RAM memory usage in PT9 / MAC OS [Archive]

Eekay

12-05-2010, 09:17 AM

Hello!

I'm a bit confused here, a 32-bit system will support maximum 4 GB of ram due to address space. To use more memory a 64-bit OS is required (like Mac Osx Snow Leopard).

But since Pro Tools 9 is a 32-bit application, will it be able to use more than 4 GB of RAM? And what happens with the plugins, will they be able to use more than 4 GB of RAM? Or doesn't it matter at all, will Mac Os allocate more than 4 GB RAM regardless of if the application is 32/64 bit?

bonestonne

12-05-2010, 10:06 AM

http://www.kwikpiks.com/files/129/protools.png

I know it's not the greatest screenshot (PT real usage isn't even visible) but that's an idea of RAM usage in Snow Leopard 32 bit.

I have a first gen MacBook pro, that's PT9. My laptop has 2gb of RAM, and I have a Seagate 500gb 5400.6 hard drive inside. Due to coding, the application can only address 3gb max. You could have hundreds of gigs of RAM, but Snow Leopard can't allocate more RAM to an application than it can address.

TOM@METRO

12-05-2010, 10:43 AM

You can run apps such as “Reaper ReWired” or Vienna “Ensemble PRO” in order to effectively access more RAM for plug-ins in A 64-bit system. Even though Pro Tools can only access RAM close to the 4GB limit, the system uses additional RAM so... If you are wondering if there is an advantage to a 64-bit system with Pro Tools and more than 4GB of RAM, the answer is yes.

Keybeeetsss

12-05-2010, 11:00 AM

If you are wondering if there is an advantage to a 64-bit system with Pro Tools and more than 4GB of RAM, the answer is yes.
But, don't take it as PT will use more than 4g; everything else will hav RAM to access over the 4g that PT sees (if u of course hav more than 4)

Hey TOM my bud~deee

L-Dogg

12-05-2010, 11:32 AM

So 'beeetsss, you are saying that if you have 6GB of RAM, that Pro Tools will use it's 4, but while it cannot access the remaining 2GB; the OS and any other apps that are running can?

So it is still beneficial to have more than 4GB, even though PT can only utilize that much?

Also TOM@METRO, you said You can run apps such as “Reaper ReWired” or Vienna “Ensemble PRO” in order to effectively access more RAM for plug-ins in A 64-bit system

So Snow Leopard is 64bit yes? Pro Tools is only 32bit. Reaper comes in both. Are you saying that loading 64 bit Reaper in as a rewire will allow you to run VI's in that Pro Tools session, as 64bit? So the VI's loaded in Reaper, will be able to access the additional installed RAM above 4GB........ within that Pro Tools session that can only access 4GB?

I assume 32bit Reaper also can only access 4GB? I also assume the Vienna app is a 64 bit application?

Sorry for the retarded questions, I am still trying to wrap my head around this. I have tried rewiring Reaper and it did run several VI's with no problems...... but truth be told I do not know which version of Reaper I have in my studio computer.....32bit or 64 bit. I just got the app to try it, I am still running as a demo and hardly ever use it.

This being the case though, I will purchase the 64 bit Reaper if it will be a cost effective solution to getting more VI's in a PT 9 session. As opposed to buying DP or Logic just for sessions with lot's of VI's/sample libraries.

Right now PT seems to choke real early.

I wonder how big of a deal it is for Pro Tools to become 64 bit? Is that a huge amount of rewriting the code for the application? Why don't they do it?

SixChurchStreet

12-05-2010, 11:57 AM

I recently asked a question like this. I think it was on the macrumors forum.

From the responses, what I understood, that even when running OSX in 32bit mode, you can benefit from more than 4gb. My understanding is that any app or OS that is 32bit can only access up to 4gb. But it doesn't have to be the same 4gb. For example if you have 6gb of ram, and the OS is using 3Gb, then PT can use the other three. Neither is passing their 4gb limit, but they don't need to share the same ram either.

- Sent using Tapatalk.

Keybeeetsss

12-05-2010, 11:57 AM

Ldogg, yes it is mucho beneficial to hav more than 4; as far as REAPER or VEPro, it of course has to be the 64bit app as well as the plugs hav to be 64bit; but, even if they aren't, that still means a different 4g or however much is available; So PT uses its 4, even if Rewired is 32 bit, it'll still use up to its own 4g as well.. If its 64bit, then it'll use as much RAM as u hav in ur rig...

edit: if the OS is 32bit, 4g is it period...

Noiselab

12-05-2010, 12:52 PM

OK - let's be clear about this.

We need to break this down into the correct layers and limitations.

A 32-bit OS (kernel) with PAE implemented (OS X and most flavors of Linux) should be able to see and use up to 64GB of RAM.

That doesn't mean that a 32-bit application can address all 64GB. Due to memory addressing architecture limitations at the application level, a 32-bit application can only address 4GB of RAM.

Example: If you have 16GB of total physical RAM installed on a Mac running Snow Leopard in 32-bit mode, Pro Tools CAN take up to 4GB (based on it's 32-bit application architecture) and you have 12GB left over for the OS and any other applications.

On the example above, let's say your running Pro Tools and Rewire to extend that limit. Pro tools can allocate 4GB total, and Rewire (to another 32-bit app) can also allocate 4GB total to the second app leaving 8GB for the OS and any other applications. There are many people (including myself) who run this way at times, and it tends to work well until you run out of CPU.

If you're running Snow Leopard in 64-bit mode (48-bit RAM buss/MMU), the OS can see up to 256TB (yes, TB!) of physical RAM; HOWEVER, a 32-bit app running on this 64-bit OS configuration CAN STILL ONLY ADDRESS 4GB due to its 32-bit application memory management limitation. The OS can still see 255TB+ of RAM to use for itself and other apps if you actually had 256TB of RAM installed.

What about 64-bit plug-ins? My understanding is that in almost all cases, a plug-in is treated like an extension of the application and is limited to the memory address limitations of the app. I really doubt if a 32-bit app can correctly use a 64-bit plug-in anyway, but if it could, it would still be limited to the app's 32-bit addressing limitations.

We could get into a discussion about running 64-bit Reaper under 64-bit Snow Leopard - Rewired to 32-bit Pro-tools (running under 32-bit OS emulation under 64-bit SL), but I haven't heard of anyone trying this. I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to whether it would work, and I would never advocate a pro facility even thinking of running this way. My gut says, "Danger! Danger, Will Robinson!" Anyone tried this?

Hope this helps,

NL

thierryd

12-05-2010, 02:01 PM

I recently ran into PT memory limitations on a feature film I was mixing and reported here:
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?p=1708808#post1708808

Although Avid Tech Support didn't respond to that thread, I also asked the same question via my dealer and was in communication with somebody (unknown to me) at Avid. Basically what was said is that the current limitation of ProTools is 2.6GB of RAM memory use (exactly the amount where I ran into trouble). Beyond that things become unstable, so the only solution is to run smaller sessions or avoid using memory intensive tasks such as the Workspace.

Greetings,

Thierry

Hello!

I'm a bit confused here, a 32-bit system will support maximum 4 GB of ram due to address space. To use more memory a 64-bit OS is required (like Mac Osx Snow Leopard).

But since Pro Tools 9 is a 32-bit application, will it be able to use more than 4 GB of RAM? And what happens with the plugins, will they be able to use more than 4 GB of RAM? Or doesn't it matter at all, will Mac Os allocate more than 4 GB RAM regardless of if the application is 32/64 bit?

Eekay

12-06-2010, 01:28 AM

Thank you guys for excellent responses!

This raises some more questions though, how is memory allocated for plugins? Noiselab wrote:

What about 64-bit plug-ins? My understanding is that in almost all cases, a plug-in is treated like an extension of the application and is limited to the memory address limitations of the app. I really doubt if a 32-bit app can correctly use a 64-bit plug-in anyway, but if it could, it would still be limited to the app's 32-bit addressing limitations.

Is this different for different plugins maybe? Lets say I load a Waves plugin, will it use memory of the ProTools allocated memory or will it allocate memory directly from the OS. And what about samplers like Kontakt?

The reason I ask is that large sample libraries are quite RAM heavy, it would be a severe problem if 2.6GB is the limit for all plugins to share together with ProTools.

Can someone verify how memory allocation works for plugins?

tokolosh

12-06-2010, 07:29 AM

I also raised these questions before. However I have not received a concrete answer from Digi

Noiselab

12-06-2010, 07:36 AM

If you fire up Kontakt as a straight RTAS plug-in, then yes, it will consume memory from the PT allocation.

NL

getz76

12-06-2010, 07:43 AM

Exactly. It's pretty simple, actually...

Any plug-in that is a straight RTAS plug-in (not rewire) is using the RTAS engine within Pro Tools. These plug-ins will use the memory addressable by Pro Tools.

Pro Tools can access 4gB of memory as a 32-bit application. Period. Full stop.

Mac OS X can address more than 4gB of memory since 10.4.x since it uses 64-bit memory extensions. So even the 32-bit kernel used in iterations of Snow Leopard can address up to 64gB of memory.

It has been addressed multiple times in this thread and other threads. So, what's the question?

tokolosh

12-06-2010, 07:59 AM

thanks for clarifying that. What about processors and hyper threading is there a limit to that?

Eekay

12-06-2010, 10:01 AM

Thank you all for your time and effort explaining this! I got the answer i needed.

L-Dogg

12-06-2010, 09:37 PM

Not I though eekay. Hope you don't mind.

Absolutely no disrespect towards getz76 and others who say 4GB as this is what I have heard.

I find it very curious though that Pro Tools chokes so early on moderate VI counts though, and when other people come on who now say they were told by someone at Avid it's 2.6GB, I get even more curious. Add to that the fact that nobody gets a straight answer from Avid. I mean I have seen a fair amount of discussions where this has been talked about and do not ever recall one of the good Avid folks just saying what the number is, to put the issue to bed for once and for all.

That's what I would like. An answer straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

Personally I think it is the 4GB spec.

So what is it Avid? Is it 4Gb or 2.6 GB or some other value? It's a pretty innocuous question.

getz76

12-06-2010, 10:24 PM

Absolutely no disrespect towards getz76 and others who say 4GB as this is what I have heard.

None taken. No worries.

L-Dogg

12-07-2010, 10:51 AM

Thanks getz76. I am sure it is 4GB.....and must admit, I know very little about the in's and out's of all of this.

I also see Logic users talk about VI's slowing down their system etc.... I do not think this problem is unique to PT. It must be a beeyotch everyone being on the same page and keeping up with each other, everything being compatible with everything else........and on top of that the operating systems as well.

To my way of thinking though, honesty and being open is the best way. Just tell me the truth about what something is capable of and let me then make informed decisions about what I want to do about that.

I like the Reaper business model. I really do. I don't use it more than experimenting with using it as a rewire client to host VI's but haven't got far. I might buy it. After reading the interview with the young guys who started Reaper, in Tape Op, and seeing what folks say over at the boards there, I am just impressed with them and what they are doing; even if I never end up being a Reaper user.

They discuss problems openly and work fast on creating fixes. They seem willing to address anything from what I see.

I mean I don't care what the issues are. Just tell me, if it is 2, 3, 4..... 200 GB whatever.....that Pro Tools can use. All I want to know is what sort of VI and sample library counts I can expect.

If I need to get VEP or use Reaper to run 3rd party VI's then so be it. I want a solution, I don't care about the fine details really and I still want to stay with PT. I need another learning curve like I need a hole in the head.

getz76

12-07-2010, 11:07 AM

I would not worry about the actual number. Just worry about the performance. When the RTAS engine goes to 64-bit, it will be a moot point. Logic is not without its problems; just check out the various forums.

If you like Pro Tools and need more memory access for VIs, go for Reaper. For most users, Reaper is $40. The money well spent if you need it and you have VST equivalents.

I have a very good friend who is now using Reason/Record as his main DAW. This is a guy who owns a commercial studio and does plenty of composition work for corporate clients. What is interesting is he just bought Reaper as well, but not for the standard rewire usage. He has a ton of hardware synths, and Reason/Record does not support any MIDI output (by design). Instead, he is using rewire with Reaper to run his hardware synths. Nifty solution. Not bad considering the retail price tag on the two pieces of software total under $500.

Reaper definitely has a niche right now and they are taking advantage of the fact that they do not have to worry about supporting any real legacy users. That is half the battle of commercial software...

Carl Lie

12-07-2010, 11:28 AM

I don't know about Reaper but VE pro solves this for me. Beyond the access to additional RAM, it runs the plugs outside of RTAS.

I have 6 virtual cores dedicated to PT and two to VEPro and it's pretty damn smooth. VEPro comes with both 64 bit and 32 bit instances. If you were running all Kontakt libraries then you could open it in 64 bit and use all the RAM available outside of ProTools and then bring them in on an AUX track.

Since it's a virtual server you could buy another machine if you run out of power and bring it in over your LAN. I've heard however that it's not as reliable in that situation.

In my basic setup I have VEPro running SD2, Scarbee bass and Ivory Grand II and RTAS isn't hit at all.

Carl

L-Dogg

12-07-2010, 07:34 PM

I will need to get a new Mac soon, 8 core maybe. Maybe then I would keep the MacPro Quad as a slave.

What I do not understand is the "virtual cores"? I see you have a 6 core yet run 8 virtual cores. I gotta wrap my head around that.

I think it is amazing (if I have this right?) that Pro Tools can be a 32-bit application, yet Reaper or VE Pro which are 64-bit, can run as 64-bit apps making full use of that feature....within that 32-bit Pro Tools session.

Thanks all.

[email protected]

12-07-2010, 10:03 PM

I have found this thread most interesting... Here I am with my Nehalem dual processor Mac and 24 gigs of ram... and Protools can only access 4 gigs? I wish I would have known this before I ran out and amped up my Mac.....

I can say that I recently ran a symphonic piece with 21 stereo Miroslav plugins, 2 Stylus RMX tracks, and about 20 audio tracks along with numerous reverb sends and multiple busses (complete production toolkit) on Protools 8.04 without a hitch. This has sold me on what Protools abilities in LE. The most demanding plugins I see that stress the CPU are: Eleven (can usually run about 1 of them in a song) and Amplitube (where I can run about 5 or 6 them).

I am far from an expert on Protools, but I believe that, with proper organization of record ing tracks ( whicj i am far from doing aforementioned), that gigs of ram will do for me for the moment....

-SteveB.

getz76

12-07-2010, 11:24 PM

What I do not understand is the "virtual cores"? I see you have a 6 core yet run 8 virtual cores. I gotta wrap my head around that.

Mac Pros support hyper-threading, so the RTAS engine will see the hyperthreaded cores (meaning if you have 8 physical cores, RTAS will see it as 16 cores).

I think it is amazing (if I have this right?) that Pro Tools can be a 32-bit application, yet Reaper or VE Pro which are 64-bit, can run as 64-bit apps making full use of that feature....within that 32-bit Pro Tools session.

Reaper does not run within Pro Tools. It runs as a separate application and uses Rewire to get audio back in to Pro Tools. Learn about Rewire here... (http://www.propellerheads.se/substance/rewirehelp/index.cfm?fuseaction=get_article&article=protools0)

eledu

12-08-2010, 08:34 AM

I recently ran into PT memory limitations on a feature film I was mixing and reported here:
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?p=1708808#post1708808

Although Avid Tech Support didn't respond to that thread, I also asked the same question via my dealer and was in communication with somebody (unknown to me) at Avid. Basically what was said is that the current limitation of ProTools is 2.6GB of RAM memory use (exactly the amount where I ran into trouble). Beyond that things become unstable, so the only solution is to run smaller sessions or avoid using memory intensive tasks such as the Workspace.

Strange. I always knew that Protools8 under windows had that 2.6Gb limitation (running in a 3Gb RAM, or more, computer) and that it was more due to a Windows limitation. But i really don't think it's OSX case.
Can anyone comfirm?
TNX!

pasanta

12-08-2010, 10:48 AM

If you fire up Kontakt as a straight RTAS plug-in, then yes, it will consume memory from the PT allocation.

NL

http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=282533

Marsdy

12-08-2010, 11:22 AM

Strange. I always knew that Protools8 under windows had that 2.6Gb limitation (running in a 3Gb RAM, or more, computer) and that it was more due to a Windows limitation. But i really don't think it's OSX case.
Can anyone comfirm?
TNX!

It has pretty much the same limit in OSX.

4GB may be the theoretical limit for a 32 bit app but I've always found 2.5 GB is the real world limit as reported by Activity Monitor. It's not just Pro Tools. I see the exact same thing in Logic when it's running in 32 bit mode. As soon as you get close to 2.5GB, stability goes out the window. This is 2.5 GB of real AND virtual memory BTW.

If you keep an eye on memory using Activity Monitor and keep Pro Tools' (or 32 bit Logic's) memory usage below 2.5 GB then you get MUCH better stability or just stability period. In some systems (including mine,) it's even less than 2.5 GB. If you need more than 2.5GB for VIs then host VIs outside of PT or use a 64 bit DAW.

eledu

12-09-2010, 09:40 AM

If you need more than 2.5GB for VIs then host VIs outside of PT or use a 64 bit DAW.

That's what kontakt's Memory Server is for?
TNX!

Marsdy

12-09-2010, 12:00 PM

That's what kontakt's Memory Server is for?
TNX!

Exactly. All the VIs that use some form of memory server are a massive help breaking the 32 bit limit but it's surprisingly easy to pass 2.5GB even with these. And then the stability goes...

firebass305

12-09-2010, 05:41 PM

I know Digi Tech Support always gets terse whenever this is asked, but how much hell do we have to raise as professional users to get Digi to get a move on with a 64 bit version of Pro Tools that utilizes OSX's Grand Central? I know they love how capable their internal processor scaling is, but I'm sure the OS would do a better job. It's not ok that 3 instances of Superior Drummer causes PT to tank on me on my 6-core 8 GB of RAM-having brand new Mac Pro. . .

The power of the computer is no longer the issue - we have now reached the limits of the software.

firebass305

12-09-2010, 05:42 PM

And I am aware that the functions of Grand Central and multil-core utilization have nothing to do with 32 bit RAM limitations - just thought I'd throw that in there for good measure. . . we NEED to be able to address more RAM within the software. . . I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir though...

Keybeeetsss

12-09-2010, 07:32 PM

firebass305

12-10-2010, 09:45 AM

Thanks for your smart ***** comment.

No one expects a 64-bit pro tools to magically appear out of nowhere. Am I not allowed to vent a frustration without a smartass like you looking to assert what you think is your superior knowledge? Just because I haven't posted much on here (mostly because I rarely have issues with PT that I can't figure out on my own, and I'm busy working and not trolling around forums) doesn't mean I'm new to PT. I am very aware of the difficulties associated with moving an established platform over to a whole different realm of functionality.

Considering, however, that Snow Leopard and native 64-bit capabilities have been available for around a year and a half now with developer tools available far longer than that, I'd say we're well beyond the point of expecting a 64-bit version of a crucial piece of software to pop out of nowhere, wouldn't you say? I'm sure there's some perfectly good reason why it is taking a long time, but then again there could be no good reason at all other than the fact that Avid has a history of sitting on their laurels and making users wait for the most basic of features. It would be nice to know if there's at least an update in the works - but I know Avid isn't down with setting expectations for updates.

I'd hope you're not ignorant enough to believe that the length of time someone has been a part of a discussion community has anything to do with their actual experience with the software.

Keybeeetsss

12-10-2010, 01:04 PM

ur 2nd post here is still relevant to my original post when u get done...

firebass305

12-10-2010, 01:22 PM

If you'd cared to read on to my next few posts - if I'd never had to adjust the waveform outline setting in the past, why would I think there would be a setting to adjust it? The waveforms looked one way, and then I upgraded and they didn't look the way I was used to seeing them in the past. If you had noticed, many other people had this same confusion - so I wasn't the only one that wasn't aware of a waveform outline setting.

You're going to gauge my experience with PT based on a waveform setting?

Your ridiculous shorthand and poor use of the English language in all of your posts, by your logic, should lead me to believe that you're just not an intelligent person. But I wouldn't be that quick to judge your intelligence based on your shortcomings in one facet of academia. I'm sure you're an intelligent and capable individual - no one knows everything.

Carl Lie

12-10-2010, 07:04 PM

firebass305

12-10-2010, 07:46 PM

I've seen that suggestion come up a few times in my searching for solutions - I don't know much about it. Time to do some research...

DigiTechSupt

12-11-2010, 10:49 AM

Considering, however, that Snow Leopard and native 64-bit capabilities have been available for around a year and a half now with developer tools available far longer than that, I'd say we're well beyond the point of expecting a 64-bit version of a crucial piece of software to pop out of nowhere, wouldn't you say? I'm sure there's some perfectly good reason why it is taking a long time, but then again there could be no good reason at all other than the fact that Avid has a history of sitting on their laurels and making users wait for the most basic of features. It would be nice to know if there's at least an update in the works - but I know Avid isn't down with setting expectations for updates.

To that point I'd like to say this - Pro Tools is 20+ years old, is more complex than any other software and has a completely different type of audio engine.

2 years - even 3 - may seem reasonable from someone unfamiliar with the actual code. I thought the same thing until I got the inside scoop from engineering on this - it's no small task and far, far more complex than you may imagine.

Yes, other manufacturers have already done it, to a degree - but take a look at how many plug-in companies don't have 64 bit versions yet, and they're just plug-ins. Most other companies are also only dealing with one platform - Mac or PC, which cuts dev time down considerably. No other company has the huge offering of hardware, controllers, etc. - or 3rd party integration - that we do.

Again, not an excuse, just an explanation. It's something we're working on as quickly as possible.

Keybeeetsss

12-11-2010, 12:15 PM

DTS its probably safe to say there's no point in trying to explain to som.. the ones that get it, already kno it...

Sent from EPIC 4G using Tapatalk On'eim...

Bob Olhsson

12-11-2010, 12:55 PM

At least with a 64 bit OS Pro Tools doesn't need to share its 4 gigs of memory with everything else. That opens up a gig or so that Pro Tools couldn't use in a 32 bit OS.

This 64 bit memory addressing capability shouldn't be confused with 64 bit float DSP. A 32 bit app can and many do use up to 80 bit DSP.

firebass305

12-11-2010, 04:58 PM

DTS its probably safe to say there's no point in trying to explain to som.. the ones that get it, already kno it...

8,000 posts on this forum and you target me for venting about RAM usage frustrations, then call me out for asking a question about waveform outlines. You're obviously a valuable contributor to discussions - nothing like being condescending toward people asking questions. That's a great attitude you have - must be nice to know everything.

firebass305

12-11-2010, 05:01 PM

To that point I'd like to say this - Pro Tools is 20+ years old, is more complex than any other software and has a completely different type of audio engine.

Thanks for taking the time, DTS. It is much appreciated.

smpkeys

12-22-2010, 09:33 PM

smpkeys

12-28-2010, 07:41 PM

anyone?

Shifted Music

01-20-2011, 06:20 AM

I have been in 64 bit mode...

things are stable for me although I removed a few plug ins.

Dynamic Spectrum Mapper, Predator, Predator FX, The Glue.

Not sure if the stability is related but certainly things have been smooth so far without those in.

Darryl Ramm

01-20-2011, 08:50 AM

Yes, another thanks to DTS !

So, after going through this and other threads, I still have this question - should I set OS X to start with the 32 or 64 bit kernel? I have 6 gb of RAM. It seems from what I've read that Pro Tools and my OS will address both either way (4 gb to PT, 2 to OS). Am I understanding that correctly?

Other users - do you boot in 32 or 64 mode?

Personally for quite a while longer I would boot a 32 bit kernel on production systems unless I needed more than 32 GB of total physical memory or unless there was a specific bug that was fixed by the 64 bit kernel. Ironically the overhead of a 64 bit kernel's larger data structures might even decrease total usable memory on some systems (but most users would never be able to tell).

As has been mentioned on other threads recently the addressable memory possible from 32 and 64 bit kernels is a bit more complex than might first seem. You do *not* need a 64 bit kernel just to support >4GB total physical memory. Intel's PAE hardware support in these processors allows up to 64 GB physical memory with 32 bit kernels (although on the Mac for technical reasons this is limited to 32GB). PAE does not change the 32 bit per-process memory address limit. With OS X you do need a 64 bit kernel if you want to use more than 32GB of memory. Recent OS X releases on a Mac Pro (not MacBook Pro) will default to 64 bit others are 32 bit.

The cynic in me expects Apple is doing this first on their highest end products more to add code coverage (ie testing) in field use than most uses actually need the 64 bit kernels. Well that is what I would do if at Apple.

Search for my other posts on this in recent threads and a useful related link I posted recently is http://macperformanceguide.com/SnowLeopard-64bit.html

Darryl