you probably need to open plugins on third computer like a laptop to access their GUI. We will know soon, but it won't be how it used to be. Waves "super low latency" can also mean many different things, like "only 10 ms" :D

[Marsdy]

Dave don't get me wrong...I fully understand a business decision...after all both Avid and Waves are in the business of making...well...business. I wonder what time will tell... Do you (not just Dave, but the community) think there's a place for both platforms? In a way this is competing with UAD Apollo...I mean it is not the same, but it is similar.

Sort of. SoundGrid is a very different beast though. As you say, time will tell!!!

[ilovemyssl]

As a TDM user for many years and now having upgraded to HDX, the LAST thing I'll be doing is forking out more money for more proprietary hardware to run my plugins while my HDX DSP remains largely unused.

Waves have really missed it IMO… go check out the feedback on their Facebook page… not many people excited about the prospect of spending more money to use plugins on their already under-utilized HDX DSP rig…

But the biggest joke is that Waves have cut-out their POTENTIAL market of those who don't already have a DSP system and are wanting to get some extra power (like a UAD Apollo etc) and limited this system to the few people who have actually wasted (for the most part) their money on HDX!

[audioluche]

This is a joke.
I was'nt expecting an AAX DSP announcement.
But seeing this, now i get why there is no AAX DSP port.

Bad move. verry bad move.

Bye bye Waves.

[Marsdy]

Stewie

I've no idea what you just said but I guess it's safe to say some of it was abusive and directed at me.

Since you have no interest in Waves what are you doing in this thread? Are you just here to **** on the many thousands of Waves users here on the DUC again? Can you not just chill out, grow up, and stop telling everyone how stupid they are because their views differ from yours.

[SOUNDDECISION]

To me this couldn't be a more off target product. WOW!

And I'm a guy that loves to buy gear....

and technically in the 'target demo' since I own both Mercury TDM AND 2 HDX rigs.

Unless I am missing something, I have absolutely ZERO interest in this.

WT heck were they thinking!!!

[crizdee]

Hi,

So that was it? waves re hash their 2 year old sound grid to work in pro tools and team up with Soundtracs, who are what tenth in the console field? to make an I/O to work with pro tools:confused:

Anti-climax


Chris

[Emcha_audio]

I honestly believe Waves wanted to do HDX. There are 100,000 TDM systems out there. That's a LOT of potential upgrades they could have sold over the next few years assuming HDX really takes off. As I have said, they were still testing the viability of HDX until just a couple of months ago. They wanted the business but the economics of it just didn't add up.

You're fooling yourself there. IF they did even test it, that's not the reason why they didn't do it. TO do AAX dsp meant that their plugins would have been able to work on Venu systems, which is in direct competition to digico (I've already stated this somewhere). The 70 years man hours were just BS, smoke in the eye, weak attempt to say why they might not doing, while their system has already been in development for probably a year after they were told about HDX by Avid. IN fact I suspect that it was already a joint venture before the announcement of AAX to most developers seeing how Waves have been moving toward digico for the past 3 to 4 years.

[Emcha_audio]

Hi,

So that was it? waves re hash their 2 year old sound grid to work in pro tools and team up with Soundtracs, who are what tenth in the console field? to make an I/O to work with pro tools:confused:

Anti-climax


Chris

Actually, 3 years which put them smack on with the coming of HDX. Weird eh?

[nst7]

Further thickening the plot - they will be opening up Soundgrid (and I assume DigiGrid) to other plugin companies, not just Waves plugins.

Check out this announcement:


"Waves Audio SoundGrid® Platform Grows in Popularity, Opens Up to Third-Party Plugin Developers

In late 2010, Waves Audio (booth 6824) introduced its SoundGrid® platform, which offers Waves Audio-over-Ethernet networking and processing for low-latency real-time professional audio applications. Rapidly growing in popularity since its release, the SoundGrid platform now is used to provide live sound processing for many of the biggest names in entertainment, including Rihanna, Taylor Swift, Bruce Springsteen, Maroon 5, Ozzy Osbourne and many more. Beyond the world of live sound, SoundGrid is scheduled for full compliance with the IEEE’s latest AVB (Audio Video Bridge), in addition to Waves AEB (Audio Exclusive Broadcast) protocols.

Waves recently celebrated the sale of their one thousandth SoundGrid DSP Server. Simultaneously, Waves has announced that it is releasing its API (application programming interface) for third-party developers. This means that in the very near future, Waves SoundGrid platform will support not only Waves plugins, but plugins from other developers as well, beginning with those associated with Plugin Alliance. Users will benefit from SoundGrid’s unparalleled power and performance over an ever-expanding range of professional audio tools.
"We are excited to see what Waves has developed with the SoundGrid technology, and will be looking into porting some of our real-time tools for SoundGrid in 2013", says Dirk Ulrich, CEO of Plugin Alliance USA and Brainworx Germany."

[TOM@METRO]

Yup, was told this very thing at NAMM today.

[sunburst79]

I'm just not seeing where this fits in. I suppose it depends on real world latency. I can see where it would be useful in a live situation. Recording, mixing or composing less so. The latency would have to be incredibly low to be of any use over UAD cards, VE Pro, Rewire, venue or whatever. I'm just not seeing were shipping audio or plugin information in and out of my computer and back in is going to be magically faster than building a more powerful machine.

Opening soundgrid up makes sense since partners could run their plugs on the system and it adds some value.

Note: Avid could bury this by offering distributed processing like Logics nodes. Double your power with Cat6 crossover cable ;)

[sunburst79]

What's nice is no one needs to buy this.

[Tobias Eichelberg]

This is a joke.
I was'nt expecting an AAX DSP announcement.
But seeing this, now i get why there is no AAX DSP port.

Bad move. verry bad move.

Bye bye Waves.

+1

[Marsdy]

You're fooling yourself there. IF they did even test it, that's not the reason why they didn't do it. TO do AAX dsp meant that their plugins would have been able to work on Venu systems, which is in direct competition to digico (I've already stated this somewhere). The 70 years man hours were just BS, smoke in the eye, weak attempt to say why they might not doing, while their system has already been in development for probably a year after they were told about HDX by Avid. IN fact I suspect that it was already a joint venture before the announcement of AAX to most developers seeing how Waves have been moving toward digico for the past 3 to 4 years.

Wrong yet again. SoundGrid was suggested to Avid as an alternative to them switching cores to the TI chips four years ago when Avid met with waves to discuss Avid's plans for HDX.

[crizdee]

Wrong yet again. SoundGrid was suggested to Avid as an alternative to them switching cores to the TI chips four years ago when Avid met with waves to discuss Avid's plans for HDX.

Lol can you imagine that! Avid moving over to soundGrid instead of their own HDX:D... "Will the last person to leave the DUC switch the lights off"


Chris

[CME]

And I'll just say to those worried about latency. It should be super low. I'm taken back by their decision, but latency should not be an issue. I dumped waves a couple of months ago and this does nothing to sway me back. But if you must have HDx and waves, this should be a very viable solution.

[Marsdy]

And I'll just say to those worried about latency. It should be super low. I'm taken back by their decision, but latency should not be an issue. I dumped waves a couple of months ago and this does nothing to sway me back. But if you must have HDx and waves, this should be a very viable solution.

It is a solution but bear in mind you can't access plugins running on the SoundGrid Server directly from Pro Tools. You do this in the Emotion mixer app which interfaces with Pro tools via an ASIO or Core Audio driver. The inputs and outputs to Emotion appear in Pro Tools just like an audio interface would. They even have "dummy" SoundGrid Pro Tools plugins that you use to automate the SoundGrid server plugs from within PT.

[M-ManLA]

I honestly believe Waves wanted to do HDX. There are 100,000 TDM systems out there. That's a LOT of potential upgrades they could have sold over the next few years assuming HDX really takes off. As I have said, they were still testing the viability of HDX until just a couple of months ago. They wanted the business but the economics of it just didn't add up.

Yes and no.

[M-ManLA]

Ok This is what one of the producers told me. He said that Waves and Avid never seen each other eye to eye on how to manage plugins on the host. So they make a networkable box with an Intel i5 inside it. Not sure but I'm sure it will cost, and at least give me an i7 for the price they will charge!

[ejwells]

The original marketing went something like this:
Waves introduces The APA HDerizer, to be discontinued by Q4 2014.

[Ru_C]

It is a solution but bear in mind you can't access plugins running on the SoundGrid Server directly from Pro Tools. You do this in the Emotion mixer app which interfaces with Pro tools via an ASIO or Core Audio driver. The inputs and outputs to Emotion appear in Pro Tools just like an audio interface would. They even have "dummy" SoundGrid Pro Tools plugins that you use to automate the SoundGrid server plugs from within PT.

Sounds like a complete clusterf**k of a workflow, full of driver problems & bugs....think i'll pass on that !

[DAPG]

I can say this for sure, my company will dump Waves completely (six Pro Tools systems). Adding another "box" to an already complex system is just too expensive, full of workflow hurdles, and full of potential system conflicts. This move by Waves will definitely give birth to new plugin developers who will fill the void caused by the the many users who will migrate away from Waves.

[sunburst79]

The soundgrid server is hosting the plugs and running Linux. That's interesting. No mention if its running them in something like WINE, a custom coded plugin shell or if they have ported the the plugs to Linux. It would be a real ball buster if they ported them to ALSA and developed a realtime patched version if Linux to host them but couldn't be bothered to code some DSP AAX versions.

[Eduardo Apolonia]

If a lot of people paid more money for the TDM versions (like I did on my Mercury bundle) and now Waves is ignoring us not developing AAX-DSP how can people trust them on this Soundgrid stuff???

How do I know that if I buy this stuff they will not drop it soon???

There is something called trust, and Waves dropping AAX-DSP development ignoring the premium that their customers (who made the company Waves is today) paid to have DSP plugins is making their reputation as trustful company going the same way as their AAX-DSP development.

Good luck Waves!!!

[Emcha_audio]

Wrong yet again. SoundGrid was suggested to Avid as an alternative to them switching cores to the TI chips four years ago when Avid met with waves to discuss Avid's plans for HDX.

As an alternative.. so the system was already in development.. IE before AAX was toned to anyone (but developpers). Exactly what I was saying. See the soundgrid system came out in 2010 (easy system to produce too since it's simple PC's) while the cards were released on oct 2011.. more than a year after the soundgrid system was being sold. Even if They did mention to Avid "hey why not use our system" while Avid was developing HDX, Avid would not go from a dsp based system that ensures low latency monitoring (lower than the soundgrid/digigrid system) to a native rig.

[Neil Pickles]

This is all leading to a horrible Frankenmachine as others have already pointed out if you want to use Waves as DSP.

Driver conflicts latency, delay compensation issues, Apple go to Snow Kitty Feral Cat MKIV Waves have an update for the new OS but Avid haven't done it yet or vica versa.....Arrrggghhhhh!!!!!

The whole point of HDX is a single tightly integrated powerful system running at low latency with known delay compensation etc. As soon as you bolt on bits it kind of misses the point.

I think I'd prefer a UAD card if I'm going that route.

I like Waves P.I's I will WUP to retain AAX in Native for recalls but I will not buy this Grid.

So as a HDX user it sucks and it sucks they're trying to sell it to me as a "solution" when the solution is to code the Waves I own as AAX DSP.

As an actual product for a native user who also does live sound, who moves between different systems etc etc it's got a lot of potential users and ticks a lot of boxes, in fact it could be really cool for those people. I kind of know/understand why they would build such a thing but it isn't for me though it could be great for a LOT of people. So it just comes down to economics they're trying to widen the user base and risk alienating a smaller group of people.

I'll get over it, it's just gear at the end of the day and if any of my plug ins by anyone stops working I can still do a good mix, might actually buy some more outboard, anyone else noticed the running costs of all Plug Ins is higher than they originally anticipated over a 5 year cycle? The real stuff starts looking not so expensive when you total it all up.

Ah well at least I can recall a mix Native AAX in PT11 when it drops, but when I looked in my currently WUP covered account I could find nothing about a V10 AAX installer......so if it isn't ready why the big fanfare. They said they would "support" AAX native about a year ago where is "The News" if it isn't ready?

Anyone else had a look for the new AAX versions in their WUP accounts?

And Marsdy Thanks for doing the petition even if the result isn't what anyone wanted AAX DSP. At least you tried ;-)

[John_Toolbox]

I don't think very many HDX owners will buy this. Because of the way it works, you're never going to be able to just open up an old tdm system with waves plugs on it and recall it. You're going to have to re route everything through this digigrid system, and once you get everything hooked up, you'll more than likely re-do all of your plug in settings inthe digigrid software, or at a minimum copy all of your (hopefully saved) plug in settings onto the digigrid system, and load them in there. If I have to do all of that, I'll just use another plugin, and dial it in.

If you must use waves plugins and hdx/hdn on new projects only, and don't have enough native processing available, this could be a way to do it, but as other's mentioned, since there are aax native versions of all of the waves plugins, why not just get a bigger computer? Unless I'm missing something this does not allow a seamless recall of old tdm/waves sessions, which is what seems to be what waves tdm users are wanting.

[Emcha_audio]

I don't think very many HDX owners will buy this. Because of the way it works, you're never going to be able to just open up an old tdm system with waves plugs on it and recall it. You're going to have to re route everything through this digigrid system, and once you get everything hooked up, you'll more than likely re-do all of your plug in settings inthe digigrid software, or at a minimum copy all of your (hopefully saved) plug in settings onto the digigrid system, and load them in there. If I have to do all of that, I'll just use another plugin, and dial it in.

If you must use waves plugins and hdx/hdn on new projects only, and don't have enough native processing available, this could be a way to do it, but as other's mentioned, since there are aax native versions of all of the waves plugins, why not just get a bigger computer? Unless I'm missing something this does not allow a seamless recall of old tdm/waves sessions, which is what seems to be what waves tdm users are wanting.

You can recall your settings by taking snapshots in the mulitrack host application in the menu window. That saves all the plugins configs and settings.

[Cliffy_Boy]

If you must use waves plugins and hdx/hdn on new projects only, and don't have enough native processing available, this could be a way to do it, but as other's mentioned, since there are aax native versions of all of the waves plugins, why not just get a bigger computer?

This my thinking. I can't imagine the effort to route Waves through another system and back into Protools, play with ASIO buffers and ProTolls buffers, possible lose ADC and deal with multiple conflicting updates as they happen which may break compatibility between systems.

Not to mention the cost of the Digigrid system.

My thoughts are since every plugin I now use are AAX DSP, or imminently DSP, I'd prefer to get a 2nd HDX card if I find myself running out of space and use my computer too run AAX Native Waves - without the hassle of sound grid and the continuous conflicts I foresee.

As I have mentioned in the past, I've replaced many 'go to' plugins with the hardware they were replicating. They all sound quantifiably better, will not have compatibility issues ever, and won't need to pay upgrade fees and suffer downtime waiting for Plugin updates all the time. I believe in the long run I will be ahead of the game cost-wise and sound-wise.

[00steef]

Waves "super low latency" can also mean many different things, like "only 10 ms" :D

eMotion and MultiRack have 0.8ms in-to-out latency.

This does not include I/O box latency, such as AD/DA latency.

When a DAW is connected to the SoundGrid® network using the SoundGrid® ASIO/CoreAudio driver its latency depends on the particular DAW.

[John_Toolbox]

You can recall your settings by taking snapshots in the mulitrack host application in the menu window. That saves all the plugins configs and settings.

You're talking about an exisiting digigrid session right?

What about someone with an older Pro Tools session with waves TDM plugins on the tracks. They've sold or traded in their TDM cards for an HDX setup, and haven't opened the session since they made the switch. What happens when they open the old session with an HDX card and digigrid setup? Does digigrid know what to do with all of the TDM instances of waves plugins?

How about if someone starts a session in an HDX studio with a digigrid box, saves it, then takes it to another HDX or HDN studio that has the AAX native version of the same waves plugins, but no digigrid box?

Maybe I'm just making assumptions, but as someone who has dealt with a lot of setups involving multiple computers, session recall is always an issue the minute you start hosting plugins or VI's outside of the primary computer, and the minute you add any kind of slave system, it generally makes it unlikely that your session will ever be able to be recalled on anything else without some fiddling around. Even something as simple as switching from Kontakt 4 to Kontakt 5 can be a lot messing around to recall an old session with a large VE pro setup.

[Marsdy]

You're talking about an exisiting digigrid session right?

What about someone with an older Pro Tools session with waves TDM plugins on the tracks. They've sold or traded in their TDM cards for an HDX setup, and haven't opened the session since they made the switch. What happens when they open the old session with an HDX card and digigrid setup? Does digigrid know what to do with all of the TDM instances of waves plugins?

How about if someone starts a session in an HDX studio with a digigrid box, saves it, then takes it to another HDX or HDN studio that has the AAX native version of the same waves plugins, but no digigrid box?

Maybe I'm just making assumptions, but as someone who has dealt with a lot of setups involving multiple computers, session recall is always an issue the minute you start hosting plugins or VI's outside of the primary computer, and the minute you add any kind of slave system, it generally makes it unlikely that your session will ever be able to be recalled on anything else without some fiddling around. Even something as simple as switching from Kontakt 4 to Kontakt 5 can be a lot messing around to recall an old session with a large VE pro setup.

The Emotion mixer won't read instances and settings from the Pro Tools session, Emotion being the host for the Waves SoundGrid PIs. Emotion communicates with the DAW via an ASIO or Core Audio driver. Pro Tools can automate PI s running in Emotion via a "dummy" PT plug in.

However, bear in mind that I'm a clueless idiot apparently.

[francois]

About a DIGIGRILL :D
a box with HD card ,PT HD8 (or higher) ,and a digital I/O only running TDM busses.
What would be the mean latency on that?

[Marsdy]

Forgot to say. Waves envisage a scenario were you might want to route all your DAW tracks to Emotion and mix entirely in Emotion if you want. Emotion supports HUI for control surface support. Again, don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.

[John_Toolbox]

The Emotion mixer won't read instances and settings from the Pro Tools session, Emotion being the host for the Waves SoundGrid PIs. Emotion communicates with the DAW via an ASIO or Core Audio driver. Pro Tools can automate PI s running in Emotion via a "dummy" PT plug in.

So obviously this is not going to recall old sessions using TDM waves plugins, or transfer between digigrid and non-digigrid equipped studios... but can you tell me more about this "dummy" plugin? If you save a PT session with the dummy plugins in it, do they automatically know what to recall in emotion? or do you need to save and recall your Emotion setup separately?

Just trying to get an idea of what to expect if I ever run into one of these setups.


However, bear in mind that I'm a clueless idiot apparently.

:confused: Huh? Unless what you just said is wrong, you answered my question.

[John_Toolbox]

About a DIGIGRILL :D
a box with HD card ,PT HD8 (or higher) ,and a digital I/O only running TDM busses.
What would be the mean latency on that?

Actually, I've done this before, and have been seriously considering doing it again so I can use some of my old TDM plugins. However, you have added an interesting twist to the concept. The idea of mounting everything in a GRILL is kind of cool. Especially if the rig includes a control surface with motorized faders, I could make some custom hamburger shaped faders. :D

[TOM@METRO]

The MixBurglar.

[sunburst79]

The MixBurglar.

Will HEAT run on a DigiGrill?

[AREED]

This product is a joke. Who is gonna actually buy this crap.

[John_Toolbox]

Will HEAT run on a DigiGrill?

Only with an Accel Smokerbox installed.

[Emcha_audio]

So obviously this is not going to recall old sessions using TDM waves plugins, or transfer between digigrid and non-digigrid equipped studios... but can you tell me more about this "dummy" plugin? If you save a PT session with the dummy plugins in it, do they automatically know what to recall in emotion? or do you need to save and recall your Emotion setup separately?

Just trying to get an idea of what to expect if I ever run into one of these setups.




:confused: Huh? Unless what you just said is wrong, you answered my question.

He's calling himself names so be it

The "dummy" he's referring to is the ability to see the interface in pt as well as in the insertspoints, borrowing on what UAD has been doing for a long time. The short answer to your question is no, if it hasn't been answered yet.

[ChrisSimon]

If they would at least give the possibility to outsource the DSP Power with an embedded GUI in ProTools, without Routing[bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep]...

Sorry, how crazy and not practical is it, in the days of integration, to think about first creating a Mixer in the Mixer to be able to put an EQ or compressor, especially when their plugs did a lot of "Bread and butter" jobs for a lot of PROS.

Really ridiculous to speak from good news!!!!!

[Mark Dann]

Maybe this is about copy protection. Nothing has worked all that well, has it?

[John_Toolbox]

Maybe this is about copy protection. Nothing has worked all that well, has it?

Well, if this sells as poorly as people seem to be reacting to it, you might be on to something... A product that nobody buys is not very likely to have that problem. :D

But seriously, if that was the reason they wouldn't be selling AAX native versions at all.

[CME]

Yep it makes no sense to me whatsoever. I think overcoming the AAX native shortcomings inside an HDx system will be much simpler than integrating Digigrid inside HDx. And a lot cheaper to boot. Just my .02.

[Marsdy]

So obviously this is not going to recall old sessions using TDM waves plugins, or transfer between digigrid and non-digigrid equipped studios... but can you tell me more about this "dummy" plugin? If you save a PT session with the dummy plugins in it, do they automatically know what to recall in emotion? or do you need to save and recall your Emotion setup separately?

Just trying to get an idea of what to expect if I ever run into one of these setups.




:confused: Huh? Unless what you just said is wrong, you answered my question.

Sorry!!! That last comment was a facetious response to some abuse.

I was told the 'dummy' plug in was just a means of automating Emotion plug-ins from within Pro Tools.

[Marsdy]

Well, if this sells as poorly as people seem to be reacting to it, you might be on to something... A product that nobody buys is not very likely to have that problem. :D

But seriously, if that was the reason they wouldn't be selling AAX native versions at all.

Exactly. As I've just said elsewhere, Waves is well aware of the extent to which it gets pirated. However, they are big enough to take the hit and make a healthy profit selling to honest users.

[daish]

Give them less than a year to realise they took the wrong way (Such a pretentious one...), then, since they will allready have AAX native, they'll make DSP Versions, because it´s the obvious choice to stay in buisness...

Don't worry...

(Sorry for my english, that´s why I rarely post...)

[sunburst79]

I still believe a large part of the problem is how to monetize the AAX DSP coding cost in a capped WUP world.

[upscaps]

After soaking up the info/specs there is no way I would approve the purchase of this unit for us. There is nothing that Waves has that is a "must" to track through that hasn't been replaced. AAX-Native is good enough for the 2-3 Post plug-ins and 1-2 Music plug-ins Waves has that cannot be replaced at this time. Freeze feature in the upcoming PT 11 will free the cpu on the music side if needed.

[SOUNDDECISION]

After soaking up the info/specs there is no way I would approve the purchase of this unit for us. There is nothing that Waves has that is a "must" to track through that hasn't been replaced. AAX-Native is good enough for the 2-3 Post plug-ins and 1-2 Music plug-ins Waves has that cannot be replaced at this time. Freeze feature in the upcoming PT 11 will free the cpu on the music side if needed.

I agree 100%

I will be amazed if they sell even one of these....seriously....

[crizdee]

I still believe a large part of the problem is how to monetize the AAX DSP coding cost in a capped WUP world.

hi,

I'de like to know how many TDM mercury owners have been paying $200 now $300 every year WUP solely to have their (Twice the price) DSP bundle working in the latest Pro Tools!

Anyone who bought TDM bundles in the last year or so have been conned.

Good to know where all our investment has gone:(


Chris

[upscaps]

hi,

I'de like to know how many TDM mercury owners have been paying $200 now $300 every year WUP solely to have their (Twice the price) DSP bundle working in the latest Pro Tools!

We all purchase things to the get the job done and Mercury has more than paid for itself 1000 times over with the billables and just the free plugins that came with it. It's all a tax write-off/business expense. This is a crossroads for those of us who have gone HDX and we have to adjust accordingly.

[mattrussell]

What's nice is no one needs to buy this.

this is where i stand on the issue and while that line made me laugh, it's really not funny.

i run a TDM rig in my main mix room, a laptop running PT natively (both on 9.05 btw) and i have two venue consoles. the venue consoles each have a waves platinum bundle and i can't count the number of waves plugs i own for my PT rig(s) - diamond, studio classics, CLA comps, the maserati bundle and countless singles.

i've been looking forward to taking the plunge into more desks (if they would finally come out with a small one, i'd buy 6 of them before the summer is over) and to updating my TDM rig to an HDX rig for a while. been waiting for the dust to settle and now i'm more or less waiting for PT11 as 10 seemed like such a nightmare for so many. besides, my rig works fine and hasn't slowed me down at all - it's still making me good money every day without a hiccup.

this new set of waves boxes seems to be a tremendously poor choice in direction for them. i feel like i'm being alienated. i know some people over there and i love the constant support i get from them, but this looks really, really bad. so many of us have been thinking about other brands with the news that DSP just isn't going to happen and now it's pretty clear why it won't. oof, this is ugly.

i'm thrilled to run the PT plugs i know and love on my live consoles. it's nothing short of brilliant and even after all these years of doing this, i can never get over how much i love it. i actually sit there smiling sometimes while i'm mixing. so, if this is what it takes for owners of other brands of consoles to really use waves live, ok fine. that's obviously not the case here though and what's worse, this feels like it's all done being done under the guise of "use it live", but what this really is, is waves moving into the land of UAD and it's NOT what their current users want.

we want to see a clear path to using waves at the highest levels possible without having to buy, install and potentially carry another piece of hardware. AAX DSP will certainly deliver a lot more horsepower than most of us will need in the next 10 years and i (and many others) just don't want to buy another box to run PT on. the fact that i need a new card to replace my HD2 and a new interface is tough enough.

so, i've been looking at McDSP for a while now. in my situation, i have to consider that avid will need to make AAX happen on their future live consoles (i have NO knowledge of this, but i can't imagine TDM will carry on in venue desks in the next generations - now THAT would be silly). colin's stuff looks more and more appealing to me. waves is caught up in something that i fear will leave me stranded and that's what i think is most upsetting to faithful users and owners of their products. meanwhile, colin just keeps pushing forward.
waves is almost looking backwards - does any music guy need more horsepower than what AAX DSP can deliver? i'd be going PT native tomorrow if i could drop an extra $1k to get HEAT running natively - without hesitation. i might still go native as my 6 year old mac pro STILL kicks ass and i NEVER run out of RTAS power even with heavy track counts and utterly ridiculous plug in counts.

what would i do with one of those waves boxes? truth be told, nothing i can't do now with my TDM rig. going forward, i guess i will need to update my system(s), but not with waves. i'll start by making some moves with colin's eq's and comps and then onto other things over time.

wow. i think i just realized i'm going to move away from my fav plug in company. it's a strange day and one i never looked forward to. good god guys, make the DSP thing happen or you're going to lose so many more users than you'll gain. i just don't see it any other way.

m

[Carl Kolchak]

Well they seem to have succeeded in changing their company name from a noun, in to an adjective...


Waves (goodbye).

[ChrisSimon]

this is where i stand on the issue and while that line made me laugh, it's really not funny.

i run a TDM rig in my main mix room, a laptop running PT natively (both on 9.05 btw) and i have two venue consoles. the venue consoles each have a waves platinum bundle and i can't count the number of waves plugs i own for my PT rig(s) - diamond, studio classics, CLA comps, the maserati bundle and countless singles.

i've been looking forward to taking the plunge into more desks (if they would finally come out with a small one, i'd buy 6 of them before the summer is over) and to updating my TDM rig to an HDX rig for a while. been waiting for the dust to settle and now i'm more or less waiting for PT11 as 10 seemed like such a nightmare for so many. besides, my rig works fine and hasn't slowed me down at all - it's still making me good money every day without a hiccup.

this new set of waves boxes seems to be a tremendously poor choice in direction for them. i feel like i'm being alienated. i know some people over there and i love the constant support i get from them, but this looks really, really bad. so many of us have been thinking about other brands with the news that DSP just isn't going to happen and now it's pretty clear why it won't. oof, this is ugly.

i'm thrilled to run the PT plugs i know and love on my live consoles. it's nothing short of brilliant and even after all these years of doing this, i can never get over how much i love it. i actually sit there smiling sometimes while i'm mixing. so, if this is what it takes for owners of other brands of consoles to really use waves live, ok fine. that's obviously not the case here though and what's worse, this feels like it's all done being done under the guise of "use it live", but what this really is, is waves moving into the land of UAD and it's NOT what their current users want.

we want to see a clear path to using waves at the highest levels possible without having to buy, install and potentially carry another piece of hardware. AAX DSP will certainly deliver a lot more horsepower than most of us will need in the next 10 years and i (and many others) just don't want to buy another box to run PT on. the fact that i need a new card to replace my HD2 and a new interface is tough enough.

so, i've been looking at McDSP for a while now. in my situation, i have to consider that avid will need to make AAX happen on their future live consoles (i have NO knowledge of this, but i can't imagine TDM will carry on in venue desks in the next generations - now THAT would be silly). colin's stuff looks more and more appealing to me. waves is caught up in something that i fear will leave me stranded and that's what i think is most upsetting to faithful users and owners of their products. meanwhile, colin just keeps pushing forward.
waves is almost looking backwards - does any music guy need more horsepower than what AAX DSP can deliver? i'd be going PT native tomorrow if i could drop an extra $1k to get HEAT running natively - without hesitation. i might still go native as my 6 year old mac pro STILL kicks ass and i NEVER run out of RTAS power even with heavy track counts and utterly ridiculous plug in counts.

what would i do with one of those waves boxes? truth be told, nothing i can't do now with my TDM rig. going forward, i guess i will need to update my system(s), but not with waves. i'll start by making some moves with colin's eq's and comps and then onto other things over time.

wow. i think i just realized i'm going to move away from my fav plug in company. it's a strange day and one i never looked forward to. good god guys, make the DSP thing happen or you're going to lose so many more users than you'll gain. i just don't see it any other way.

m

+1

[Carl Kolchak]

To be fair to Waves, if this is priced right, I can see it appealing to a lot of native systems users (i.e people who have been reluctant to upgrade to either HD Native, or HDX).

If you want to run Pro Tools natively, with pseudo DSP, and buy up 2nd hand blue-face 192's as they become more available.

Doesn't appeal to me, or serve the needs of most HDX users, but I can see it eating in to Avid's intended market of people making the move up to HD.

[Ru_C]

+1

+2

[Emcha_audio]

To be fair to Waves, if this is priced right, I can see it appealing to a lot of native systems users (i.e people who have been reluctant to upgrade to either HD Native, or HDX).

If you want to run Pro Tools natively, with pseudo DSP, and buy up 2nd hand blue-face 192's as they become more available.

Doesn't appeal to me, or serve the needs of most HDX users, but I can see it eating in to Avid's intended market of people making the move up to HD.

What I'd like to know, and they yet to tell, is which soundgrid server they have integrated in the box, or will they have scalable servers like they did in the past. Without specs they could be passing the lowest of their soundgrid server (which is the compact server which is dwarfed by any home PC's since 2 years ago) to the unsuspecting buyer.

[crizdee]

We all purchase things to the get the job done and Mercury has more than paid for itself 1000 times over with the billables and just the free plugins that came with it. It's all a tax write-off/business expense. This is a crossroads for those of us who have gone HDX and we have to adjust accordingly.

Well, although it is nice getting extra plugins as a Mercury owner! thats not what WUP is about and its not every WUP purchaser that gets free plugins! we pay an annual fee to keep up to date! so when our DAW moves forward so do we.

I would have expected some of our WUP funds to go towards a slow but definite roll out of AAX DSP.

They sold us on using DSP plugins at twice the price because we bought the DSP cards and now its either use native which is not an option for a lot of people who are maxing their computer CPU already. or buy into their new system at a premier price i dare say.

My 8 core is maxxed already on the CPU and i have 6 accel cards to do the DSP load. Waves native only means either stop using waves as much as i do now or make a complete switch to their new system

Unfortunately more reason for me to stay on my TDM system and not upgrade!! but thats not the sort of thing Avid wants to hear.


Chris

[CME]

I'm a native guy, but have considered HD as a future move. When waves first balked at AAX DSP I decided to look elsewhere and sell my platinum bundle. Then there was the posts on waves Facebook about something for HDx guys. I decided I'd at least keep up with what they were gonna do. When I heard about the Digigrid stuff I pretty much forgot waves ever existed.

McDSP, Metric Halo, and slate digital now cover most of my needs. They have all either transitioned to or announced plans to support AAX native and DSP. :)

[upscaps]

Well, although it is nice getting extra plugins as a Mercury owner! thats not what WUP is about and its not every WUP purchaser that gets free plugins! we pay an annual fee to keep up to date! so when our DAW moves forward so do we.

I would have expected some of our WUP funds to go towards a slow but definite roll out of AAX DSP.

They sold us on using DSP plugins at twice the price because we bought the DSP cards and now its either use native which is not an option for a lot of people who are maxing their computer CPU already. or buy into their new system at a premier price i dare say.

My 8 core is maxxed already on the CPU and i have 6 accel cards to do the DSP load. Waves native only means either stop using waves as much as i do now or make a complete switch to their new system

Unfortunately more reason for me to stay on my TDM system and not upgrade!! but thats not the sort of thing Avid wants to hear.


Chris

Waves has stated they were not doing aax-dsp for a very long time. As I said we all have to make adjustements. We went hdx on all our systems and the adjustment were to find replacements for waves. There r better plugins out there.

Your adjustment is to stay with ur avid hd6 because waves is not doing aax-dsp. I refuse to let waves, apple, avid, or any company hold us hostage and stop us from tech advancement.

My point on mercury is that many of us mercury users have more than made our investment back many times over. Add in the tax write-off for the original purchase price and wup's and it made it much easier to walk away and move on.

[dave911]

Waves makes plugins that work in lots of different systems, including PT native.
It looks like your letting Avid decide which plugins you can run because their hardware is a closed proprietary solution.

[Snap]

Hahaha! What was Waves thinking?
The cost/benefit analysis is clear for most small and large studio owners I've talked to in town. It's much easier to dump Waves for alternative plug-ins rather than dump Pro Tools for another DAW.
No one who spent upwards of $5,000 to upgrade to HDX is very keen on purchasing yet more hardware.

Goodbye for now Waves...

[bacchus40]

and this whole BS is a surprise, how?

whatever Waves...

not interested in purchasing HDx only to purchase more hardware to run your crappy plugins... get over yourselves...

This is a joke.
I was'nt expecting an AAX DSP announcement.
But seeing this, now i get why there is no AAX DSP port.

Bad move. verry bad move.

Bye bye Waves.

but this is exactly what most of us thought Waves was on about.. and why we stopped visiting the various threads and just quietly
walked away... I already knew months ago Waves has absolutely nothing for me sticking with ProTools HD & HDX in the future... it was a moot point..

this move is beyond stupid, specially considering how many figured out the game plan... just proves we were all right for dropping Waves altogether...

i mean.. the FaceBook post just showed us how completely out of touch they are... sending cryptic messages to Avid DUC was hilarious to say the least.!!

[the glass is half empty]

My point on mercury is that many of us mercury users have more than made our investment back many times over. Add in the tax write-off for the original purchase price and wup's and it made it much easier to walk away and move on.

We may have made our money back but the fact remains that it is money already spent. Having to buy into something new will cost more money.

[upscaps]

It looks like your letting Avid decide which plugins you can run because their hardware is a closed proprietary solution.

No different than it's always been. Pro Tools has always been a closed proprietary system. That works for the Post & Music rooms in our facility over the past decade. Plus Waves is still available as native if the two or three non replaceable plugins are needed.

We may have made our money back but the fact remains that it is money already spent. Having to buy into something new will cost more money.

You don't have to do anything. You can stand pat with your current systems. I will never ok a purchase for DigiGrid.

[John_Toolbox]

Doesn't appeal to me, or serve the needs of most HDX users, but I can see it eating in to Avid's intended market of people making the move up to HD.

I don't think this is going to interfere with Avid's lineup at all. Unless the price is better than buying an i7 PC and a copy of Vienna Ensemble Pro.... Because that's basically all this is, but not even, since it's dedicated to just waves stuff. I think I'd rather be able to run Anything, vi or plugin, on a dedicated slave machine than just dedicate a machine to one brand of plugin.

[dave911]

When I look at Avid's incrementally improved DSP solution and what Waves is trying to do I see yesterday and tomorrow.

As one of the Waves guys basically said at NAMM the x86-64 instruction set and processors are going to be around a long time and getting better all the time. The same for ethernet.

That's because there is a whole ecosystem built around these standards.
HDX leads nowhere except another closed DSP solution from Avid (if they are still around).

Waves already has soundgrid for a number of consoles, now PT and is working with a bunch of interface makers.

If they open up the plugin API fully these systems will be a great value and they will get better every year as they drop in new Intel CPU's and motherboards - with no need to change the code.

[nst7]

I don't think this is going to interfere with Avid's lineup at all. Unless the price is better than buying an i7 PC and a copy of Vienna Ensemble Pro.... Because that's basically all this is, but not even, since it's dedicated to just waves stuff. I think I'd rather be able to run Anything, vi or plugin, on a dedicated slave machine than just dedicate a machine to one brand of plugin.


Actually they've announced they are opening it up to other plugin companies, which makes it even more interesting.

[Darryl Ramm]

Actually they've announced they are opening it up to other plugin companies, which makes it even more interesting.

And lets watch those other plugin companies rush to support Waves...

This dog don't hunt, and its covered in fleas.

Darryl

[upscaps]

Because that's basically all this is, but not even, since it's dedicated to just waves stuff. I think I'd rather be able to run Anything, vi or plugin, on a dedicated slave machine than just dedicate a machine to one brand of plugin.

This thing is going to flame out but honestly if it was "UAD DigiGrid" and not "Waves DigiGrid" I would get one for all our rooms in a second. UA plugins trounce Waves.

And lets watch those other plugin companies rush to support Waves...

We know that's not going to happen.

[TOM@METRO]

I don't think this is going to interfere with Avid's lineup at all. Unless the price is better than buying an i7 PC and a copy of Vienna Ensemble Pro.... Because that's basically all this is, but not even, since it's dedicated to just waves stuff. I think I'd rather be able to run Anything, vi or plugin, on a dedicated slave machine than just dedicate a machine to one brand of plugin.
They told me the box would run about four grand.

[philip888]

They told me the box would run about four grand.
UAD is my future. Will never look back.

[bacchus40]

They told me the box would run about four grand.


seriously!!??? WTF are they smoking..!! :o :rolleyes:

i thought the new weed laws were only for Washington & Colorado... apparently not.!

[Emcha_audio]

They told me the box would run about four grand.

*shakes head*

So let's say You already invested into a 2 card system, with 4 16 I/O for each card to get a total of 128 I/O (just for the sake of comparing at the same numbers of I/O) You're already up as a 35k investment, now you'd have to add an other 4 k on top of that just to be able to keep using their plugins in a native fashion? (yes I say native, because it's a frigging computer not a DSP system like the HD accel, HDX or Uad cards). I think they have received a few menhir on the head.

[Mark Ziebarth]

The Emotion mixer won't read instances and settings from the Pro Tools session, Emotion being the host for the Waves SoundGrid PIs. Emotion communicates with the DAW via an ASIO or Core Audio driver. Pro Tools can automate PI s running in Emotion via a "dummy" PT plug in.

Looks like a lot of workarounds are going on when combining Pro Tools with DigiGrid. I'm working on a lot of projects and depend on the instant recall functionality Pro Tools (and other DAWs) provides. Any additional software that needs my attention for saving and backing up projects complicates the workflow. I don't need to buy it and will not.

Best

Mark

[bacchus40]

now i dont even see how this helps those with HDNative either... meaning i already spent the $$ on my native card, and I have my I/Os, how is this a solution? looks more like a half arsed replacement attempt.. thanks.. the reason I went with Avid HD native is to run AVID HD GEAr!! that is THE NEW HD I/Os... running legacy does not interest me and is not a selling point... i'm fine sticking with the new line, in fact, i'd rather do so!!

i'm confused as to how the bloody thing will even work in the 1st place... wow...

After soaking up the info/specs there is no way I would approve the purchase of this unit for us. There is nothing that Waves has that is a "must" to track through that hasn't been replaced. AAX-Native is good enough for the 2-3 Post plug-ins and 1-2 Music plug-ins Waves has that cannot be replaced at this time. Freeze feature in the upcoming PT 11 will free the cpu on the music side if needed.

thats really the point i'm sitting at, if i'm not interested in purchasing a UAD card just so i can run their plug ins, i'm sure as hell not gonna do that for WAVES 2-3 PLUgs i do use...

i'm just sitting back waiting for McDsp, Soft Tube, Slate, etc etc to do their thing... i already know what plug ins im' happy with... and i cand def. live without waves dsp...



my workflow is within Pro Tools HD/Native and my I/Os... anything outside of that does not enter into the conversation... unless its HDX and the above stated plug ins in AAX DSP.

[clausiii]

I only read that:"In the studio, DiGiGrid systems deliver real-time, ultra low latency Waves plugin processing and monitoring capabilities, for all major DAW hosts and are powered by Intel-based Waves SoundGrid DSP servers, connected using standard Cat 5e or Cat 6 cables. Multiple I/Os..."

Does that that mean that it is not able to work faster than realtime???

[Emcha_audio]

I only read that:"In the studio, DiGiGrid systems deliver real-time, ultra low latency Waves plugin processing and monitoring capabilities, for all major DAW hosts and are powered by Intel-based Waves SoundGrid DSP servers, connected using standard Cat 5e or Cat 6 cables. Multiple I/Os..."

Does that that mean that it is not able to work faster than realtime???

Yeah, those on other daws that uses offline bouncing, won't be able to use that system. Since the audio has to be routed from your DAW to the soundgrid server and back to your DAW to print of bounce. Which means if yo uget PT 11 and offline bouncing or even freeze track is part of the package, and you get that system to run the waves plugs... you're screwed.

[John_Toolbox]

Yeah, those on other daws that uses offline bouncing, won't be able to use that system. Since the audio has to be routed from your DAW to the soundgrid server and back to your DAW to print of bounce. Which means if yo uget PT 11 and offline bouncing or even freeze track is part of the package, and you get that system to run the waves plugs... you're screwed.

Actually, VE pro can handle offline bounce, so this thing possibly could be made to work with offline bounce if it doesn't already... But I'd never trust it to be sample accurate.

[John_Toolbox]

Actually they've announced they are opening it up to other plugin companies, which makes it even more interesting.

They told me the box would run about four grand

And Waves thinks making AAX DSP versions of their plugs isn't worth it? Can't wait to see what other developers have to say about this....

[Emcha_audio]

Actually, VE pro can handle offline bounce, so this thing possibly could be made to work with offline bounce if it doesn't already... But I'd never trust it to be sample accurate.

Right, that's true, but it's by rewiring it directly in pro tools. In this case waves is not using the rewire option, the protocol might be completely different there.

[rockridge]

... Waves thinks making AAX DSP versions of their plugs isn't worth it?...

I don't think that's it at all.
They may have just decided to leapfrog Avid.

After looking at their Emotion mixer, I'll bet that they have their own DAW and DSP solution in the works!

[dave911]

I don't think it will be a DSP system even if they do a DAW.
Doesn't look like the DAW companies are thriving so it may not be something they want to do.

Would love to see it though!

[SOUNDDECISION]

And Waves thinks making AAX DSP versions of their plugs isn't worth it? Can't wait to see what other developers have to say about this....

I'm sure it wont take Waves long to realize that doing this themselves isn't worth it either.

Based on the horrific response, I really wouldn't be surprised if they just do a quick "just kidding" and never actually finish or release it.

Or maybe this was just a "testing the waters" kind of thing and they will quickly say "good thing we didnt actually make this thing...close call"

Even if someone was interested in this (though I've yet to see one person excited) one would have to think twice about jumping on board with this since it will probably not be supported for long given the fact there will be very few, if any users.

The stupid thing on their part was they really should have just focused on their AAX native port and some people might have been happy rather than now facing all the negative reaction to this huge blunder.

Truthfully I would have no problem using waves native at this point for the few plugins I still "need" at mix time. If they had left it at that they would have won a few points rather than just piss everyone off with a product no one wants !

[Carl Kolchak]

The thing I find really baffling, is that their argument against supporting AAX DSP was largely based on the estimate that it would take "70 man years" to transition their entire portfolio.

That coupled with their argument that they were only seeing something like a 1.5 X boost in performance, lead them to conclude that it was not financially viable.

Firstly, AAX DSP (and by extension HDX) is aimed solely at the professional market - native users, hobbyists, enthusiasts etc are excluded from the equation not as a matter of snobbery or elitism, but purely and simple as a reality of the hardware.

Straight away you've eliminated the need to port a large number of Waves plugins, aimed mostly at the bedroom market, as well as a significant number of plugins that never were, or have not been for a very long time, part of the professional workflow.

Why on earth did waves not exclusively poll registered HDX owners, and establish a list of mission critical waves plugins, that could be incrementally ported to AAX DSP?

They could have easily transitioned a plugin every couple of months, going down the list of most currently used / needed, and ended up porting legacy plugins (though it may be viable in the short term to save PT11 sessions in PT 10 / 8 / 5 whatever format, and open them on the legacy system).

With regards to the 1.5 X improvement in performance, besides that being a relative term (the PS2 was way more powerful than the PS1, but still suffered many of the same type of problems because so much more was being demanded of it), that's not really Waves concern. It's for us to decide if it's a deal breaker - and I'm betting more of us would be happy to deal with that, over having to deal with the solution Waves has proposed.

I can't believe that they didn't have the smarts to think the situation through in those most basic of terms, which really only suggest that at the time Avid invited Waves to discuss TDM's replacement, Waves had already seen an opportunity go their own route, and pounced.

[necjamc]

Sounds to me like their concept of time to make DSP versions was proportionate to the resources they were putting toward this solution. Perhaps the R&D on this was already in place long before HDX and AAX. Which would essentially leave any decisions at that point moot. All minds were made up and Waves were scrambling to come up with a way to bullsh*t the masses. Avid kept quiet and let the rest of the pack up the anti. In the end the landscape changes and who wins are those that find a solution that works. Regardless of the companies they choose. I can't believe Waves ever intended even looking into DSP because they must have made this decision before.
My 2 cents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob Olhsson]

There is one area where I think soundgrid could become a "must" for high-end studios. That's third party virtual instrument performance. It's massive memory capabilities could be a real game-changer if it's as fast as they claim.

It's also important to realize this is a Digico product running waves software and the system has been in extensive use with Digico, Yamaha and Allen & Heath consoles for some time. I think the main news here is their software mixer and the support for Pro tools HD interfaces and cards. It's not a replacement for HDX but I don't think they have ever claimed it is.

[TOM@METRO]

There is one area where I think soundgrid could become a "must" for high-end studios. That's third party virtual instrument performance. It's massive memory capabilities could be a real game-changer if it's as fast as they claim.

It's also important to realize this is a Digico product running waves software and the system has been in extensive use with Digico, Yamaha and Allen & Heath consoles for some time. I think the main news here is their software mixer and the support for Pro tools HD interfaces and cards. It's not a replacement for HDX but I don't think they have ever claimed it is.
I'm curious Bob. How would this differ from running VIs in VEPro on a separate computer?

[froyo]

Hello. I think everyone realizes this whole load of BS they've been feeding about why they are not doing DSP is very transparent. It falls apart when they also tell you they will sell you a Native version. If they were NOT doing AAX at all that would be one thing, but the minute they jump in with a Native version it means at worst they would be one year away from the DSP version.

The fact that they are not doing DSP versions, coupled with this partnership with Digico selling hardware I think points to the fact that they consider Digidesign as competitors in the live audio market, which seems to be where they look to be hitching their wagon for the future. Selling hardware to other markets in audio, and leaving their highly pirated software presence in music/post in the background.

That's the way it reads right now. Because from everyone's reaction to Digigrid you can plainly see that in the music and/or post market it will be clunky at best and I sincerely doubt it will ever become a force. Remember their APA hardware? I think in live audio, system installs, etc Digigrid has a shot at being very profitable for them. Time will tell I suppose.

By the way, as I mentioned in the other thread, I don't think you can blame them or vilify them if they have decided to sell hardware going forward to stay profitable, and leave their highly pirated software in the backburner so to speak.

[Bill Denton]

The thing I find really baffling, is that their argument against supporting AAX DSP was largely based on the estimate that it would take "70 man years" to transition their entire portfolio.

That coupled with their argument that they were only seeing something like a 1.5 X boost in performance, lead them to conclude that it was not financially viable.

Kindly post a link to an official statement from Waves where they made those statements.

Oh, you can't, but you read it on the internet so it must be true? This information came from a user who claimed to be "plugged in" (pun intended with Waves plans), not a Waves spokesman. This user claimed that Waves wouldn't say it themselves because they didn't want to "let the cat out of the bag" about what they had up their sleeves.

Well, whatever Waves might have had up their sleeves is no longer there, so where's the official statement?

Now, let's talk about the products Waves has put on the table...

Waves has done a poor-to-nonexistent-job of answering these fundamental questions:

1. What market segment(s) are these products aimed at? I downloaded the DigiGrid brochure, and the term I saw most often was "broadcast". Funny...I thought NAMM was a music-oriented trade show.

2. What do each of the products do, and why do they exist? I kinda figured out some of that from the brochure, but I was left asking "does the world need another whatever?"

3. How do these products fit together, and how do they integrate with existing equipment and workflows? I found one box that seems to be a plugin "server", but it also has a bunch of I/O stuff. Why is that? Is it supposed to be some kind of answer to UAD's Apollo, which I am guessing is required to provide low-latency performance through plugins?

I personally think Waves is headed in the right direction by moving away from third-party DSP solutions (i.e. HDX). Avid has become a textbook case of marketing mistakes and poor customer relationship management in the audio segment, I think it would be foolish of Waves to be totally dependent on them considering the costs of converting their existing TDM products to AAX DSP.

Some are saying that Waves' use of off-the-shelf Intel processors provides an inferior solution to one that uses dedicated DSP processors. I am by no means an "electron head", but I am in IT, and there are numerous cases where general-purpose processors now do work that once required specialty processors, so don't count Waves out for their processor choice.

While Waves' DigiGrid technology choices are probably okay, their marketing of these new products is an unmitigated disaster. If Waves actually wants to sell DigiGrid into the music recording space, they need to pick one or two of the DigiGrid products and provide the answers to the three questions I asked above every type of communications media they can find, especially in forums such as this one, where so much misinformation originates and is compounded.

And Waves needs to do it now...

[crizdee]

[B]
While Waves' DigiGrid technology choices are probably okay, their marketing of these new products is an unmitigated disaster. If Waves actually wants to sell DigiGrid into the music recording space, they need to pick one or two of the DigiGrid products and provide the answers to the three questions I asked above every type of communications media they can find, especially in forums such as this one, where so much misinformation originates and is compounded.

And Waves needs to do it now...


Yeh I agree, I've downloaded the brochure, watched videos, read slutz and read the website.

The question of automating the Plugins has been asked here and on slutz yet none of the Waves experts have been able answer or decline to!

The namm video I watched the demo was using the live version of the emotion mixer as the DAW version was not ready yet.

The way it all connects and works with the Avid interfaces is surprising as Avid would have had to agree this etc!

I woukd have thought Avid could have struck a deal so waves supply AAX DSP and Avid allow their hardware to work Avid interfaces and cards.

Seems to me it's all in Waves favor!! They're selling it as a future proof solution for pro tools 11 and beyond using their hardware and pro tools native:confused:

Chris

[Bob Olhsson]

Thus far only Plug-in Alliance has suggested they are in but this IS very early. I'm sure one reason Waves showed it now was to interest other plug-in developers. The thing is that this isn't an HDX replacement or a project studio product.

One of the other things this does is to integrate a big Pro Tools rig with Digico and Yamaha consoles using just a Cat 6 connection. There's no reason it couldn't even send all the microphones to a Pro Tools rig somewhere across the world. Remote recording and broadcasts just got a whole lot easier!

[P,B,S]

It is a solution but bear in mind you can't access plugins running on the SoundGrid Server directly from Pro Tools. You do this in the Emotion mixer app which interfaces with Pro tools via an ASIO or Core Audio driver. The inputs and outputs to Emotion appear in Pro Tools just like an audio interface would. They even have "dummy" SoundGrid Pro Tools plugins that you use to automate the SoundGrid server plugs from within PT.

And then bounce it from sputnik to nasa off the satellite dishes from independence day movie ,wait for the email buy a new computer crappy i/o hook it all together then pray to the system configuration gods that it actually works. Couldnt be easier cuz Im not gonna need it . I have HDX :D

[P,B,S]

I woukd have thought Avid could have struck a deal so waves supply AAX DSP and Avid allow their hardware to work Avid interfaces and cards.

Seems to me it's all in Waves favor!! They're selling it as a future proof solution for pro tools 11 and beyond using their hardware and pro tools native:confused:

Chris

This could be why PT11 is past due.
Maybe they did they are just waiting for the loop hole to close .
Did they promise 64 compatibility . or even acceptance in that NEW as of yet unreleased platform.

[Marsdy]

Yeh I agree, I've downloaded the brochure, watched videos, read slutz and read the website.

The question of automating the Plugins has been asked here and on slutz yet none of the Waves experts have been able answer or decline to!

The namm video I watched the demo was using the live version of the emotion mixer as the DAW version was not ready yet.

The way it all connects and works with the Avid interfaces is surprising as Avid would have had to agree this etc!

I woukd have thought Avid could have struck a deal so waves supply AAX DSP and Avid allow their hardware to work Avid interfaces and cards.

Seems to me it's all in Waves favor!! They're selling it as a future proof solution for pro tools 11 and beyond using their hardware and pro tools native:confused:

Chris

Chris..... You might have missed my posts on this. It IS possible to automate plug-ins running on the SoundGrid DSP Server from within Pro Tools. Waves have developed a "dummy" Pro Tools plug-ins for this purpose.

I'm not condoning it, endorsing it, recommending it, suggesting it is an elegant solution, just clearing up that it WILL be possible.

[Marsdy]

There is one area where I think soundgrid could become a "must" for high-end studios. That's third party virtual instrument performance. It's massive memory capabilities could be a real game-changer if it's as fast as they claim.

It's also important to realize this is a Digico product running waves software and the system has been in extensive use with Digico, Yamaha and Allen & Heath consoles for some time. I think the main news here is their software mixer and the support for Pro tools HD interfaces and cards. It's not a replacement for HDX but I don't think they have ever claimed it is.

EXACTLY!!!!!

As far as Digico is concerned, Soundgrid is a means for them to enter the DAW market. This isn't just about Waves.

[Emcha_audio]

There is one area where I think soundgrid could become a "must" for high-end studios. That's third party virtual instrument performance. It's massive memory capabilities could be a real game-changer if it's as fast as they claim.

Not so much, You can already do that with a slave PC equiped of the latest cpu with 64 gig of ram or more, Running VEpro with VST plugs of your instruments library at 64 bi, and that's basically what they are proposing you, except that on top of that you have to deal with an other layer of mixer and complexity of routing that you didn't have with slaved PC. And it will still cost you less to run the slave pc yourselves, than buy the system waves is proposing.

Heck you can even run your waves plugins in VE pro and just mix the out put in Pro tools if you would want to, making the waves system useless for studios.

[Bob Olhsson]

Not so much, You can already do that with a slave.I did say IF it's as fast as they say.

I've been slaving multiple computers for over twenty years so that's nothing new to me. I think reducing latency is a big deal and a bigger one than most people realize. They are making some pretty extraordinary claims. If they can deliver on them, I think sound grid really could be a game changer.

[Marsdy]

Not so much, You can already do that with a slave PC equiped of the latest cpu with 64 gig of ram or more, Running VEpro with VST plugs of your instruments library at 64 bi, and that's basically what they are proposing you, except that on top of that you have to deal with an other layer of mixer and complexity of routing that you didn't have with slaved PC.


Jeez Manny take a break.......
There is a BIG FAT layer of "mixer and complexity of routing" within VE Pro and it's a PITA in conjunction with PT especially MIDI wise. Why else do so many VE Pro questions get asked on the DUC, VI Control etc?

If you start using VE Pro to process the outputs/sends from PT tracks it gets even worse.

It's every bit as convoluted as Emotion PLUS you have the MIDI routing to deal with.

Do you actually use this stuff or just read about it on the internet?

Honestly Manny, do yourself a favour and just move on. There are plenty of other threads.

[bacchus40]

i think that's kinda what he's getting at mate, i may be interpreting it wrong..

but he's pointing out the already complex solution to handling VIs in such a manner,
enough so that tossing yet another layer of Mix engine and routing would make it a pain
to utilize.. again... thats what it looks like to me... i'm glad i dont run a crapload of VIs though... thats a whole other animal i'd rather not deal with...



Heck you can even run your waves plugins in VE pro and just mix the out put in Pro tools if you would want to, making the waves system useless for studios.

and thats a big IF i think...

[Emcha_audio]

Jeez Manny take a break.......
There is a BIG FAT layer of "mixer and complexity of routing" within VE Pro and it's a PITA in conjunction with PT especially MIDI wise. Why else do so many VE Pro questions get asked on the DUC, VI Control etc?

If you start using VE Pro to process the outputs/sends from PT tracks it gets even worse.

It's every bit as convoluted as Emotion PLUS you have the MIDI routing to deal with.

Do you actually use this stuff or just read about it on the internet?

Honestly Manny, do yourself a favour and just move on. There are plenty of other threads.

Why don't you? And yes I do, when needed. There's also a lot of people who are asking very basic questions about pro tools out of pure laziness instead of reading the manual, also happens with VEpro, which they do have quite a good user manual that does explain how to do things.

[Emcha_audio]

i think that's kinda what he's getting at mate, i may be interpreting it wrong..

but he's pointing out the already complex solution to handling VIs in such a manner,
enough so that tossing yet another layer of Mix engine and routing would make it a pain
to utilize.. again... thats what it looks like to me... i'm glad i dont run a crapload of VIs though... thats a whole other animal i'd rather not deal with...



and thats a big IF i think...

Bingo, which is less expensive.

[bacchus40]

is this a trick question!? ;)

[Emcha_audio]

is this a trick question!? ;)

Nope just saying using VEpro on a slave comp is less expensive than buying the wave system.

[crizdee]

Chris..... You might have missed my posts on this. It IS possible to automate plug-ins running on the SoundGrid DSP Server from within Pro Tools. Waves have developed a "dummy" Pro Tools plug-ins for this purpose.

I'm not condoning it, endorsing it, recommending it, suggesting it is an elegant solution, just clearing up that it WILL be possible.

Hi,

I've read about the dummy but no mention of it being capable of automating the plugin or if plugin keyboard shortcuts work?

And is plugin automation going to be sample accurate?

Got any links to official documentation on this?


Chris

[bacchus40]

Nope just saying using VEpro on a slave comp is less expensive than buying the wave system.

i know... i was yankin' your chain.. :cool:

[musicman691]

Hi,

I've read about the dummy but no mention of it being capable of automating the plugin or if plugin keyboard shortcuts work?

And is plugin automation going to be sample accurate?

Got any links to official documentation on this?


Chris
Looks more and more like Marsdy knows WAY more about this than the average person on the street knows - I'm talking insider info if you will. Once again he won't give his real sources so we can independently check it out - we have to take his word for it. When will he learn it'll be easier on all of us if he just came clean with where his knowledge is coming from?

[Marsdy]

Hi,

I've read about the dummy but no mention of it being capable of automating the plugin or if plugin keyboard shortcuts work?

And is plugin automation going to be sample accurate?

Got any links to official documentation on this?

Chris

No link I'm afraid. I was told about the dummy PT plug-in direct from my source at Waves.

[Marsdy]

Looks more and more like Marsdy knows WAY more about this than the average person on the street knows - I'm talking insider info if you will. Once again he won't give his real sources so we can independently check it out - we have to take his word for it. When will he learn it'll be easier on all of us if he just came clean with where his knowledge is coming from?

Once again Jack, you troll virtually my every post and when it comes to the crunch you don't have the b**ls to admit you were wrong and have the decency to apologise. The best you can do is backpedal. LAME!

[musicman691]

Once again Jack, you troll virtually my every post and when it comes to the crunch you don't have the b**ls to admit you were wrong and have the decency to apologise. The best you can do is backpedal. LAME!
Not back pedaling at all. I called you out that you can't or won't come forward with official backing for your blabbering which you can't do. If it ain't in writing from an official source it doesn't exist. I don't consider what I do trolling your every post (there's a lot I let go by); don't know why you don't call others out that do the same thing I do. Now let's see who's got the cojones eh?

[Marsdy]

Not back pedaling at all. I called you out that you can't or won't come forward with official backing for your blabbering which you can't do. If it ain't in writing from an official source it doesn't exist. I don't consider what I do trolling your every post (there's a lot I let go by); don't know why you don't call others out that do the same thing I do. Now let's see who's got the cojones eh?

Jack --------> Ignore list... Your'e really not worth the effort :rolleyes:

[musicman691]

Jack --------> Ignore list... Your'e really not worth the effort :rolleyes:
No guts dude - no guts. You can't handle the truth.

[John_Toolbox]

Can we keep the posts about putting each other on ignore lists out of these discussions? It just creates a bunch of pages of "Push me! Shove You!" that everybody has to sift through when reading the more informative posts in these discussions. Nobody cares who's on your ignore list. Really.

[Marsdy]

Sorry John but you haven't shad ome guy spending months trying to discredit virtually EVERY statement you've made. And when they don't have the guts to admit I was right all along PERIOD, I think I deserve a little payback.

That said, I agree... It's time to move on.

[crizdee]

No link I'm afraid. I was told about the dummy PT plug-in direct from my source at Waves.

Oh OK! Seems your source at Waves is getting his information from the same Internet places as everyone else! At the same time as everyone else.

Can he tell us anything that isn't already out there on www?

Can you instantiate plugins direct from the pro tools mixer?
Do keyboard shortcuts work of automation?
Is automation sample accurate?
Can you save/recall the presets from within the pro tools session?

Running plugins on another computer/DAW is nothing new. Unless it can do the above it's going down the toilet.

Chris

[musicman691]

Can we keep the posts about putting each other on ignore lists out of these discussions? It just creates a bunch of pages of "Push me! Shove You!" that everybody has to sift through when reading the more informative posts in these discussions. Nobody cares who's on your ignore list. Really.
Thank you John. Quite frankly I don't care that I'm on someone's ignore list. To announce what he did just make Marsdy look the fool.

[John_Toolbox]

That was not directed just at you Dave, just to be clear. I've seen other people do the same thing. In general though, I think that if you are one of the people that tends to get in debates(you all know who you are!), that putting people you don't agree with on your ignore list is a bad idea if you are posting in the same threads as them. What it ends up doing is just making circular arguments even more circular, and makes the threads that much harder for everyone else to follow.

That being said, this topic is by no means stale, I still think there is plenty to talk about on this, so keep discussing away!

[sunburst79]

The toughest thing to do is to remain objective and not post sometimes. Its also important to not take things personally. Rather than ignore someone don't rise to the bait or feel the need to prove or refute every single point. You will sleep better.

[TOM@METRO]

I say... Arm Wrestling!!!

[Emcha_audio]

I say... Arm Wrestling!!!

lol

[musicman691]

I say... Arm Wrestling!!!
Naw; give me a good old WWF/E cage fight (or ECW for those on the East Coast).

[Marsdy]

Oh OK! Seems your source at Waves is getting his information from the same Internet places as everyone else! At the same time as everyone else.

Can he tell us anything that isn't already out there on www?

Chris

That's totally unfair Chris :rolleyes: You've clearly not been following my posts. Since the cat is out of the bag post NAMM, I'm going to name the ONE source of ALL the information I've posted on the DUC RIGHT from the start for two reasons:

Firstly, I've gone out of my way to defend Waves here on the DUC based on the information I've received at great cost to my own creditability. I've received nothing in return except the expectation that I spend a LOT of time explaining SoundGrid on the DUC INCLUDING sharing a LOT of information on Emotion which isn't yet on the WWW AFAIK. (I was given permission to by the way.)

For example:
Can you instantiate plugins direct from the pro tools mixer?

NO you can't.

I've posted a lot on Emotion and I really can't be arsed digging it up except for this:
http://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=2001655&postcount=366

You can always search the forum but sorry, I've had enough of this crap now. When you search, you'll find, I DO seem to know more about Emotion's workflow than anyone else here on the DUC.

On to the second reason. I feel stitched up. My source at Waves claimed it was going to take 72 man years to develop for HDX. I trust my source's word on this and go out of my way to defend his claim, again, at the expense of much ridicule. Now I hear quotes from Waves reps at NAMM claiming a MUCH lower figure. NICE..... NOT....

So who is my source and has been ALL along?....... Gilad Keren... CEO of Waves.

Sorry Gilad but I've had enough of taking SO much crap defending your company with ZERO return for my troubles. I was fully aware you were using me to push your own agenda but at the same time you were sharing information that I STILL believe to be correct and felt the PT community should be aware of, especially the stuff about how much Avid have screwed up in recent years.

Avid have known all along who my source is.... They've been giving him a REALLY hard time about it. Probably something to do with the fact they've got something to hide and didn't want the information in the public domain.

So..... To all those who doubted the validity of my source...

DUC's Terms of Servcice forbid me from truly expressing myself.

SoundGrid is of NO interest to me. I want Waves HDX and the fight isn't over yet by ANY means... And FWIW worth, I still think a lot of the Waves bashing round here has been as inane as it has been ridiculous and ill-informed.

[Marsdy]

I say... Arm Wrestling!!!

Ever considered a career in stand up comedy?

[Emcha_audio]

Dave aka marsdy.. Even if you put asteriks it's very plain what you are saying and it goes against the tos, calm down and you may want to rethink editing that post.

[Drew Mazurek]

That's enough guys. This is going to get shut down I'm sure.

[Marsdy]

That was not directed just at you Dave, just to be clear. I've seen other people do the same thing. In general though, I think that if you are one of the people that tends to get in debates(you all know who you are!), that putting people you don't agree with on your ignore list is a bad idea if you are posting in the same threads as them. What it ends up doing is just making circular arguments even more circular, and makes the threads that much harder for everyone else to follow.

That being said, this topic is by no means stale, I still think there is plenty to talk about on this, so keep discussing away!

Seems you are correct ;-) ....but point taken.

[John_Toolbox]

Dave, to avoid getting banned you should edit your post... but I'm glad you've gotten that off your chest. I can tell it was eating away at you badly. This is now Gilad's problem, and I'd just let him deal with it. Everyone else, there's really not any point in arguing about what Dave has said anymore unless Gilad either confirms or deny's it.

[bacchus40]

no need to get pissed off Marsdy, I believe you had already named your source at waves a couple days ago, but of course it wasnt clear to anybody else..

Unfortunately, you've gotten stuck in the middle of a pretty heavy discussion, we all have our own ideas, as customers, as to how certain things could have been handled by the parties involved, but it was not. I do believe it was pretty cheap of Waves to try to use you to leak some information that really has no real-world validity, only because its something that cannot be proven to be the real reason for Waves holding off on AAX DSP.

I am that is one open to discussion but from the standpoint of a pro tools customer the numbers being tossed around are pretty far fetched, and I believe i even mentioned a while back it would probably come back to bite those involved in the arse cause a lot can change in a month, and as we have seen from unnamed reports at NAMM, the 72year itch really does seem to be a bit out of left field,. Unfortunately, what is done, is done... Gilad Keren has made his bed, no reason you should hop in to keep him company, savvy?

Waves is well within their rights to go off on their own path, if they dont want to support AAX DSP, thats their mistake to make... alas, those of us who figured out the game plan a while back, quietly walked away and stopped hoping for Waves to throw us a life-line. It really comes down to our workflow and hard earned $$.. We personally do not think this magic box addresses the issues at hand, but apparently that is not for us to decide...

good luck with your new ventures Waves... its too bad you missed a great opportunity at creating a real discussion with your loyal customers..

[YYR123]

And the avid CS's should close the thread after that last - post well said - bravo

[DigiTechSupt]

Reopening the thread, please stay on topic and respect the Terms of Use (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=169558).

[asm]

It strikes me that the Waves DiGiGridDLS and DiGiGridDLI are what Avid should have released as an upgrade to Pro Tools HD instead of the HDX and HD Native PCIe cards.
The only real limitation that I see keeping the Digigrid product from being superior to HDX/HD Native cards in every respect is that Avid restricts the different versions of Pro Tools software; Pro Tools native with 32 I/O, HD native with 64 I/O and the voice counts.
Were Pro Tools software to function in these areas like every other DAW without the arbitrary limitations, Waves would undoubtedly have a superior product.
The issue of 3rd party plug-in compatability would not exist had Avid actually adopted the Digigrid hardware in lieu of developing their own (purely speculating here). Instead of being tied to $15000 worth of PCIe cards eventually headed for extinction, wouldn't this be an obvious replacement for hosting the Pro Tools mixer in DSP on an upgradeable system that performs the same functions only better?
In other words, it sounds like Avid missed the boat, not the other way around.

[Bob Olhsson]

I think they are very different products that compliment each other. I wouldn't assume we've seen what all HDX or HD Native can do yet. We're probably comparing a truck to a sports car without very much of an idea of even which is which yet.

[John_Toolbox]

It strikes me that the Waves DiGiGridDLS and DiGiGridDLI are what Avid should have released as an upgrade to Pro Tools HD instead of the HDX and HD Native PCIe cards.
The only real limitation that I see keeping the Digigrid product from being superior to HDX/HD Native cards in every respect is that Avid restricts the different versions of Pro Tools software; Pro Tools native with 32 I/O, HD native with 64 I/O and the voice counts.
Were Pro Tools software to function in these areas like every other DAW without the arbitrary limitations, Waves would undoubtedly have a superior product.
The issue of 3rd party plug-in compatability would not exist had Avid actually adopted the Digigrid hardware in lieu of developing their own (purely speculating here). Instead of being tied to $15000 worth of PCIe cards eventually headed for extinction, wouldn't this be an obvious replacement for hosting the Pro Tools mixer in DSP on an upgradeable system that performs the same functions only better?
In other words, it sounds like Avid missed the boat, not the other way around.

Unless Waves took over AVID and completely redesigned Pro Tools around this system so that everything integrated at the same level Pro Tools currently integrates with HD, HDX, or HDN cards, it would have been a horrible choice for AVID to use this in lieu of HDX... At least based on the way it integrates right now. Remember that Pro Tools has been the standard for a long time, so the ability to recall old sessions is a big deal for Pro Tools users.

There are still unanswered questions about digigrid... Is the extremely low latency they are advertising possible without the box being connected directly to a Pro Tools HD/HDX/HDN card, or will it be different if the box is connected to the computer via network only?

[asm]

I was not referring to how Pro Tools/DiGiGrid integrates now.

Instead of the audio flowing from the computer to HDX/HDN cards with DSP chips that are connected by PCIe, the audio could flow to the external box via ethernet cable. At one time I remember reading rumors that this is exactly what Avid had planned.

From a user perspective, Pro Tools would function exactly the same way that it does now. Plug-ins, the mixer and I/O would be instantiated in DSP on an external box instead of on a card.

This would allow more options in the future without being tied to PCIe cards, which I could see having a shorter life than the ethernet protocol (which every modern computer has access to). As Waves has demonstrated, the box could still be connected to HD interfaces. It seems that expandability would be more of an option using ethernet instead of PCIe.

Of course this is a moot point as this is not how things turned out.

[Bob Olhsson]

They have MADI to CAT 6 adapters too so the DSP server is really a piece of digital outboard gear that connects with CAT 6 and can be controlled from a computer. Their adapters allow patching anything between an HD interface and an HD card. If you wanted, you could probably drop a TC System 6000 in and record through a GML equalizer or use it and a Bricasi as reverbs.

[mattrussell]

I thik Avid is doing exactly what they should...releasing a new system that actually works...and ...allowing folks a year or two to bridge between the old and the new...makes perfect sense...doesn;t hurt anyone and allows third parties to either get involved or go away.

i've felt this way for a long time. they gave me time to put money together to make moves they knew i was going to have to make. they gave me time to prepare for change.

think about that for a second - how often does that happen? how often does a tech company come out and TELL YOU POINT BLANK, "if you want to stay current, what you own won't work in about a year or so, so save your money and get ready for big changes. it will lead to a better product and an overall more powerful system - like you've been asking for, but this is going to sting a bit". slow, painful transition starts. it hurts. not everything goes to plan, but at least you knew it was coming. the bigger changes are now right around the corner and if you planned right, you should be ready to go.

i'd take that EVERY time if could get it. waves has chosen to take a different approach.

the truth is, they're really not saying anything and what we have heard more or less confirms our worst fears. if you bought a TDM plug in in the last year, you've been duped and you know what, you kind of deserve it. what exactly did you expect to happen? avid has been open about upcoming changes and it's honorable. waves STILL isn't saying much. what they ARE saying speaks volumes though.

maybe i'm all wrong about this (and i say this because i usually am), but i still can't get over the sheer size of this misstep by waves. i haven't seen a company, audio or otherwise, do something like this in a really long time. it's like a 101 on how to blow up your customer base.

[groundcontrol]

The thing that everybody has to remember is that in a way, Avid/Digi have been a victim of its own success and has to be very considerate about how it goes about its new technology transition/introduction from now on. Something alot of the new comers don't have to deal with. Waves is in a similar position as a plugin company but not necessarily as a hardware/audio company.

[YYR123]

I thik Avid is doing exactly what they should...releasing a new system that actually works...and ...allowing folks a year or two to bridge between the old and the new...makes perfect sense...doesn;t hurt anyone and allows third parties to either get involved or go away.

Correcto-mundo my man - yes hats off to avid - but I would have liked to know if they knew waves was gonna pull this ****

[bacchus40]

I thik Avid is doing exactly what they should...releasing a new system that actually works...and ...allowing folks a year or two to bridge between the old and the new...makes perfect sense...doesn;t hurt anyone and allows third parties to either get involved or go away.

i'm with you there mate, i dunno, everybody's so quick for the latest and greatest, what happens when it gets here? are you suddenly gonna write a hit song? nope.. it just becomes one more tool...


i'm perfectly happy with Avid introducing a new system i can grown into, and give other companies a chance to write the code for their plug ins, without the insane pressure of NOW, SELL NOW!!..

it makes perfect sense to give the rest of the audio industry a couple years to catch up... as far as waves... blah... i'm done with all the chatter, i'm sure in a year and a half they'll be braggin' about
this new genius encoder who figured out how to do it over a long weekend, and not 72 years... and everybody will hop back on their bandwagon... this chit is getting old..

[musicman691]

Correcto-mundo my man - yes hats off to avid - but I would have liked to know if they knew waves was gonna pull this ****
Avid would have had to have known Waves was doing their own thing processing wise when Avid was supposedly asked by Waves to re-consider the dsp chips Avid was going to be using in the HDX cards. Wouldn't take reading tea leaves to figure it out.

[Brock Mixwell]

Avid would have had to have known Waves was doing their own thing processing wise when Avid was supposedly asked by Waves to re-consider the dsp chips Avid was going to be using in the HDX cards. Wouldn't take reading tea leaves to figure it out.

It goes deeper than that.

[musicman691]

It goes deeper than that.
How so? Details please.

[Marsdy]

Avid would have had to have known Waves was doing their own thing processing wise when Avid was supposedly asked by Waves to re-consider the dsp chips Avid was going to be using in the HDX cards. Wouldn't take reading tea leaves to figure it out.

Jeez..... First you spend an inordinate amount of time consistently attempting to discredit me and my source and now you're actually quoting us!!!! LOL....

Make your mind up dude. (Waiting for the sound of back-pedalling.)

[Emcha_audio]

Jeez..... First you spend an inordinate amount of time consistently attempting to discredit me and my source and now you're actually quoting us!!!! LOL....

Make your mind up dude.(Waiting for the sound of back-pedalling.)

1) Stop baiting to get a fight *this one applies to both*
2) Haven't you read the supposedly (http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/supposedly) in his sentence? Synonym Allegedly (http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/allege)

[musicman691]

1) Stop baiting to get a fight *this one applies to both*
2) Haven't you read the supposedly (http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/supposedly) in his sentence? Synonym Allegedly (http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/allege)
I was responding to YYR123 a couple of posts above. Wasn't going after Marsdy at all and wasn't quoting anyone. I've moved on from responding to him and am just engaging with others here. Besides I thought he had me on ignore?

[Emcha_audio]

I was responding to YYR123 a couple of posts above. Wasn't going after Marsdy at all and wasn't quoting anyone. I've moved on from responding to him and am just engaging with others here. Besides I thought he had me on ignore?

I know, but not when he's using tape-talk. In any case was just making sure it was understood by all, this back and forth, martyr and baiting is getting old.

[Marsdy]

1) Stop baiting to get a fight *this one applies to both*
2) Haven't you read the supposedly (http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/supposedly) in his sentence? Synonym Allegedly (http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/allege)

Manny..... With respect, I've had to put up with this guy trolling my posts and attempting to discredit me for months. You've been almost as bad.

I feel I'm entitled to a little payback

Avid would have had to have known Waves was doing their own thing processing wise when Avid was supposedly asked by Waves to re-consider the dsp chips

There is NO other place on the DUC or the WHOLE WWW where this information could have come from OTHER than my posts quoting my source on the subject.

That said... It's time to move on...

[John_Toolbox]

Sigh...... :(

[Emcha_audio]

Manny..... With respect, I've had to put up with this guy trolling my posts and attempting to discredit me for months. You've been almost as bad.

I feel I'm entitled to a little payback



There is NO other place on the DUC or the WHOLE WWW where this information could have come from OTHER than my posts quoting my source on the subject.

That said... It's time to move on...

If you want some payback, do it somewhere else than on this forum please.

[YYR123]

Reopening the thread, please stay on topic and respect the Terms of Use (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=169558).

I meant to leave it closed - topic is dead !!!! U will either buy it or not u either are pissed about it or not

Does anyone else ever get the feeling I have enough gear to do what I need to do - and I would rather not spend anymore money on gear that I don't need

If it fixes a problem u have - buy it - for most people we can always find a work around - this would mean another UI to run low latency mixes out of

[musicman691]

I know, but not when he's using tape-talk. In any case was just making sure it was understood by all, this back and forth, martyr and baiting is getting old.
Message received and understood by me.

[YYR123]

Where are we going? And why are we in this handbasket?


:p