Multiple cues?

[The_Shoe]

My monitor engineer has the oppritunity to take a Profile out on the August leg of our tour. But after using the Venue last night at a casino, he has mentioned that he wants to go back to a 5D because he can't figure out how to do multiple cue outs on the D-Show system.

I have been mixing house for the last two years on Profile for our tours, and I can't honestly tell him how to make it happen. I feel that the Profile will be the best sounding option for the band I work with, but am affraid we will be going back to the 5D if I can't figure this out.

Any help?

John Schirmer

[Jim Roach]

My preferred way is to assign the monitor out to 4 outputs. Two of them feed the cue in-ear system. The other two go through a volume pedal to the cue wedge amps. I leave the monitor volume pot on the surface at full.

Using a pedal gives me instant control of the cue wedge volume.



Jim

[Sheldon Radford]

Hi John,

Let's see if we can figure this out...and I'm assuming you mean separate cue buses for ears and wedges.

There aren't two totally separate cue buses (aka solo or monitor bus) within the console, but there are a few ways to get similar functionality. The monitor bus is fully routable within the patchbay, so it's possible to patch one output to ears, and another to a listen wedge. Then, use an external volume control (foot pedal) to control the volume of the wedge. It's old school, but it works.

Or, take the cue bus out one of the digital outs and loop it back into a digital input. Then take this input and assign it as a user input to one or two of the stereo matrixes (PQs), and use these to drive the ears/wedge combo. The advantage to this arrangement is that you could easily create two events (Options > Events) to switch between the two listen modes, simply by muting/unmuting the output master. A footswitch or function switch could be used to automate toggling between the two.

Will either of these approaches work? If not, give a bit more detail on how he currently does it on the 5D (which doesn't have separate cue busses either, if I recall correctly) and we'll come up with something.

Sheldon

[The_Shoe]

Sheldon and Jim,

Both of your answers where really helpful, in fact I remember now reading something on the same vain. I think this will really help him out in making his choice more obvious.

Also Sheldon I would like to thank you for making yourself so visable with in our comunity, you have been helpful to quite a few folks, myself included, on this site and PSW. Some of the advice I got from you regarding TDM plug-ins has made my time with the profile that much more fun and productive.

I am going out in August with the Profile and an HD rig to record some shows for release on our website and knowing that you will be lurking is quite a comfort factor.

Thanks guys, see you out on the road,

John Schirmer

[dstagl]

Hi John,

Let's see if we can figure this out...and I'm assuming you mean separate cue buses for ears and wedges.

There aren't two totally separate cue buses (aka solo or monitor bus) within the console, but there are a few ways to get similar functionality. The monitor bus is fully routable within the patchbay, so it's possible to patch one output to ears, and another to a listen wedge. Then, use an external volume control (foot pedal) to control the volume of the wedge. It's old school, but it works.

Or, take the cue bus out one of the digital outs and loop it back into a digital input. Then take this input and assign it as a user input to one or two of the stereo matrixes (PQs), and use these to drive the ears/wedge combo. The advantage to this arrangement is that you could easily create two events (Options > Events) to switch between the two listen modes, simply by muting/unmuting the output master. A footswitch or function switch could be used to automate toggling between the two.




I would love it if we could get the Monitor bus selectable as one of the Mains in the PQ mixes.

Dave

[Rockpolice]

A really cool feature would be if there would be 2 monitor busses, to which you could choose which aux goes to which monitor group.

And another feature stolen from Innovason for monitor use. When you choose a channel, the aux masters would show how much the chosen channel is going to the aux. Makes feeding the channel to different auxes really fast.

I'm really bad on explaining things today(or always), but hope you got what I ment.

[Tiginbna]

Here is another monitor guy weighing in. Yes the 5d does not have multiple monitor outs, and until recently the one that existed could not be virtually patched, but what it DOES have is 2 master L/R (Stereo A/B) faders at the mixers finger tips. If your guy is like me, he is either tired of, too lazy too, or wants to be smarter than the desk and puts his final Q'ing (monitor, PFL etc) through the stereo buss, thus eliminating the knob at the top of the surface (put it all the way up) and making the stereo buss (fader) the master Q output. With console "Y" you then have the ability to physically patch L/R 1 to the ears Q, and L/R 2 to a wedge Q. And to boot L/R 2 has a "mono" switch. So this being said, I use the volume pedal method when I need to listen to wedges.
By the way, Sheldon, being able to assign the Q straight to the stereo bus and not using a return, would be really cool.
Also, have I missed to place where I can put the oscilator before the master output faders?

BC

[Sheldon Radford]

Hi BC,

Thanks for weighing in. Great to see you on the DUC.

By the way, Sheldon, being able to assign the Q straight to the stereo bus and not using a return, would be really cool.It's on the list...
Also, have I missed to place where I can put the oscilator before the master output faders?Nope, you haven't missed it. Osc to master is always post fade. For more flexibility patch the Osc to an input channel (it's routable via the patchbay), then you can route it wherever needed.

Thinking more about the "dual stereo bus as a cue bus" approach I see the benefit of having two faders as well as two mutes at the ready. This same type of functionality could be achieved on a VENUE system by looping the Monitor output back to a pair of inputs, then assigning these inputs to two separate stereo matrixes (PQs) and using these to drive the listen IEM and wedge. Then, using the Events list, you could configure a function switch or footswitch to automatically toggle between the two. I bet it'd work like a charm....

Sheldon

[Tiginbna]

I almost set it up that way, but it still has me reaching up to that corner of the console 150 times in a 3 hour show. The whole purpose of putting the Q on the master fader is to have the control that I use the most at my closest convenience.

BC

[Sheldon Radford]

True enough - the approach I described works well for doing a hard cut between IEM and wedge, but for volume control you'd need to reach for the PQ master faders (and lose sight of VCAs or Aux masters temporarily). On the up side it does give two separate master faders, one for IEM and one for wedge.

Let's keep working at this and try something different...
1) Assuming the LR bus is available, loop the monitor output back into an unused stereo channel or FX Return and route this to LR. Watch out for feedback loops - turn off Mix To Monitors...
2) Set up the output patching to route LR to your IEM, then store this as a snapshot. Label it "IEM".
3) Change the output patching to route LR to your wedge, then store this as a snapshot. Label it...uh..."Wedge"
4) Set the scope of each of these snapshots so that just the LR faders and the OUT datatype are scoped. If you'd like you could also scope fader and set a starting level for each scenario. Or not. Your choice.
5) Assign each snapshot to its own function switch, footswtich, etc.

This approach gives a single Q fader (which may or may not be ideal depending on the gain staging of IEM versus wedge) and switches between driving the output to IEM or Wedge.

Getting closer?

Sheldon

[Jim Roach]

My preferred way is to assign the monitor out to 4 outputs. Two of them feed the cue in-ear system. The other two go through a volume pedal to the cue wedge amps. I leave the monitor volume pot on the surface at full.

Using a pedal gives me instant control of the cue wedge volume.



Jim

Let's keep working at this and try something different...
1) Assuming the LR bus is available, loop the monitor output back into an unused stereo channel or FX Return and route this to LR. Watch out for feedback loops - turn off Mix To Monitors...

I was using all 16 auxes and 8 groups plus L/R on that tour which is why I found the volume pedal to work best for me. I have since switched to a PM1D for simplicity's sake.


By the way, Sheldon, being able to assign the Q straight to the stereo bus and not using a return, would be really cool.

BC

This would be ideal! Maybe even have 2 cue busses, cue A and cue B, one controled by the monitor pot and the other controled by the master fader. User assignable, like a Digico D5.



Jim

[Sheldon Radford]

Hi Jim,

Maybe even have 2 cue busses, cue A and cue B, one controled by the monitor pot and the other controled by the master fader.
There's nothing we'd like better to do than to flip a switch and make this happen. Unfortunately, reality keeps getting in the way...

The cue bus is perhaps the most complicated bus on any console, analog or digital. Consider the variety of sources it must handle (inputs, outputs, Mains) as well as the pickoff points it must also access for each of these sources (AFL, PFL, Solo In Place); then, throw in a bit more logic (input priority, auto cancel, etc.) and it quickly adds up to a daunting task. So it's not as easy as just adding another bus or even re-purposing an existing bus.:(

In the meantime, we try our best to offer effective, creative solutions and workarounds using the existing architecture, and hope that it meets your needs (but knowing that it won't always).

Sheldon

[AndyEbert]

Hi everyone,

I spend my first day on this Forum today and read about some good and useful ideas. Thanks!

Here is what I do since I started using the Venue or Profile consoles and coming from the analog Midas world I wanted it as easy and analog as possible. I have both cue's, stereo IEM and mono Wedge, on the Master Fader and use 2 Mute groups to enable either one of 'em.
This is how I route it (I don't know if it makes sense, but it works great for me):
Select PATCHBAY OUTPUT and assign: Monitor L to AES 1, Monitor L to AES 3, Monitor R to AES 4

I use the last 3 input channels that I don't use (94-96) and call (label) them Wedge, IEM left, IEM right (you can use FX returns, i.e. instead as well).
Select PATCHBAY INPUT and assign: AES 1 to Wedge, AES 3 to IEM left, AES 4 to IEM right

Physically patch the AES in- and outputs at the FOH rack!

Select each Input channel, set Input GAIN to 0dB and the channel Fader to 0dB on all 3 channels. Select the Wedge Input channel, ASSIGN BUS to MONO, select IEM left Input channel, ASSIGN BUS to L-R and PAN left (-100), select IEM right Input channel, ASSIGN BUS to L-R and PAN right (100).

Now assign one MUTE GROUP (i.e. 1) to the Wedge Input and one MUTE GROUP (i.e. 2) to the IEM left and the IEM right Input. I guess you could assign the Mute Groups to the Outputs (L-R and C) instead if you'd like that better.

Assign OUTPUTS LEFT, RIGHT and MONO to physical OUTPUTS (i.e. Stage Rack 1: 22, 23, 24), patch the OUTPUTS to your IEM unit L+R and the Wedge Amp and there you go.

Switch from one MUTE GROUP to the other and you'll have one CUE Fader for IEM and one for your Wedge (even though it's physically only the one Master Fader).
And don't forget to have the MONITOR knob on the control surface all the way up (or set it to a level you desire).

Please let me know if this works for all you monitor guys out there.

Happy mixing and (hopefully) happier cuing,
Andy

[soundarchitect]

Hello everybody,

I'm new on the DUC since today...

Most of the time I spend behind a Venue is as a FOH engineer so when a collegue asked me how to set up a listening-wedge output on the (master) fader, I started looking and ended up here.

I think most of the options you guys gave are really working. Especially the approach Andy uses with the mute groups. Thanks! It is of great help....

But, perhaps I've got some things to consider:

- You can route signals back into the system without physically connect cables. Do this by inserting a 'not-functioning-plugin' (like Time Adjuster Short, or Trim) and just let it sit in the plug-in rack to act as a router. Here you can use the bus input fed from your monitor output and route it back to any input (stereo) on your console.

- The withdraw of the setup Andy uses is that if you listen to a stereo source (such as keyboards) and you only take back the L output of your monitoring bus, you are only listening to left. If you use the plugin-route, or using both outputs on the AES signal (1+2) and bring it back on a stereo channel, you can route the stereo channel to the mono bus and let the console sum it to 'true' mono...

Let me know what you think of this...

Regards,
Dennis

[AndyEbert]

Thanks Dennis,

I'm glad my ideas helped.

I like your idea to run it through a plug-in, but my rack is packed with plug-ins I'm actually using (at least on the current tour) and I'm at the limits of my DSP power. But I'm going to check this out with a new set up.

You're absolutely right about the L output only set up, I never thought about that.
I cue everything through my stereo in ears and only use the wedge when I actually listen to a wedge-, or sidefill mix and those are mono only. I guess that's the reason it never occurred to me. I'm going to change that at the next gig on Saturday to true stereo as well though. Great idea!

Cheers,
Andy