Bass Guitar

[thenchel]

I have been working on numerous songs and am trying to get the bass parts recorded now. I have been going directly into the 002 rack and it hasn't been sounding all that great. I've tried EQ, slight overdrive, and comressing, but I still cannot get the sound I am looking for (which is thrash/black metal)
I am a guitarist/producer. I can transition to bass pretty well, so I know its not a technique issue. With using what I have, I am not getting the bass to sound right.
I don't have a bass amp, so Direct In is the only way to go. With using only what I have (bass, EQ and compression plug ins and 002 Rack) does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

[Premo]

Maybe try demoing some plug-ins like IK Multimedia AMPEG SVX (http://www.ikmultimedia.com/ampegsvx/) and or try using a guitar plug-in like Eleven (never tried on Bass specifically but amazing on guitar for adding life to a lifeless instrument!) or even Metal Amp Room by Softube (http://www.softube.se/metal_amp_room.php) for a dirty growling bass or distorted bass sounds.

I'd try them in that order too. It's all personal preference so just gotta try em out and see. I believe those are all fully functional plug-ins as demos too. Report back and let us know how it goes~! :-)

[TCM]

I believe Izotope's Trash lite comes with the Ignition pack!
Try this one.
Another suggestion is Amplitube or Ampeg Uno.

Hope that helps!

[ondruspat]

I usually split my signal path and use amp sims on both. For example I'll record the bass direct and put the output of that track to two aux's. On each of those I'll have a amp sim, one clean, one distorted. I then mix those to my final bass tone. Usually I'm using my SWR head as a pre-amp recording direct, then on one aux I have Amplitube just using the bass speaker emulation (my clean channel), on the other aux I use AmplitubeLE for the distortion channel (I found I like the LE version best for bass distortion even if it won't reset the saved settings properly!).

[sambeau]

Amplitube works for me.

I also had a similar problem with a band - where it ended up being the guy's bass itself (even though it was a Fender Jazz). When I recorded it direct, it sounded like crap. I had a newer bass (schecter) with active electronics - that has a great sound when recorded direct.

[sunburst79]

Amplitube works for me.

I also had a similar problem with a band - where it ended up being the guy's bass itself (even though it was a Fender Jazz). When I recorded it direct, it sounded like crap. I had a newer bass (schecter) with active electronics - that has a great sound when recorded direct.

I know the original poster said money was a issue but active electronics and a direct in are a great start. If the posters bass is passive and he can borrow a direct box it may help. If there is a mismatch between the bass and the input inserting a stomp box with a properly designed buffer might help things out. A outboard tube pre could be used to warm things up. Try using the preamp out of a clean sounding guitar amp to add some EQ and warmth.

[DrFord]

How about a really cheap little tube pre-amp? Spend maybe $100 or so. It's hard because DI bass really will always sound like cardboard and crap compared to a decent mic pre. By that I mean I record without an amp alot, but I run it through my Avalon 737sp or sometimes I use my Focusrite ISA where I can change impedance. The thing is that no matter how many plug in's you use, if your source signal isn't good the output won't ever sound tasty.

If you really need some love, why not rent a piece of gear or buy one from Sweetwater on a credit card and return it... girls do this at prom all the time with dresses. I mean, especially if you are trying to get a serious product pull out all the stops.

D

[wwittman]

The IK SVX is a good suggestion...

so is the idea of a direct box instead of plugging straight into the 002

I might recommend the Tech 21 Sans Amp Bass Driver DI or RBI.
You can use it either as JUST a better DI than the 002 input, OR you can do some tone and distortion shaping in the Sans Amp and might find you don't need the SVX.

also, do you have a GOOD bass guitar?

lastly, forgive me but I've found over many years that it's the RARE guitarist who actually CAN play bass guitar to sound right (even though they all think they can!)
Don't take it for granted.

[thenchel]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will look into a decent pre and go from there.

[wwittman]

Just to clarify, I don't think anyone said a PRE.

just a DI.
you'd still be using the mic pre in the 002 (via its XLR input) after the external DI

[thenchel]

How about a really cheap little tube pre-amp?
D

Yes they did

[ondruspat]

Since Digidesign has now released the SansAmp PSA-1 for free I thought I'd mention this. Years ago an engineer friend of mine told me that the SansAmp was his bass tone secret weapon. He'd split the output of the bass, run one line in direct, put SansAmp on the other, and mix the two tones to taste.

[ejwells]

Just to clarify, I don't think anyone said a PRE.

just a DI.
you'd still be using the mic pre in the 002 (via its XLR input) after the external DI

Actually, they DID suggest a pre, and a pre is the best bet, IMO.
The higher end the better.
A DI to the 002 pre will work, but it's an inferior choice, IMO
I track bass through a side of my UA 2-610, or a side of my Vintech 1272, with great results.
I'll add some Sans Amp and compression after the fact
A good bass is crucial.
I prefer a Fender P bass.
I prefer passive pickups.
Matter of fact, I'll never use a bass with active pickups myself...EVER.

[guitar486]

If you're looking for a good middle-ground pre amp I highly recommend the ART Digital MPA. I've had much success with this preamp with vocals, guitar and bass. It's 2 channel and both channels have hi-z ins on the front. It's about $400. I think zzounds has it for the cheapest. +1 for sansamp!

[schuyler_c]

Without knowing what type of Bass you're using, it's impossible to make a solid recommendation as to how to improve the sound. As a bassist and engineer, i agree that it's the RARE guitarist who can make a bass sound good. I mean, just because someone can play the drum kit, it doesn't mean that they're any good on congas. Now assuming that you're sufficiently experienced to make a bass sound good, how good of a bass are you using? Obviously something like a Yamaha bass is going to be real tough to make sound like a good Modulus or vintage J-Bass. Active or passive isn't really the issue - a talented player can make a decent bass sound good either way. Run it through a good quality DI or Mic Pre (Avalon, UA, Brick, even a Radial), and you should be set to go - just color with your favorite amp simulator or effects and that's it. If you're having issues, revisit the Player, the Bass, and the DI - in that order. If those three things are solid, you can do anything with it afterwards. If they aren't, you'll always be struggling to get it right.

[Dorian Green]

Heyo!
I've been playing bass guitar for more than 15 years and I've always recorded my US Jazz Bass thru an active DI Box, during my recording sessions.
SansAmp is a really good choice (hardware or software), but I recently put some GTR on my bass and it really gives some warmth and clean transients.
A real bass player will defo change the groove of your song!

[mingustoo]

A cheap Presonus tube mic pre can do wonders to a bass track.

[twig]

dude i know the music you play.....low budget best bets....sans awp box....100 bucks i think.....art tube studio mp ......30 bucks! 12ax7 tube(switch it out) its a mic pre too! super impresive for the price.....svx is amazing! if you are aproducer a must! ive heard full high end record with di and svx only killer! ampeg wouldnt put their name on it if itdidnt smoke. last case mess w some stomp boxes for gain , eq and fatness.....sans amp is industry standard and amazing. svx next.....cheers good luck
p.s ive run a bass through a guitar rig, low volume, not much lows......mix it in w the di and some q and its a quick fix for some ears and depending on the app.......LOW VOLUME!

[wwittman]

Actually, they DID suggest a pre, and a pre is the best bet, IMO.
The higher end the better.
A DI to the 002 pre will work, but it's an inferior choice, IMO
I track bass through a side of my UA 2-610, or a side of my Vintech 1272, with great results.
I'll add some Sans Amp and compression after the fact
A good bass is crucial.
I prefer a Fender P bass.
I prefer passive pickups.
Matter of fact, I'll never use a bass with active pickups myself...EVER.

Personally I wouldn't call either of those pres "high end"

and some active bass guitars are truly incredible, just as some 'P basses' are crap (most in fact) and some are stellar.

The SansAMp hardware boxes have the dual beneift of being good DIs AND offering the SansAmp processing to get the sound right in the FIRST place instead of leaving it, put off, for later.
Always a better idea.


I don't think you can make a MEANINGFUL improvement over the preamps in a 002 without spending more than about $600 a channel.
But that's just my OPINION.

[O.G. Killa]

If i'm not mistaken, the 002 line/DI inputs are just padded inputs into the mic preamp. The line and DI inputs on the 002 are NOT discrete/separate inputs. I've found that using those inputs doesn't sound as good because of the pad they are putting into the signal. I think this might be part of the problem with the sound you are unhappy with.

I've found just by using a DI and then going into the Mic input (instead of Line or DI) helps the sound significantly because you bypass the electronics used to bring those inputs down to mic level inside the box.

If believe the 003 and 003+ are not wired in this way, and so you don't have this same problem on those devices, but I could be wrong.

[DrFord]

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Brick/

I'm quick fond of this little guy. Had great results using it on DI bass.

Although nowadays I go DI to my Avalon 737. But the brick's only 400 and has many good uses.

[DrFord]

http://www.avalondesign.com/instrudi.html

These run for like $500 I think. This would also be a VERY nice addition to any studio. When I worked at the Mint in 2004 just about every non microphone track we had ran through an Avalon mic pre before going to print.

[manyrains]

or buy one from Sweetwater on a credit card and return it...

D

:eek: do people really do that?!;)

[Dorian Green]

I have an old friend who bought a bunch of equipement, he of course had enough dosh on his account to do it!
He took some Apogees Rosetta, SSL Channel strip, Thermionic comp....I mean everything all of us would like to have in his own studio.
He really prepared all his recording in pre production, received all his stuff, plug everything together in half of a day they did a non stop recording session on 20 days.

Once finished, he sent back all the stuff he bought and got his money back.
He took his equipement on DV247.com (UK Online Store).At this time they did 30-days satisfied or refund! (Obviously too many abuse cases of that kind, they are now 7-Days).

Anyway, he got his album done with state of the art stuff for MORE then free cause he even earn some money as the price is in GBP and the price in Euro depends on the currency.

But I don't really agree with this method cause you have to know your equipement like the back of your hand, and got used to its analog defaults and qualities.And a nice piece of gear in your studio is like a lil jewel!

So to answer your question , yes some people do that!

[Sven62]

If you really need some love, why not buy one from Sweetwater on a credit card and return it... girls do this at prom all the time with dresses. I mean, especially if you are trying to get a serious product pull out all the stops. D

O M G !!! :eek:

[solidwalnut]

...I've found just by using a DI and then going into the Mic input (instead of Line or DI) helps the sound significantly because you bypass the electronics used to bring those inputs down to mic level inside the box.

If believe the 003 and 003+ are not wired in this way, and so you don't have this same problem on those devices, but I could be wrong.

I don't know if you're correct on the 003 electronics or not, but I can definitely hear a difference between the line in and using a DI through the mic input on the 003.

[solidwalnut]

:eek: do people really do that?!;)

No! Actually my sales engineer encourages me to do it if I'm not really sold on it.

[Premo]

Softube released Bass Amp Room Plug-in and it's pretty nice IMO.

[ejwells]

Personally I wouldn't call either of those pres "high end"

and some active bass guitars are truly incredible, just as some 'P basses' are crap (most in fact) and some are stellar.

The SansAMp hardware boxes have the dual beneift of being good DIs AND offering the SansAmp processing to get the sound right in the FIRST place instead of leaving it, put off, for later.
Always a better idea.


I don't think you can make a MEANINGFUL improvement over the preamps in a 002 without spending more than about $600 a channel.
But that's just my OPINION.

Really? You don't consider a UA 2-610 a high end pre? At 1100.00 per side? It's CERTAINLY a "meaningful" improvement over the stock 003 pres, at the very least, and happens to be great for bass and vocals, by ANY standards. And while the Vintech 1272 clocks in at right about 550.00 per side, if you're saying it's not an improvement over the stock Digi pres, then obviously you haven't heard one. I use mine for kick and snare mainly, but it's a great bass pre too, especially when used with a Distressor.
Active pickups have their place, I won't argue that. But, they don't have their place for ME, and I detest the sound of them...period...in all cases. For the style of music I play, they're not a choice, and I'd never buy a bass with them, under any circumstances. P-Bass or Lakland passive for me, always.
You can say "most P-Basses are crap," but tens of thousands of hit records rather belie that sentiment.

[Stiff]

Youwsa! Old thread guys! I want to join in! :D

OP, if you haven't found your tone for black metal yet despite searching since last year, then heed my advice: get an amp. High-end pre's and good bass players are way overrated in this art form - amps are not.

[TheLEM]

If you have a guitar rig, try running the bass through it with a large diaphram condensor combined with a cardiod (like sure 57) on the speaker cab..if you have the tracks available, you can record each mic to a seperate track, tweak each tone and blend in the mix...the guitar rig may help warm it up and the speaker cone will offer a natural compression...the Pre in the Guitar amp may offer some eq'ing options also so you can print it already slightly Eq'd.

Hint...you can dirty it up with an overdrive from your amp or pedal too. I often record Bass through a DI and take a line into an amp and mic it...I even used a small fender pro junior w/ a 10" speaker....remember, no rules, what ever it takes to get the tone!

[earshatter]

Personally, if you want a good sound....you have to start with a decent sound, and yes, gobs and gobs of stuff can tweak it, but as the saying goes: "if you start with [bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep], and you polish the [bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep], you will end up with chrome plated [bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep]"

If you are serious about sound, recording and the final product, do yourself and everyone that will be listening a favor, spend what you can afford, buy yourself a "decent" pre-amp of some sort (and not those $100 jobs that come in a pretty little box with a picture of a glowing tube and some guy with a smiley face on it), but a decent on, or get a decent FX box. The POD is crazy good to get a decent sound to start with. There are gtr and bass PODs. Rent one, rent something from your music store and find out what sound you are looking for, then keep it and pay that sucker off.