Can't mirror on a master track?

[SpinningDisk]

Hi all,
I can mirror to my S/PDIF on audio tracks but can't on my master track. I want to send it to my recording deck.Do I have to output to a aux track and then mirror? Is that just the way it is or am I missing something.
Thanks to whomever. Hope all is well.

John

Intel IMac 2.2 ghz 4 gig ram, 001,003, Alesis Masterlink, Motif ES 8, T.C. Electronics, Byerdynamic, lexicon, DBX

[daeron80]

Yep, Master tracks are specific to one bus or pair of busses. That's because they don't "send" anything (note lack of sends) - they only process audio that has been sent to a bus/pair, and all processing is post-fader.

You can mirror each track to SPDIF or send them all to an Aux and mirror that.

[SpinningDisk]

Thanks daeron80,
I appreciate the quick reply. I'll try those two options. Is there any way I can click once to send them all to the S/PDIF or the aux track?
Hope all is well.

John

[daeron80]

Sure. Select the tracks you want to change, and press Option+Shift while changing one of them. I think that's right. I work on both platforms and get those mixed up sometimes. It's in the keyboard shortcuts pdf, too. Along with lots of other fun stuff.

[Brent_Sydney]

One of the other key differences with Master tracks, apart from only controlling a physical/soft output, is that all plugin effects on them are consequently post fader. Keep that in mind if you ever ride the gain on your master fader to effect your overall mix, it will consequently effect the level pre any effects, such as master buss compression which may alter the sound of your mix significantly.
Its a good idea IMHO to insert an aux pre master fader if you want to do main buss compression/mastering. I have that array set up in all my templates.

[SpinningDisk]

Hi Brent,
Thanks for bringing that up about the post fader Brent. Could you explain more about the aux pre master? I have something with an aux master fader,I think, I use it to send to my Masterlink and an adat. Not sure I understand the pre master fader stuff. I know one is before and one is after. Then I must be effecting my master track when fading out a song. Hmmmm.
Thank you. Hope all is well.

John

[djjazzy41]

Hi Brent,
Thanks for bringing that up about the post fader Brent. Could you explain more about the aux pre master? I have something with an aux master fader,I think, I use it to send to my Masterlink and an adat. Not sure I understand the pre master fader stuff. I know one is before and one is after. Then I must be effecting my master track when fading out a song. Hmmmm.
Thank you. Hope all is well.

John

John--
The easiest way to do this (at least the way I always do) is just to create a stereo aux track (do not even create a master fader in the first place). Then set all of your individual track outputs (or groups, in the case of live miked drum mixes) to, say Bus 31-32 (whichever one of your buses is not being used; I prefer to use the last one). On the aux track you have just created, set the input to Bus 31-32 (the same as you have set all of your individual track outputs to). Then on that same aux track, set the output to interface 1-2 (or whatever your normal main outputs are). Now you have, in effect, routed every track to a single bus that is feeding an aux track that you can now use as a master fader. Since you used an aux track instead of a regular master fader, all of your inserts are now pre-fader, just like you want them, and the plug-ins you use on this aux track (now your master fader) are no longer affected by the movement of the fader. Hope this helps! :-)

[daeron80]

But if you're dithering down to 16-bit, don't put the dither plug-in on that "master" aux track. It needs to stay at nominal level to do its job. Dither should always go on a master fader (and be the last plug-in on it) unless the audio/aux track its on stays at 0 dB FS the whole time.

[SpinningDisk]

To All,
Thank you, thank you. I'm beginning to understand it more. I knew something wasn't right. So, I am doing it right. Just add dither to the master fader when bouncing to disk not the aux fader?
Hope all is well.

John

[SpinningDisk]

Hi All again,
Now I am sort of confused now on what I really need the master fader if all I need it for is too check my levels. I set it up like you recommended djjazzy41 and I like it. So all I have to do is pull down the aux fader to fade out? Would I still be sending my master fader out to 1 & 2? Can I still use an aux track off the new aux track to send to my Masterlink and to my Adat? I want to have the best route for my final mix down. I just realized a couple days ago on how to be able to mirror. I just want to know when I am sending to my Adat and the Masterlink I'm still getting what I am hearing through my speakers. Does that make sense? Right now I'm bussing everything to the aux track and outputting it too my adat and masterlink. I've changed that to djjazzy41 way through the outputs to the aux track. From there I would buss to another aux track and output to my adat and Masterlink? It's not like I don't have it working, I would just like more control over my plugins and my final mix.
Thanks all for your help and Happy Mothers day.
Hope all is well.

John

[daeron80]

Would I still be sending my master fader out to 1 & 2?
Actually, a master fader doesn't send anything. That's what makes it a "master." :-) In terms of level, think of it like a valve on a water supply. It doesn't change where the water goes, it only controls how much gets through.

Can I still use an aux track off the new aux track to send to my Masterlink and to my Adat?
If you need to send different levels to different units for some reason, it might make more sense to set up multiple Auxes with the same inputs and different outputs. If all units are to receive copies of the same signal, that's where you use mirrored outputs. BTW, both units are set to the same bit depth as session output? Are you mixing down to 24-bit or 16?

I just want to know when I am sending to my Adat and the Masterlink I'm still getting what I am hearing through my speakers.
The usual way to do that is to monitor the output of the mixdown deck. E.g., if the Masterlink is your primary mixdown deck, monitor its main outs during mixdown.

Right now I'm bussing everything to the aux track and outputting it too my adat and masterlink. I've changed that to djjazzy41 way through the outputs to the aux track. From there I would buss to another aux track and output to my adat and Masterlink?
:confused: Sorry - it should be this simple:
1. Each track that is going straight to final mix is set to one Output: bus pair 31-32.
2. A stereo Aux track has Input set to bus pair 31-32.
3. That Aux track has Outputs set to S/PDIF and ADAT only. Nothing need be coming out of your 003 Main Outs, or if it is, you shouldn't be listening to it during mixdown.

It's not like I don't have it working, I would just like more control over my plugins and my final mix.
:confused: Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but in what way is your control over plug-ins being affected?

[SpinningDisk]

Hi daeron80,
They all make sense. Now, the question about the plug Ins. I think to much. People say I'm a good songwriter/frontman, but they always wonder why I can't finish anything. I think to much. Let me explain. Instead of just writing a song or just singing...oh no, I have to produce, write, sing, play drums, keys, backing vocals, guitar etc.. I think you get my drift. Back to my point about plugins. I'm thinking about cpu power, sound, plug um leave um, less faders, how many songs etc.. Which song will come first? I know daeron80, I've got to stay on track, but if you want it done right. I guess sometimes you got to do it yourself. Bad habit, but it's always worked for me. With the setup I got, I'm just trying to get the most out of my work and knowing that when I move faders that my plug Ins are not being changed do to an increase in db. I want to get back to writing songs again. I knew when I saw the first daw that I was in trouble. Its like a drug. I spend more time tweaking and tweaking instead of honing my skills ( voice, guitar and songwriting).
Now, if I'm set up this way, where does my dither go? If I can't put it on my master aux and I can't mirror my master fader and if I fade out than my plug Ins will be effected if I use the master fader. I think I know where your coming from daeron80. It just takes some time to calculate. Maybe i'm just making it all to complcated.
Thanks for your time. Hope all is well.

John

[daeron80]

I sympathize completely. I'm also addicted to the one-man-record method.

With the setup I got, I'm just trying to get the most out of my work and knowing that when I move faders that my plug Ins are not being changed do to an increase in db.
Hmm. Well, the sound going into plugins on individual audio tracks doesn't change when faders move. Those faders are post-insert. Inserts are always pre-fader on audio and aux tracks. Sends can be pre or post.

When you send audio post-fader to an aux track with plugins on it, which is the usual way for putting reverb on things, then obviously the sent level will change with fader moves. But that's not a problem, it's a method developed to insure that relative fx levels stay consistent. Not sure what kind of problem you're concerned about here.

Now, if I'm set up this way, where does my dither go?
It should always be the very last operation prior to the point where the bit depth is being reduced. The PT LE mix engine outputs at 24-bit, so when mixing down to 24-bit, dither should not be used. When mixing down to 16-bit, it is necessary, and usually goes on a master fader. Dither has to stay at its nominal level in order to do its job, and since master inserts are post-fader, that's the ideal place to put a dither plug-in.

If dither is on an audio or aux track, as you fade out, you're fading the dither, too, which defeats the whole purpose. The only time you can safely put dither on a non-master fader is when that fader will sit at absolutely 0 dB FS the whole time, and when that fader's output is going to a 16-bit file or a recording device set to capture at 16-bit resolution.

[SpinningDisk]

Hi daeron80,
I got you. So, what you are saying is, if there is any fade out on an audio track, master track or aux track, I can't use a dither (plugins)? So what's a man supposed to do? I take it, I should make another aux track. Fade on that one from the signal bussed over from? I'm sooooo confused. I really do appreciate your understanding.
Thanks again.

John

[djjazzy41]

Hi All again,
Now I am sort of confused now on what I really need the master fader if all I need it for is too check my levels. I set it up like you recommended djjazzy41 and I like it. So all I have to do is pull down the aux fader to fade out? Would I still be sending my master fader out to 1 & 2? Can I still use an aux track off the new aux track to send to my Masterlink and to my Adat? I want to have the best route for my final mix down. I just realized a couple days ago on how to be able to mirror. I just want to know when I am sending to my Adat and the Masterlink I'm still getting what I am hearing through my speakers. Does that make sense? Right now I'm bussing everything to the aux track and outputting it too my adat and masterlink. I've changed that to djjazzy41 way through the outputs to the aux track. From there I would buss to another aux track and output to my adat and Masterlink? It's not like I don't have it working, I would just like more control over my plugins and my final mix.
Thanks all for your help and Happy Mothers day.
Hope all is well.

John

John--
I apologize for not replying sooner; I haven't been on the DUC in about a week :( You are correct in how you have set yourself up to go out to the Masterlink (at least I think you are based upon what you have written). Just in case, I thought I would let you know what I normally do. I also want to add the disclaimer that I normally do just rough mixes and do not add dither, so please follow the advice of the other posters regarding the addition of dither and its ideal placement in your scenario if you use it.

As I stated in my earlier post, I create an Aux track that I use as my master fader for the reasons stated in the earlier post. I set its output to 1-2 (just like a master fader would be). Now, say I want to burn a real-time copy of my rough mix on my outboard CD burner (I do this all the time). I simply create another stereo Aux track (right next to the one I have set up as my master fader). I then just use the send from the master fader aux and send it to, say, bus 11-12 (make sure that you set the send to pre-fader). Then on the new aux track I have just created, I set the input for that aux track to bus 11-12. Now on this same new aux track, I set the output (in my case) to S/PDIF out. I connect the S/PDIF output on the back of my 003 Rack to the S/PDIF input on the back of my CD burner. Now I have my main mix still going out to my monitors (through the Aux "Master" fader output 1-2), and also going out digitally via S/PDIF to my CD burner (in your case, Masterlink). Now you have fader control over the main mix going out to your monitors (your original aux master fader), and since you sent that signal to your new aux track pre-fader, you also have fader control over what is going to your outboard gear via the fader on the new aux track. It is simple as that!

I think you also asked if all you had to do in order to fade out was pull down the fader on your aux track, and the answer is yes. Again, it's that simple. Hope some of this helped you, and I'm glad you asked. Most of this stuff I learned either by trial and error or by asking pros where I buy most of my gear. Any time I can help somebody with the same questions I had at one time, I am glad to chime in! :-)

D.J.

[daeron80]

if there is any fade out on an audio track, master track or aux track, I can't use a dither (plugins)?

On a Master Fader track, yes, sometimes. The others, no. The individual tracks in a mix are not an appropriate place to put a dither plug-in. In 24-bit sessions in PT LE, the dither RTAS plug-in's only function is to help bit reduction do less damage. The only place bit reduction is going to occur is at an output (hardware or disc). When you're mixing, the individual tracks feeding the mix bus should never have dither plug-ins on them.

The Master Fader track of an output bus may have a dither plug-in on it if you need it. If the output is receiving at 24-bit or more, no dither. If it's receiving at less than 24-bit, it does need dither because you're taking a 24-bit output and capturing only part of each word. An example would be if you're mixing to Masterlink, and it's set to receive at 16-bit resolution, then you would place 16-bit dither on the Master Fader assigned to the stereo output to Masterlink - and only there. If the Masterlink were set to receive in 24-bit resolution, you would use no dither.

You understand that a Master Fader is a special kind of track in Pro Tools, right? Make a new track, select Stereo - Master Fader from the list, and set the Output to whatever your stereo output bus is (probably Analog 1-2). Its Inserts are post-fader, so it's safe to put a dither plug-in there when doing gain changes like fade outs with it. That's the only kind of track where the level of the fader doesn't affect the level of the dither plug-in. Therefore, it's usually the only place a dither plug-in should be inserted in a multi-track mix.

It's possible to have Master Faders on other busses in a mix, too, like an fx send bus or a subgroup mix bus. Those should never have dither. Only outputs need it, and only then if the target word length is less than 24-bit.

There may be times when you're bouncing a simple stereo track to disc, or sending it out to a Masterlink, at 16-bit. That would be when any mixing has already taken place. Maybe you've done some edits on your 24-bit mix, like maybe you decided to lose a repeated chorus, so you bring in your mixed 24-bit stereo track and edit it. You want to output that edit. So now no mixing is being done, just a single stereo Audio Track, no gain changes, going to disc or Masterlink. Under that circumstance you could put a dither plug-in directly on the Audio Track instead of setting up a Master Fader for it. If you decided you needed to bring the level up or down a little, though, you would need to put the dither on a Master Fader instead, so you're not changing the level of the dither.

Or say you're doing a mix, and the outputs to the stereo mix are going to an internal bus, like 31-23, and you have an Aux track receiving that bus pair. If that Aux track volume is 0.0 and never changes, you could put a dither plug-in on the end of its chain for output to 16-bit Masterlink or hard disc. But if you decided to change the Aux track's gain at all, you'd need to move the dither to a Master Fader on the output bus.

[daeron80]

D.J., The setup you described works fine, but you can actually ditch the Send. Simply set the second Aux's Input the same as the first one. You can have as many Auxes as you want receiving the same input(s).

When going to an audio CD burner, you do need dither. That's a 16-bit medium. Simply add a stereo Master Fader on output S/PDIF L-R, and and a dither plug-in to the bottom insert. You will notice an improvement in detail and imaging.

And BTW, it might be best not to call Aux tracks "master faders" - kind of confusing, since PT uses that term for a special kind of track.

[djjazzy41]

D.J., The setup you described works fine, but you can actually ditch the Send. Simply set the second Aux's Input the same as the first one. You can have as many Auxes as you want receiving the same input(s).

When going to an audio CD burner, you do need dither. That's a 16-bit medium. Simply add a stereo Master Fader on output S/PDIF L-R, and and a dither plug-in to the bottom insert. You will notice an improvement in detail and imaging.

And BTW, it might be best not to call Aux tracks "master faders" - kind of confusing, since PT uses that term for a special kind of track.


Thanks for the additional input; as I said, I have never used dither and up until the time I read your post, and did not know that I needed it, so thanks again! The reason I use a send from the Aux track I am using to act as a Master is because I frequently have some type of mastering plug on that track to shine it up a bit before burning the rough mix. If I don't use a send from that track, then what I burn on disc won't have any of the plugs that are on that original Aux track. Does that make sense, or have I made another rookie error? I seriously value all the input I get from more experienced users like yourself, so please be patient if I am doing something really stupid. :confused:

D.J.

[daeron80]

If I don't use a send from that track, then what I burn on disc won't have any of the plugs that are on that original Aux track.

Oh, that makes sense. Sending a processed signal seems like a good reason to use the send.

[SpinningDisk]

Hi daeron,
Good to hear from you. Hope all is well.
I like what you and others had to say and have tried those technics and like them very much. Now I am beginning to understand. Now I can concentrate on my song writing. I've always sent my mix to the Masterlink without dither and I guess I've been lucky. Would it be real obvious if I was supposed to use dither? Most of the time I just keep my levels at zero and use a little bit of limiting to keep the levels at zero.
Thank you again daeron for your time. It's so refreshing to know if you have a question in regards to PT you can always rely on someone here to help you out without the name calling, sarcasm etc.
Tlk 2 u sn.

John

[daeron80]

I've always sent my mix to the Masterlink without dither and I guess I've been lucky. Would it be real obvious if I was supposed to use dither?

It depends on how you're using the Masterlink - it can record at 24-, 20-, or 16-bit and has its own DSP and conversion capabilities, including noise-shaping dither. If you're using it to record directly to a regular audio CD that plays back in regular CD players, then dither needs to be added either at the output of PT (only if your session rate is 44.1 kHz) or by the Masterlink. Without it, you'll lose a little detail, depth, and imaging, and may add a little audible zipper noise on reverb tails and fade outs.

If your PT session rate is not 44.1, then after recording to Masterlink hard disc (at session rate and 24-bit), you would use the Masterlink to do sample rate conversion to 44.1, then dither down to 16-bit.