pt5&amiii

[coaster]

i am confused: will pt5 be supported with amiii cards? I am mostly interested in the MIDI upgrade, as from what i understand i can finally rid my machine of studio vision pro(ugh) if i can use the new pt. i really enjoy pt and only wish i had a way to afford a bigger setup. but for now i am happy with 4.3.2. any info would be appreciated.

*anyone using a MIRAGE 8 bit?

[Targon]

Yes u will be able to use ProTools 5le with you're AM-3

TaRGØN

[coaster]

cool. thanx for the info. i wonder if the dfx-presets bug will finally be fixed in that version.

[noisefloor]

Well, it's a bit of a sticky question - technically, the amIII will NOT support PT5. It will support 5LE, but since it's missing some features that are in 4.3.2, many amIII owners may not want to upgrade to it.

Mike

[ProdInfo]

coaster,

I think once you see the cool new edit features and integrated midi sequencer in Pro Tools LE 5.0 (MIDI and audio side by side in the same window!) You'll want to consider this upgrade. Click here to learn more about 5.0 LE and to sign up for a demo at your local dealer: http://www.digi001.com/ptle.html

T.J. Thomas
digidesign

[Kasper]

I must agree w/ Mike (noisefloor), and T.J. lets get real here, please !

When will Digi wake up and smell the $money$.

By deleting features that trusting customers already paid for You are just shooting yourself in the foot. This is a real chicken sh*t move. The 001 and PTle are supposed to be the answer to MOTU and Cubase. Well they are not the answer, but here is a question-

How many composers and musicians,the intended market for PTle and the 001, have no use for Time Code ??- I don't know of any. With all the multimedia work being done in home studios Time Code is a must !!

Question #2-

How many engineers use PT at a full blown studio and also use PT at home or in smaller edit rooms in the same studio ??- I know at least 10 or 12.
How many are going to "downgrade" to PTle and give up Time Code ??- 0, as in none !!

I have a full blown PT system in the studio and I also do just as much or more work at home on my AMIII system. The best thing about ProTools was that it did not matter what system you were running, the software was the same. This is what set ProTools apart from everyone else.

I will not "downgrade" to PTle, and all you have to do is take a look at the flood of posts on this forum to see that I am far from alone.

I will not purchase anymore "Upgrades" for my full ProTools system. Not until Digi sets things right.This is a matter of principal. Everyone who purchased any ProTools system or software was told that it was the same software used by all systems sold by Digi. They were also told that all hardware would always be upgradeable and never obsolete. Well, stripping out features and selling a watered down version of ProTools to AMIII and 001 users does not sound like Digi has lived up to the promise they made to loyal customers.

The marketing dept. has come up with the brilliant idea that if they strip out the Time Code features, that AMIII customers have come to rely on, then all those customers will move up to a PT Mix Plus system. Well, this is not going to happen. If customer A has $1,000 to spend and needs Time Code is Customer A all of a sudden going to have $12,000 ? I don't think so. Customer A isn't going to buy a bigger boat. Customer A is going to "jump ship" !!
There are just too many alternatives available in today's market.

Think long and hard before You support Digi any longer. For You may be the next customer they judge worthy of a "Downgrade"

One final question-

How many Digi marketing geniuses does it take to bankrupt the company ??

I don't know. How many have ya got ??

Kasper

[Targon]

Kasper: chill out man:P
I hardly think a company is gonna go bankrup for not implementing Time Code for U.Jesus, PT and AudioMedia-3 is near useless anyhow with offline proccessing and yet u still bought it.

Now if we were talking about a major issue of say Digidesign dropping the Mac platform ,then sure we all would have something to scream about and i bet my ass on the street Digidesign would go bankrupt:P

I can clearly remember the massive backlash AVID recieved when they announced they were dropping Composer for the Mac.Man I have never seen such a hostile response ever.If Digidesign ever did that to us and forced us to go NT then im sure the same hostility would be shown and as a consequence many more Sonic Solutions systems would show up.

But back to the point,timecode is not even an issue for me or anyone i know who intends to pay this small amount for ProTools le 5 and Digi-001.

There are a few things i disagree with Digi on about PT 5le but ill not repeat those here,instead if u wish to read the points i raised i direct u to the thread at Apple Insider

http://forum.appleinsider.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001156.html

All in all i really do think you are over reacting somewhat.

TaRGØN

[This message has been edited by Targon (edited 10-21-99).]

[noisefloor]

Targon - "overreacting somewhat"??? You sound like the typical selfish user who only wants features YOU use implemented. We're talking about people who have current hardware who are now stuck with their current version of the software because the "new" version lacks the features they need to work. The most sinister aspect of this whole thing is that now you HAVE to buy digi hardware to run protools - it's now a closed platform. And if you want to run protools with timecode, you have to spend $7-$10k. Period. Digi wants to compete on the low end, but they're afraid of losing TDM sales. Well, they'll still lose those sales, but instead of losing them to themselves, they'll lose them to MOTU, emagic, etc.


Mike

[jimlongo]

If I can't go to 5 with AM cards that I use offline. I probably won't go there with my TDM systems either.
It's too hard going back and forth between system versions.
4.3.2 will do the job until there's another way.
I guess the good news is that you can buy AM cards really cheap now, just keep those 4.3 authorizations handy.

jim

[gugu]

Targon

Today I saw a PT5 demo. Both PT 5 and LE were there. I had a look at the differences between them. Nothing really annoying (there were yet some functions you can't use in non TDM system).

But can you really tell me what Digi will save or earn in displaying 73.12.412 instead of 01:13:12:10 (I'm in Europe. 25 fr/s). That seems so stupid I can't imagine a reasonable argument for that.

gugu

[Keith Lynch]

re: No full featured AMIII w/ PT 5?

I have 8 PT systems, in a variety of configurations, including MIX 24, TDM III, AMIII, etc.

What you folks have pointed out about no T/C on AMIII PT 5.0 is a bit discouraging to me, as this particular "improvement" means that I will now not upgrade to 5.0

Too bad for Digi, as I had already capitalized for five sets of the 5.0 upgrade expenditure, (not realizing that the AMIII problem existed.)

I can't deal with 5.0 - 4.3 - 5.0 for every single studio session. That's just not possible given my process deadlines. :-{

Well, I guess I can spend that money for someone else's plug-ins, etc.


k.

[coaster]

while i am thrilled about the better midi implementation in pt5, the lack of timecode is the straw that broke the camel's back. i often use 2 da88's (hate'm-another story...) with a sy88 card run through a mark of the unicorn box. this actually works quite well, especially for track cleanup and vocal comp. i submix on an analog board and final mix in pro tools. even an idiot knows i can't use this scenario without timecode. and i don't have $12k to upgrade. i might buy pt5 for midi, and keep 4.3.2 for timecode. or maybe i'll not upgrade and spend the money on HARDWARE (anyone remember real analog gear?)
as for the seriousness of the situation, i won't allow my life to be centered around a peice of software i cannot modify or change. if it works, great. if it doesn't, i'll buy an SGI...

[Kasper]

To Targon-


"I hardly think a company is gonna go bankrup for not implementing Time Code for U.Jesus, PT and AudioMedia-3 is near useless anyhow with offline proccessing and yet u still bought it."

You are so right. It is useless, Now !

But not so in the past. Take a look at all the bitching that is going on from AMIII users. I do not speak only for myself. Many of these people use full blown systems with the AMIII.

Hello Digi!-Many people=Much $$$$ .

As Keith and Jim pointed out going back and forth between the two will be a nightmare. Many customers will opt for some other system and many will not upgrade the TDM systems they own. This looks like a sure way for Digi to go bankrupt to me.Maybe not right away, but all that upgrade $$ will start to pile up. Pile up into MOTU's or someone else's pocket.

"I can clearly remember the massive backlash AVID recieved when they announced they were
dropping Composer for the Mac.Man I have never seen such a hostile response ever.IfDigidesign ever did that to us and forced us to go NT then im sure the same hostility would be shown and as aconsequence many more Sonic Solutions systems would show up."

I know many AVID editors that have switched to Final Cut Pro, for just the reason you stated. They felt betrayed by the company that they supported for years and have found Final cut Pro to be just as good or better than the AVID, at a fraction of the cost. As far as I am concerned, Digi has forced me to go to another product. Didn't AVID learn anything from the past. We all got scared as we saw the stock drop like a rock after they said no more Mac. Now that the Mac is back again they are scrambling to try and get back all the customers that went to Final Cut Pro. Well, I think it's too late, they are long gone.

I am not asking Digi for features I want. I am asking that features not be REMOVED that i already paid for ! And yes I am hostile. This is only the start. If we roll over and let it happen, who will be next ? The PT III owners?
And what happens when 96K hardware comes out from Digi ? Will all the present hardware only be able to run PTle ?? OK, I digress,but this is just to make a point. When all the AMIII owners purchased the card they were told it would never be obsolete and run the same software as any PT system. Now Digi pulls this Sh*T. Why will anyone believe anything else Digi says ?

I am just amazed that someone in power at Digi really thinks this strategy is going to work. I hope they wake up before it is too late.

So.........I don't think I am overreacting, At all. I love ProTools and ues it everyday. I dont want to give it up. The software is great but the attitude from Digi su*ks and I for one will not support a company that pulls this kind of Sh*t, even if it didn't directly effect me.

kasper

[coaster]

kasper-
your right on the money.

digi-
is this tc removal really worth losing loyal and supportive customers?

[Targon]

Judging by the backlash, i have been forced to reconsider my position on this point.
I am sorry for failing to be more sensitive to this issue .Now that some of you have put things into perspective ,I concur,I to would be pissed if a feature was taken away in an upgraded app.Furthermore, it does seem like a pretty serious infraction,considering this feature will be made redundant if it is something that is heavily relied on.

This is a tuff issue however.I considered this version to be aimed at low end studio/bedroom studio guy's of whom only want to make tunes and edit/mix and burn them to CD in a hassle free software environment.Before this ,my ProTools software was freaking useless that came with the AM-3.The software was my sample editor app,it is the best for this but considering there is no SCSI Transfer this made life difficult.Offline proccessing was the biggest PITA,the editing environment is sooperb but i could not use it.Recording sucked cos i could not monitor.So basically it was a waste of code to me and upset me greatly because i knew this app could satisfy me greatly.So in light of this, u must be able to understand that after dreaming of being able to use ProTools with realtime plugs,simple but usefull MIDI sequencing,and controlable plug in parameters this PTle is a wild fantasy that has proliferated .

I dare say there are many many more ppl like me,many of whom who look at the likes of Steinberg and Emagic to full fill their needs.After using these app one conludes that they all blow and the strong desire to give up on computers all together looms large.

But i can undestand you're feelings, now finally you get what u and I have needed in the app then they take away something that is vital to you.

Anyways,i don't want to rock the boat anymore so im bailing out of this thread.I hope i can be redeemed??

TaRGØN

[This message has been edited by Targon (edited 10-21-99).]

[Kasper]

Targon-

No need to bail.

This is what the forum is all about. Go ahead and "rock the boat". I don't expect everyone to have the same needs or opinions as I do.

"This is a tuff issue however.I considered this version to be aimed at low end studio/bedroom studio guy's of whom only want to make tunes and edit/mix and burn them to CD in a hassle free software environment."

I can't dispute that with you.But why on earth would Digi take features away from a product?
To get people to move up to a TDM system? Looks like thats the reason, but it ain't gonna work. Even if they had the money to spend, a lot of people just don't want all the outboard gear, or simply don't have enough PCI slots in the computer.Digi is trying to force people to buy hardware, when the reason people use PT to begin with is because they love the software. I just don't get it.Most companies try to put all the features they can into a product.Why does Digi want to take features away from an existing product ?

I think the main point,that you seem to be starting to see, is that there are a lot of professional engineers that use the AMIII card. I for one do, and I would gladly send Digi some more money for the 001 if it would run ProTools. As it sits, no dice. And no upgrade of my TDM system.

For all the "bedroom" composers and engineers, if you don't use Time Code now, it won't be long before you do. For every "bedroom" composer there is a "bedroom" film maker (no pun intended) who is going to want music for his/her movie, and without Time Code it will just stay in the "bedroom".

kasper

[jimlongo]

hey maybe that Avid CEO that was just let go was the genius who thought up this "no timecode for LE" marketing nightmare, or was that the "let's get rid of Macs" fiasco http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/grin.gif
Good chance for the new CEO to be a hero.

http://www.avid.com/news/press_releases/corporate_financial/1999-q3.html

[This message has been edited by Jim Longo (edited 10-22-99).]

[This message has been edited by Jim Longo (edited 10-22-99).]

[Jack The]

The most annoying thing about this whole PTLE issue isn't that LE has no timecode. Nor is it that many of the other features I need will not be in LE.

It's that I can't buy the full version.

I would gladly walk into the local music store and plunk down cash for the full version of ProTools 5.0 even though I own a ToolBox system.

But I can't.

poo

[Kasper]

Jack The-

Right on Brother !!!!!

So would I.

What Digi has done is prevented every AMIII, toolbox and 001 customer from giving them more $$$$$.

I am completely and utterly mystified !!

kasper

[Kevan Staples]

I must agree that it seems rather silly to have two versions of the software. If anything it makes for more work for the programmers.

I would prefer one piece of software to work on all hardware. I use both a Protools d24 TDM system as well as an Audiomedia system. Both use Protools full version. If I want to upgrade to PT5 for my d24 I must now use PT5LE on my AMIII...downright goofy I say. The same goes for the new "fab gear rave" 001 card. I would love to use it in place of my AMIII but don't need to have two versions of PT.

Oh well...nevermind

Kevan

[Ed Douglas]

Kasper, Jack The, Kevan...

Right On! Right On! Right On!
(only works whilst sporting an afro)

Has anyone seen PT LE and FULL 5.0 side by side? Do they look identical? Is it possible that Digi will just drop the lines of code needed for TC display / rulers, new trim tool features and discontinuous selection?

Digi has opened up a $6,600 CDN chasm between their two markets. On one side, the home studio camp running PT LE .0 on an AMIII, or 001 costing between $680-$1,400 CDN, and on the other, the Pro segment running the FULL PT 5.0 on a TDM equipped d24, Mix, Mix+ ranging between $8,000 - $13,000+ CDN.

I keep hearing the same rationalization from a number of sources that they “... don’t want to be fielding tech support calls from the low end market regarding time code & synchronization. Those systems were never meant for that kind of thing...”.

This IMO, is more poop than I care to stand in.
If they really thought that through, they would have dropped MTC support altogether in PT LE 5.0. as they did for Powermix. Many users will still attempt to lock to TC, timeline or not, because in a pinch, THEY CAN. If it’s not there and that is well documented, they will not call.

I don’t understand why Digi won’t come out with both barrels blazing regarding the MOTU “Threat” . The 001 would be surefire competition for the 2408 with FULL TC SUPPORT enabled by a DTP / USD type sync box for those who needed it. On setup, if you DIDN’T have that synchro box hooked up, THEN the TC functions would be disabled. At least you could be certain that those who were serious about TC had spent their money to prove it. An added bonus would be that the “carrot” would always be there for those who hadn’t yet spent the extra dough for TC support and you would have only ONE version of ProTools software to support.

Where is the real money to be made here? To many of us here it makes sense that addressing customers needs means more $$$$ in sales for Digidesign, not to mention a better rep.

Is the real mandate for Digi to ship as many units as possible, or to ease the load on the testing grid?

I, for one do not need the added functionality and expense of TDM, I print my DSP as I go. What I really require in a FX editing DAW, DIGI does not provide - although the 001 was getting close.
My ideal system would have;
High track count (64 voices would be heaven)
Simultaneous 16 bit / 24 bit operation
Interleaved stereo file support
RTAS, AudioSuite, and or VST support (again, no TDM)
Off line spotting to picture.
Autoconform and Cue sheeting. (modular, plug in implementation)
Support for less expensive I/O options ie. - AES/EBU I/O - 8 pairs of 24 bit digital i/o
Full support for Fiber channel, Firewire connectivity

Anyone out there up to the challenge of filling the $6,600 gap?
Digi?

I can't recall the last time I have seen so many people willing to throw their hard earned cash at a company only to hear “uh, no thanks, it’s not worth our effort”.. oh wait... the PTIII PCI/24 bit fiasco.

Damn, I was trying to end on a positive note.

E.D.

[Kasper]

to the top.

[Marc Edwards]

Isn't it funny how many posts in the Digi User Conf are from people saying 'I have lots of money I want to give Digi, but they keep screwing up their products, so don't know what to do'?

I can think of a few that have pissed me off in the past.

I purchased TurboSynth, and sent a 2 page letter of suggested new features (I spent quite a bit of time thinking of new cool ideas for the program - all to be given to Digi for free), only to find the product has been dropped completly.

No support for ProTools s/w on ProjectII - even though I use it all the time on ProjectI (no sale - I still have my ProjectI card)

PACE protection system. Give up. No one has floppy drives anymore. PACE sucks. I'll get a pirate version of PT off the net and run it on my (very legitimate) hardware - that I need to use the s/w anyway. At least that way I can run software I _have_ paid for.

I'm not even going to list all the problems with SampleCell2... Lets just say the s/w needs upgrading, and the card could have better timing. I'd own four of these by now if they were any good. Instead, I'm just trying to find a buyer for the one card I have and don't want.

Digi - the only reason we complain is because you guys are so close to having _great_ products, but fall short for really by doing stupid things. Listen to you users, or you won't have any left!

[george flores]

Digidesign, reconsider your policy regarding the deletion of the timecode implementation in Pro-Tools 5 or LE with Audiomedia III. By discontinuing support of the timecode implementation on the Audiomedia III/Pro-Tools 5 compbination, Digidesign specifically appears to aim to prevent the semi-professional use of their "once marketed as professional hardware software combination". Up to now, the Audiomedia III/Tool Box combination, was sold as a fully supported (including timecode implemetation on future releases), entry level product specifically targeted at users such as small post-houses, radio stations, educational insitutions and add agencies.

If Digidesign wants to remain a leader in the industry, then it must be an ethical company that "doesn't screw up its customers to make a quick buck" and restore consumer confidence by reverting its position regarding the full implementation of timecode in the Audimedia III/Pro-Tools combination as, no doubt, all users of Digidesign's products, would expect.

Digidesign, you need an new CEO!.

[Ed Douglas]

I just spent a few minutes today behind the wheels of a beta of ProTools LE 5.0, and there are some great improvements in many areas of operation over 4.x.x.

Although I was aware that this beta has some features slated to be axed for the final version, I was genuinely excited about the possibilities of PT LE 5.0 DESPITE the exclusion of TC functionality.

I was almost tempted to give in to getting Toolbox XP system as an off-line station at home and put up with the hassle of TC workarounds, until I asked about how voice stealing was handled in a session with more that 24 virtual tracks in light of the lack of hard voice / track allocation .

Hmmmm.

The sales rep and I created a new session, added 25 virtual tracks and..... no dice.

The 128 virtual track limit introduced in 4.3 is MIA as it seems that 24 VIRTUAL tracks is the limit for PT LE - at least on the 001 system. While that removes any newbie confusion regarding potential voice stealing or clumsy voice assignment parameters, it neatly reduces the usefulness of PT LE 5.0 as adjunct to a full blown TDM setup.

To be fair, Digi has positioned the AMIII Toolbox XP and 001 systems for the home studio market, and if a non-expandable system with a 24 track limit and no direct timecode support suits your needs, by all means buy one. Just make sure that you buy the fastest Mac that you can afford and stuff it full of RAM - those host-based low end solutions REALLY tax the memory and I/O subsystems.

If you need a system that can handle more than 24 virtual tracks and routinely work with the timecode features present in ProTools 4.x.x, you will be hard pressed to make ProTools LE 5.0 (Toolbox XP or 001) work for you. Digidesign has really gone through the hoops to make LE unappealing to film professionals, they want YOU to buy a TDM system - END OF DISCUSSION.

Grrrrrrr.

E.D.

[Kasper]

Thanks for the info ED !!

Looks like MOTU will have a merry Christmas.

I just can't work without Time Code.

kasper