Why Native vs. DSP Cards? [Archive] - Avid Pro Audio Community

justindbutler

04-28-2011, 08:56 AM

Can someone break this down for me? Or point me towards a thread that explains this more thoroughly? If I have a pretty powerful processor in my computer (Intel Core i7-930 2.8Ghz 8M LGA1366) would it be advantageous to use a Native card vs. core/core accel cards? Can I add in extra process cards in addition to the native card later on down the line?

Please advise, and thank you in advance.

Bill Denton

04-28-2011, 10:31 AM

It would help to know what you're doing, i.e. mixing and/or tracking, audio and/or post, large commercial studio vs project studio.

No personal knowledge, but from what I have read HD Native performance is better for mixing than for tracking, although a lot of people seem to be getting quite low latency when tracking.

And no, you can't add process cards with the HD Native card.

Shan

05-03-2011, 08:15 PM

...If I have a pretty powerful processor in my computer (Intel Core i7-930 2.8Ghz 8M LGA1366) would it be advantageous to use a Native card vs. core/core accel cards?

Yes. After using my HD Native system for almost a solid 8 weeks, I loathe going to a slow clunky TDM system. One couldn't pry it away from me. There's definitely a lot of false myths out there with native. A topic for a whole new thread.

Shane

Filmusic

05-20-2011, 08:11 AM

i'm reading the results for folks who have taken the Native Card solution, all sounds impressive

i'm just trying to get my head around why a Native Card running HD9 is any better then PT 9 on a computer

I understand there are a handful of difs between 9 and HD 9 as far as options go

but this question is being asked for the purpose of attempting to gain an understanding in terms of performance - in the 'brute strenght' category (comparing the number of tracks and plugs performance between the two...as well as general responsiveness of the two systems)

i'm reading reports of folks flying (no doubt a comment of the positive general responsiveness of a native card)...i'd like to know what extra umph comes with a native card ...over a non-card PT 9 solution

any help anyone would care to offer will be greatly welcome

nst7

05-20-2011, 08:47 AM

From what I understand, the Native card handles the I/O of the session, and apparently that's a bigger deal than it sounds in terms of taking load off the computer. Some people have posted that their power increases vs. running the exact same session off firewire or usb. The fact that it's PCI based apparently also increases stability and responsiveness.

Hopefully more users will jump in here.

Filmusic

05-20-2011, 08:55 AM

this is what i'm looking for - as i'm certain others are as well

learning of the 'stuff' that makes a native card different in performance from an older tdm system will be really be helpful as well

filosofem

05-20-2011, 02:26 PM

learning of the 'stuff' that makes a native card different in performance from an older tdm system will be really helpful
Is the difference between HD Native and HD TDM processing power?

HD Native offers the same I/O Hardware as HD TDM. HD Native offers the same Peripheral Support as HD TDM. HD Native does not offer however the same HD TDM I/O. HD Native is limited to 64 I/O. TDM Plug-Ins?

Simplistically, apples verses apples, what does HD TDM DSP Cards offer over HD Native host processing power? Is host processing power reliable? Is it stable? Avid believes so. There would not be a HD Native solution otherwise. Can host processing power guarantee performance?

What about latency? We're not running year 2000 Pentium 4 Processors with 400 MHz Front Side Bus (FSB) speeds anymore. If anybody can detect latency at a Hardware Buffer Size of 32 Samples then perhaps they should be pioneering the final frontier without a spaceship, no?

Can host processing power deliver session performance whilst maintaining a 64 Sample or lower Hardware Buffer Size? Yes.

HD Native is only getting better.

albee1952

05-26-2011, 08:21 PM

I sat thru a nice little demo tonight(thanks to Marshall Graphics and Kurt Howell) and came away with a new desire for HD/Native. From what I understand, the HD/Native card has some processing onboard that handles the mixer and IO, which takes a serious load off the CPU. They also explained that USB and firewire are much slower due to the fact that they move data in packets and are always doing double duty because they are constantly sending everything twice to make sure the data really went. That slows them both down a lot as compared to PCIe. Another cool option(if you have the cash) is that you can add the PCMCIA port to your desktop machine and keep the Native card in the baby Magma chassis, which allows you to grab and run when you want to go portable with your laptop, but still patch it to your studio/desktop system quick and easy, with no change in performance(other than the difference in computer horsepower when going with a laptop. They demo'd a 165 track session with video on a MBP i7 at a 128 buffer(about 65 plugins). Pretty darn impressive:rolleyes: When funds permit, I'll sign up:D

nst7

05-26-2011, 08:47 PM

And sometime this summer, when Sonnet comes out with their PCIe to Thunderbolt chassis, you can use it this way on the new Macbook Pros and new Imacs (and, I assume, the new Mac Pros whenever they come out).

filosofem

05-26-2011, 10:13 PM

They demo'd a 165 track session with video on a MBP i7 at a 128 buffer(about 65 plugins). Pretty darn impressive:rolleyes:
Sampling Rate 48K Dave? And on what hardware I/O? OMNI. And IIRC Mix is a host duty.

p.s. any word on CPTK2 +hardware upgrade path?

digimidi

05-27-2011, 09:21 AM

I sat thru a nice little demo tonight(thanks to Marshall Graphics and Kurt Howell) and came away with a new desire for HD/Native. From what I understand, the HD/Native card has some processing onboard that handles the mixer and IO, which takes a serious load off the CPU. They also explained that USB and firewire are much slower due to the fact that they move data in packets and are always doing double duty because they are constantly sending everything twice to make sure the data really went. That slows them both down a lot as compared to PCIe. Another cool option(if you have the cash0 is that you can add the PCMCIA port to your desktop machine and keep the Native card in the baby Magma chassis, which allows you to grab and run when you want to go portable with your laptop, but still patch it to your studio/desktop system quick and easy, with no change in performance(other than the difference in computer horsepower when going with a laptop. They demo'd a 165 track session with video on a MBP i7 at a 128 buffer(about 65 plugins). Pretty darn impressive:rolleyes: When funds permit, I'll sign up:D

Just to clarify, the HD Native card handles the I/O traffic and the host CPU handles the mixing. Having the card handle the I/O traffic does free up the host to allow you to run at lower buffer settings than USB or FW interfaces.

albee1952

05-27-2011, 11:31 AM

Sampling Rate 48K Dave? And on what hardware I/O? OMNI. And IIRC Mix is a host duty.

p.s. any word on CPTK2 +hardware upgrade path?

HD/Native card in the baby Magma chassis($500), 96K 5.1 session thru the OMNI(stereo with the downmix function enabled on the OMNI, thru a pair of Equator speakers). Plus, they said that a 128 buffer on HD/Native has less latency than 64 on any firewire or USB non-HD system(because of the latency that is inherent to USB and firewire). I heard rumblings of some retail deals(including a grand off for trading in 002 or 003, and $500 for ANY Mbox(yes, even original), but my ebay and internet cruising has also shown some great deals. For instance, an HD/Native package from eBay($2250 give or take) and a used 96IO($700 give or take) and I can be HD/Native with 16 inputs for $3K(8 inputs being equal in quality to my present 003, which the 96IO gets compared to). Use the lightpipe input for my ISA428 with my lunchbox and I should be stylin'(just gotta find 3 grand laying around):rolleyes:. Plus they said that the Euphonix controllers now have working windows drivers if I want controller functions beyond the little Faderport I just bought(which ain't bad at all).

BTW, The Avid rep insists that the HD/Native card is actually handling the mix engine. Not debating, just reporting what I was told.

filosofem

05-27-2011, 02:41 PM

BTW, The Avid rep insists that the HD/Native card is actually handling the mix engine.
Just to clarify, the HD Native card handles the I/O traffic and the host CPU handles the mixing.
Sounds like some miss communication.

filosofem

05-27-2011, 02:45 PM

They demo'd a 165 track session with video on a MBP i7 at a 128 buffer(about 65 plugins).
HD/Native card in the baby Magma chassis($500), 96K 5.1 session thru the OMNI(stereo with the downmix function enabled on the OMNI, thru a pair of Equator speakers).
Those are impressive stats alright even with a MacBook Pro.

Shan

05-27-2011, 05:53 PM

HD/Native card in the baby Magma chassis($500), 96K 5.1 session thru the OMNI(stereo with the downmix function enabled on the OMNI, thru a pair of Equator speakers). Plus, they said that a 128 buffer on HD/Native has less latency than 64 on any firewire or USB non-HD system(because of the latency that is inherent to USB and firewire). I heard rumblings of some retail deals(including a grand off for trading in 002 or 003, and $500 for ANY Mbox(yes, even original), but my ebay and internet cruising has also shown some great deals. For instance, an HD/Native package from eBay($2250 give or take) and a used 96IO($700 give or take) and I can be HD/Native with 16 inputs for $3K(8 inputs being equal in quality to my present 003, which the 96IO gets compared to). Use the lightpipe input for my ISA428 with my lunchbox and I should be stylin'(just gotta find 3 grand laying around):rolleyes:. Plus they said that the Euphonix controllers now have working windows drivers if I want controller functions beyond the little Faderport I just bought(which ain't bad at all).

Just get it and join us. You wont be disappointed. It's lonely over here in this neck of the woods. :D

BTW, The Avid rep insists that the HD/Native card is actually handling the mix engine. Not debating, just reporting what I was told.

Who was the Avid rep? Send him here. ;) :D The mix engine is 64bit and done on the host computer, just to clarify for those reading.

...and there IS a big difference in sound over that old "flagship" product. ;)

Shane

nst7

05-27-2011, 08:46 PM

It seems like the HD Native has been slow to catch on and hard for some people to get their head around.

But it seems that everyone who actually uses one really likes it.

So hopefully it will catch on more and more.

filosofem

05-27-2011, 09:01 PM

It seems like the HD Native has been slow to catch on and hard for some people to get their head around.
Would a statement, that LE users seem to get their heads around the concept of HD Native faster than HD TDM users, be fair? And thus, logically, users of LE systems would be more likely to move on to a HD Native system.

Greg M

05-27-2011, 09:06 PM

I totally agree with Shane. Just get it. You'll love it.

I think some of the confusion over the mixer might be because the manual that comes with the HD Native card has some "mis-statements" about the card and what gets processed. At least the manual that came with mine was a bit off.

Here are a couple of examples from the HD Native user guide:

Audio processing with up to 10 TDM or RTAS
plug-ins per track, depending on your computer’s
capabilities

(Native card won't do TDM plug-ins as far as I know.)

Additionally, the on-board
FPGA provides processing power for mixer configurations
and low latency monitoring with
Pro Tools.

(I'm pretty sure this is referencing the Mixer in the Hardware Setup.)

Greg

Bob Olhsson

05-28-2011, 11:36 AM

I think the biggest market for HD native is probably people who want to upgrade a large HD system from a Mac G5 without needing to replace all of their HD cards. The Omni makes it a more attractive upgrade than TDM from LE but it's still not cheap.

filosofem

05-28-2011, 11:39 PM

I think the biggest market for HD Native is probably people who want to upgrade a large HD system from a Mac G5 without needing to replace all of their HD cards.
Hmmm... when your back is up against the wall, it must be discouraging to put faith in a system that gives no guarantee, Mr Olhsson?

Bob Olhsson

05-29-2011, 07:22 AM

There is a huge installed base of Power PC HD users who Apple has orphaned. I actually suspect this could even be the majority of HD owners based on what my friends and I see in studios. Unlike native users, they've had little incentive to constantly upgrade their computers because it was not going to significantly improve the performance of their system. HD native allows them to buy a more recent computer, run the latest software, in many cases run the equivalent of more DSP cards and at the same time protect their huge investment in HD converters.

A major reason I stopped using a Mac because of Apple's propensity for orphaning us over and over. The classic Mac system was as much as twice as fast as a comparably clocked PC and offered extraordinary protection from malware attacks. In spite of the tendency toward instability, the classic mac was arguably well worth putting up with but it all went away with system 10. All that remains is religion and mythology based on the legitimate advantages the earlier macs had.

The other huge market for HD native I see is sound editing for film. The Omni is a perfect solution to replace the mix and le systems that are typically kludged together with some kind of a mixer in an editing room. In fact I've got a job this summer updating an editing room where I used to work when I lived in California.

Certainly it is also a great upgrade opportunity for us LE and M-Powered users too but there are competing less expensive possibilities.

filosofem

05-29-2011, 09:16 PM

There is a huge installed base of Power PC HD users who Apple has orphaned. I actually suspect this could even be the majority of HD owners based on what my friends and I see in studios. Unlike native users, they've had little incentive to constantly upgrade their computers because it was not going to significantly improve the performance of their system. HD native allows them to buy a more recent computer, run the latest software, in many cases run the equivalent of more DSP cards and at the same time protect their huge investment in HD converters.
Hi Bob and thank you for taking the time to reply to my post even if it was somewhat playing devils advocate. I must say though, you've given awareness to a situation I personally had not given consideration, nor to the glaring obvious potential of HD Native users. So, would you Bob, go so far as to say it's a no-brainer and indeed the concept of HD Native isn't that hard to get one's head around?

Certainly it is also a great upgrade opportunity for us LE and M-Powered users too but there are competing less expensive possibilities.
Ummm... yes, given, one can pick up a PT HD 9 asset for a fraction of the price of HD Native and run a top quality converter, makes little sense given Avid are a hardware company. Incentive's to buy HD Native via desirable upgrade paths should be paramount.

Shan

06-01-2011, 06:04 PM

There is a huge installed base of Power PC HD users who Apple has orphaned. I actually suspect this could even be the majority of HD owners...

Couldn't agree more with this one. We're also mere months away from the next gen Intel CPU's. More host power than one could fathom. :eek:

Shane

KroNEe

06-08-2011, 04:14 AM

I am still a little confused, if I buy PT9 HD with CPTK, and it is sold as used on a Ilok, "This listing/sale is for a used PT 9 HD bundle iLok asset (PT 9 HD, PT 9, PT 8 HD)"
Price is cheap, I am sure many of you know where this is deal is being offered. But I cannot find out if for any reason, and I do not really see one from what I am reading, but just to know, how would one upgrade to TDM? Sounds like there will be a bunch of cards for sale with no usable serial#.

And the things I would not get to use as native, TDM plugs, Heat,little more latency, Am I missing anything? am I missing something that would bite me later being a used software asset? Is this to good to be. It is very confusing to understand Avids chart to me. But if there are no big gotchas here, I could swing the price. Anyone have a opinion, or have purchased the used deal? I am missing something I know it.

Thanks

nst7

06-08-2011, 07:30 AM

If you're talking about the deal from E.J. Wells (and featured on the AIR users blog), that would be the license that allows you to run the equivalent of PT9 and CPTK2 for a fraction of the price.

I don't know how that would work with upgrades in the future, but if you bought that, and then just bought used HD cards from someone, I don't see why that wouldn't work.

You could email E.J. and ask him you specific questions.

KroNEe

06-08-2011, 07:50 AM

I have had several email exchanges with him today, it is a great deal any way you slice it. But to buy a Native card, I would have to buy another copy of PT9 HD. Guess it would sell for $400 maybe. But I am still way outside my budget as far as buying any core card. Really tempted, but I see people dumping there cards and using the serial# to upgrade themselves. I bet this will happen allot. So how can you make sure you are getting a usable serial other then taking someones word? Man I do not know what to do, but any way you slice it it is 2k from buying the CPTK. The native card is way to much. I understand why they have to price it that high, but it is out of range now for me. I could use the HD software with a interface for now, and later upgrade, but he put in a little disclaimer like to the best of my knowledge you should be able to upgrade to 10, or get a core card and register it, but no for sure answer. I have been looking for hours to find something solid on a upgrade, but Avid has wrong info in there user guides. I am really at a loss, it could be a great thing, could be a nightmare.

But E.J. replied to my questions, I think he is selling exactly as advertised. But not much info from Avid to go off.

If you're talking about the deal from E.J. Wells (and featured on the AIR users blog), that would be the license that allows you to run the equivalent of PT9 and CPTK2 for a fraction of the price.

I don't know how that would work with upgrades in the future, but if you bought that, and then just bought used HD cards from someone, I don't see why that wouldn't work.

You could email E.J. and ask him you specific questions.

KroNEe

06-08-2011, 09:31 AM

albee1952

06-08-2011, 01:28 PM

Ok, I bought the iLok from E.J. Wells. Guess there is a bit of unknown on how future upgrades will go. So for now, will be using a LE inerface for a while yet. Everyone for the most part is going native it would seem. It will be a while before I will be able to buy the card, and another copy of PT9 HD. I should be able to sell that right? so I am still looking at several thousand dollars for a card and I need at least 16x16 I/O. So that is going to cost me.

So in the meen time you guys make me feel good with what I am going to be able to do on LE hardware that I do not have now. I think it is going to be a while before I really get to use the good stuff? I should be happy about getting CPTK for free basicly right?
I sure wish I had gone the HD software route instead of buying the CPTK2:rolleyes: I am in much the same boat regarding the move up to HD/Native. I figure, with ebay pricing, I can get on board for about $3K($2.2K for the card and $800 for a 96IO). That with a lightpipe preamp will do 16 inputs at a fair cost:D. I would move up the the HD IO later on:cool:

KroNEe

06-08-2011, 03:19 PM

If you can find a old mix core card, that the serial has not been used to upgrade you can get the native card for $1600. But I think it is only for a couple more weeks. That would be sweet, and as far as I can tell the card comes with the PT 9 HD software, so for me I could sell one. I would be good with a 96IO to start, little at a time. And I thought about the CPTK a while back, I do think they should give you guys that spent all that money a break somehow. I just hope I don't get hung out with the used HD9 with no card.
I can't quiet figure out how they are pulling it off for $650. But even worst case I have CPTK2 for a big discount.

I sure wish I had gone the HD software route instead of buying the CPTK2:rolleyes: I am in much the same boat regarding the move up to HD/Native. I figure, with ebay pricing, I can get on board for about $3K($2.2K for the card and $800 for a 96IO). That with a lightpipe preamp will do 16 inputs at a fair cost:D. I would move up the the HD IO later on:cool:

Raoul23

06-09-2011, 06:46 AM

drumster

06-09-2011, 09:23 AM

I just upgraded from PT 9 LE to 9HD TDM and i couldnt be happier i spent 6 months debating weather to go HD native ot TDM and its been cheaper for me in the long run. Tracking with plugins on is great i dont have to mess with my buffer or anything like i did in le and rtas plugs.

Im very happy :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

I don't think it'll be too long before alot of others who were in your position start doing the same thing. When you compare HD3 PCI to Native at a similar price, it's a no brainer. Congratulations on your new system!

filosofem

06-09-2011, 02:31 PM

Tracking with plugins on is great i dont have to mess with my buffer or anything like i did in le and rtas plugs.
You can track, edit and mix at an untouched hardware playback buffer of 64 samples on Pro Tools HD Native.

Raoul23

06-09-2011, 09:33 PM

You can track, edit and mix at an untouched hardware playback buffer of 64 samples on Pro Tools HD Native.

I couldn't in my le system, though

filosofem

06-09-2011, 10:10 PM

I couldn't in my le system, though
Exactly, it's Pro Tools HD Native.

Raoul23

06-09-2011, 10:24 PM

Exactly, it's Pro Tools HD Native.

I have the best of both worlds now tdm and rtas at half the price of hd native my 3 cards didn't even cost me $900:D:D

albee1952

06-10-2011, 08:41 AM

I have the best of both worlds now tdm and rtas at half the price of hd native my 3 cards didn't even cost me $900:D:D
Not everyone has the good fortune to find that kind of deal:rolleyes:

Raoul23

06-10-2011, 08:46 AM

Not everyone has the good fortune to find that kind of deal:rolleyes:

i know thats why i snapped it up quick to good of a bargain;)

chrisdee

06-10-2011, 10:44 AM

All this talk about Native makes me crazy with temptation.

I have the money for Native+Omni, but not for Native+Omni+MacPro
in case my GA-EX58-UD3R motherboard won't work with Native.

That and the issue with the noisy omni fan is holding me back.

filosofem

06-10-2011, 01:32 PM

I have the money for Native+Omni, but not for Native+Omni+MacPro in case my GA-EX58-UD3R motherboard won't work with Native.
Pro Tools runs on GA-EX58-UD3R, HD Native card runs on PCIe, it is more than likely that Pro Tools HD Native will work for you.

albee1952

06-10-2011, 07:48 PM

Pro Tools runs on GA-EX58-UD3R, HD Native card runs on PCIe, it is more than likely that Pro Tools HD Native will work for you.
Yeah, I was about to ask why chrisdee thought it would not work with that computer. In any case, you do have other IO options to save cash at first. My plan will likely include a used 96IO to start. Many(but not all) 96IO units have a lightpipe input(perfect for my ISA-428 w/digital card) and 8 analog line inputs(perfect for the 8 mic preamps in my Presonus D8. That nets 16 inputs and the 8 line outs on the 96IO which is exactly the count I have with my 003(for about $700). As cool as the Omni is(and as good as it sounds) it is pricey for no more than 8IO at a time(why they couldn't make the lightpipe a full 8 channels for a total 14 inputs is beyond me):rolleyes:

Greg M

06-10-2011, 09:47 PM

Just for the record, my system works with no issues (see my signature). Also, I do not have a noise issue with my Omni.

Obviously, the choice of an I/O box is dependent on your individual needs. For me, I wanted to see how the HD Native performed before adding any additional I/O. I am very impressed with the Omni performance and the converters are just fantastic. But, I/O is limited so I will be adding an HD IO (16x16).

As long as you have a relatively current computer, HD Native should not dissapoint.

Hope this helps,
Greg

Filmusic

06-11-2011, 01:27 AM

looking at the cost and proven ability of an older HD system.....today, compared with anything new.....today

well,

I've gone with a ilok PT HD 8.0 asset ($75) core card ($689) and a 192 digital ($799) and a dell 690 with 2Xdual3.2procs ($350) with 10 gigs of ram ($150) and by way of the 192's legacy port either my adat bridge/24 ($175) that I can swap with my 888/24 ($175) ...should i need to....and I'm searching for a used accel card for $500...(laugh as you will - one accel card just went on ebay for $530 this morning..ha ha $30 way more then I'm prepared to pay - yup I can wait - ha ha)

as what can I say?

I'd rather buy cheap beer then spend excessive coin on teck (been buying both now for 30 years...this year i made a decision...cheap beer over teck)

...although I have seven 1970's strats - which were high teck in their time...so that's got to count for something...ha ha...maybe...now back to the cold cheap beer...

all in (excluding the beer and the strats) for - ta da - $2,913!!!

Before I bought all of the above (with the exeption of the accel card, as i'm still looking) I already had a few nice pre's with lightpipe capability (including aes-ebu) ...so really...I feel great with an almost $3k spend to transition from 3 LE to HD...hell $3k...that got you a little over a M1 in the day...ha ha...love today!!!

the cost to transition could even gets less if i was to sell my 1. Original Mbox 2. My Mbox 2 Pro, and 3. my Digi 003r

but I'll keep them..as they work great as audio interfaces with my avid video suites...everything usually 'CAN' have a purpose....if you try hard enough

So I'm cool for abit...with my ,,,,40(ish) I/O : HD2 system for under $3k..I mean...why wouldn't I be?..but please note I'm following this thread...so

please take that as a challenge and show me where I've screwed up...ha ha...cause I'd love to learn/know

Greg M

06-11-2011, 05:14 AM

Filmusic,

I don't think you have screwed up at all (except for the cheap beer part). You've put together a system that meets your needs and you seem happy with it. Doesn't get any better than that.

But,..... I do think you need to revisit your committment to cheap beer. This is one area where price is not a factor and buying the highest quality, most recently brewed beer enhances your quality of life:-).

Greg

Filmusic

06-11-2011, 12:23 PM

ha ha ...now i must state that i've hidden the complete truth from you a tad -as simply because a beer being cheap does not always make it a poor beer, with consideration to quality

case-in-point

i'm in Shanghai, China where i can get a cold 700mil bottle of Tsingtao (from the island of Tsingtao, settled by the Germans a few hundred years back) for around 40cents Cnd at my local cornerstore...yup, you guessed it correctly that calculates to 10 huge cold beers for $4.00 (God I love China!)

(ha ha...now today $4 is about all what a digi 882 is worth on the open market)

long live cheap (German influenced) beer!

all modern teck...may you eventually R.I.P.....worthlessly...forever...

but,

a cold beer...and a 1970's strat...well...may your combined inspiration transcend time...now back to that cold 'cheap' beer,,,,glug!

carlone

06-14-2011, 07:20 AM

Just to clarify, the HD Native card handles the I/O traffic and the host CPU handles the mixing. Having the card handle the I/O traffic does free up the host to allow you to run at lower buffer settings than USB or FW interfaces.

Just to make sure this point doesn't get overlooked.
DIGIMIDI is correct. Some people seem to think that the mixer runs on the HD native card. It doesn't.

I think the confusion sets in because when you're using Low Latency Mode that's the 1 time that the mixer is handled by the Native card. Most don't bother to use LLM - there's typically no need for it.