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jrm
06-20-2005, 01:45 PM
Hello everyone-
I know I've posted a lot of stupid questions here over the past month or so, but if anyone has any words of wisdom they'd be greatly appreciated.
I recently bought an mbox to take with me when i travel between my home and the studio i work in. On my flight home, one of my bags went stolen/missing. In that bag was my ilok key. I seperated my mbox and my key for just such a reason... so i wouldn't lose both. What do I need to do to get a replacement key with the correct authorization codes? I went to ilok's website, and they offer new keys, but they don't have the correct codes loaded onto them. Any ideas? thanks!

-jon-

artguilljr
06-20-2005, 01:49 PM
did you register your ilok with the Ilok utility and website ? cause if you didnt i think your kinda screwed. if you did then just buy a new one and have them update that one with the new authorizations.

Vaphoron
06-20-2005, 02:02 PM
did you register your ilok with the Ilok utility and website ? cause if you didnt i think your kinda screwed. if you did then just buy a new one and have them update that one with the new authorizations.



Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. If an iLok is lost or stolen, there is no way to get the authorizations back and they will not be replaced by anyone. If an iLok is broken, you can get send it in for repair and you won't lose the authorizations but if it is lost/stolen, there is nothing you can do. Currently, the only thing you can do to protect your investment is buy insurance for your iLok and I don't mean the insurance at iLok.com. I know it really, really sucks and I hope PACE get off their butt and find a solution for us.

artguilljr
06-20-2005, 02:06 PM
wow that freakin blows. This hole time ive had this false sense of security. now im scared......

jrm
06-20-2005, 02:10 PM
so..then I'm totally screwed and I can't use the mBox anymore? There's no way to get a replacement?

Rail Jon Rogut
06-20-2005, 02:15 PM
Your MBox will continue to function fine without your iLok.. only plug-ins with licenses will not function. I would contact your airline carrier and push them to recover your luggage. Otherwise contact your insurance carrier.

Rail

Glenn G
06-20-2005, 02:22 PM
You can use your MBox, you just can't use any iLok authorized software.

You have 2 options: 1) Bend over, open up your wallet and re-purchase everything, or 2) Don't take no for an answer and press the issue.

Someone needs to fight this battle because the policy is ridiculous.

jrm
06-20-2005, 02:24 PM
yeah, this is a total bummer. I should have said that I can use Pro Tools and record stuff, but certian plugins and such are non operational.... and that is a total bummer. Especially since our band's producer is coming out to do some work with us next week and we'd surely like to have a fully functional system. hmm... what to do.

jrm
06-20-2005, 02:25 PM
-dupe. ignore-

JCBigler
06-20-2005, 03:48 PM
Dude, you're way up [bleep] creek, without a paddle the the ominous banjo music (played by iLok) is getting louder.

The only way to fight this fight is to not buy iLok keys, and not use the software that requires an iLok authorization. I fully do not believe that iLok, or PACE Anit-Piracy, or Digidesign give a [bleep] about what happens to your productivity if your iLok key is lost or stolen.

No inssurance carrier will insure your plug-in authorizations.

You might succeed in getting the airline to recoupe your investment, if it was stolen while in their possesion.

Ilok is not about protecting your investment. It's about making sure that the legitimate owners of software authorizations only get to use it on one computer at a time. It's a method to ensure that the software developers get paid twice by the same person to use the same software authorization.

mindnoise
06-20-2005, 04:07 PM
I think the same but WHY does ilok state THIS on their site


Zero Downtime Coverage

The iLok.com Zero Downtime program enables iLok owners to immediately replace licenses in case an iLok is broken, lost or stolen. Benefits of covering an iLok include:

* Immediate replacement of licenses in the event of disaster
* Priority support during replacement event
* Peace of mind




BUT:


My iLok has been lost (or stolen). What should I do?
Start the Return Merchandise Authorization (RMA) process. Under "Step 1 - What Happened?" pick "Lost" or "Stolen" from the drop list. Read the rest of the information as you go through the RMA process. If you have ZDT coverage (or purchase it now), you will receive temporary licenses. However, because we cannot verify the exact contents of your iLok, we cannot provide you with a replacement iLok containing your previous full licenses. You must contact the software vendors and work with them to receive replacement licenses. We can verify to the vendors that the iLok has been reported to us as being lost/stolen.




this is for the physical Ilok only. So if you get your licences depends on your vendors, which is
to a degree uncertain.

any further experiences?

thanks

Moz
06-20-2005, 06:30 PM
See this posts:

lost mbox factory ilok key
#836744 - 06/07/05 07:37 PM

Chris Shaeffer
06-21-2005, 12:53 AM
I know of no vendors that will replace lost or stolen iLok auths. Not URS, not Digi, not Waves. I haven't contacted or heard of any others, but that's enough for me. I already posted my thoughts in the other thread. I really hope that iLok can figure out a solution to this because there are a lot of great plugs I'd like to use.

Good luck getting that iLok back.
Chris

jrm
06-21-2005, 07:08 AM
Wow, this totally sucks. So if I can't get either of them to replace it or reauthorize a new key, I'm goignto have to go buy the bundle again correct? I won't need to go to the whole hassle of going to GC and getting a whole new mbox setup right? I can just buy the bundle from the digistore and that would work?

I'm in contact with ilok and digidesign and they both seem to be giving me the runaround. This pretty much sucks. Thanks for all your help so far. Any other suggestions?

-jon-

brinaddison
06-21-2005, 07:33 AM
Don't take anybody's word for it.

Contact the Plugin Manufacturers directly and explain your situation. Ask for a reauthorization from them and purchase a NEW iLok key to reauthorize onto. If you are polite and "believable" they should walk you through the steps for reauthorizing a new iLok key.

I've done it successfully once before but it takes a good attitude and a GREAT explanation. All is not lost yet.

This is one reason iLok really sucks!! How many times do you lose your car keys? That's why they give you a spare set at the dealer. It's ridiculous that thousands $$$ can be lost all at once with no real way to get them back, except by groveling to the vendors with your tail between your legs.

Good luck............try it!!

Glenn G
06-21-2005, 09:54 AM
I can just buy the bundle from the digistore and that would work?



Sure it will work, but you'd give them your repeat business after they turn their back on you!?

Certainly give them every opportunity to make things right, but if you don't get anywhere play hardball: http://www.bbb.org/

The situation will never change if everyone simply accepts things as is.

jrm
06-21-2005, 10:08 AM
glen - I totally see what you are saying, and I do agree with you. I'm just thinking worst case scenario.

Glenn G
06-21-2005, 10:47 AM
Hey man I totally understand, and I'm with you. You just want to focus on your project and forget all of this extraneous nonsense.

I wish the principals involved had the same attitude instead of forcing their paying customers to waste time begging one by one for things they've already paid hard earned money for!

jrm
06-21-2005, 10:55 AM
yeah, that is the way it should be. I mean, I am more than willing to purchase a new ilok key... It's gone, and that's something that is not the fault of digidesign. So, sure, I'll buy that. But the bundle is where it is sticky. I just don't understand why they wouldn't just reauthorize for their customers. Hopefully I get some info back from digidesign and we can all be a little more informed.

Rail Jon Rogut
06-21-2005, 11:22 AM
I just don't understand why they wouldn't just reauthorize for their customers.



Because then there'd be an iLok floating around with full authorization to run the software.. and they'd have a percentage of false 'lost' reports. Just because the iLok is 'lost' doesn't disable it. Since I've only read of 3 reports on the DUC of lost iLoks, this is obviously a very small percentage issue. Most folks understand the value of their iLok and take care where they keep it.

Rail

Glenn G
06-21-2005, 11:47 AM
Because then there'd be an iLok floating around with full authorization to run the software..



That's right. Somewhere out there is an unscrupulous airport baggage handler comparing the merits of the L2 vs. the L3. When he posts his findings on the DUC we'll catch him and the reward will be that jrm gets his authorizations back.

The system works after all!

Rail Jon Rogut
06-21-2005, 11:51 AM
Software is like a book.. if the book is stolen the publisher won't replace the book for free... even if it's stolen by someone who's illiterate or can't read the language the book is written in.

Rail

jrm
06-21-2005, 11:51 AM
It's not that I don't recognize the value o fmy ilok key... its that it was stolen with my bag. It's not like I left the thing outside on a bench with a "please take me home" sign on it. Oh well, I guess the results are the same though. At any rate, it's probably sitting at the bottom of a wastebasket right now under a half-eaten pb&j sandwich.

don't ilok keys only work on the system that they were registered and authorized to/with? Does that even make sense?

Rail Jon Rogut
06-21-2005, 11:57 AM
No, the beauty of the iLok is that it is portable and allows the user to use it on many different systems... I use mine on at least 12 systems regularly.

I can't believe you actually believe that putting anything in your checked baggage is safe

Everyone knows you never put valuables (jewelry, etc) into checked baggage!

Rail

jrm
06-21-2005, 12:10 PM
thanks for the information, and the lesson on airline security! It is good to know that I can use the ilok on other systems though. I was unaware of that aspect. Some of the people I'd spoken to earlier hadn't imparted that knowledge to me. Honestly, I didn't even think twice about the baggage. I didn't have a carry on because I brought my guitar on the plane with me. Now i know for next time though.

tele_player
06-21-2005, 12:48 PM
Yes, in some ways, software is like a book. But:
- we rarely read books that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars
- books are bigger, more difficult to misplace
- we wouldn't carry such valuable books around

Anyway, the iLok isn't the software, or even the right to use it.

Using iLok technology, or something not so different, the SW vendors could have the copy protection, and the users could have reduced risk of loss. Yes, from this forum, iLok loss or theft seems like an infrequent occurence, but reducing the risk for a legitimate user wouldn't be a big expense.

Glenn G
06-21-2005, 01:22 PM
Software is like a book..



If software is like a book, then the iLok is like the plastic shrink wrap that prevents you from looking at the pornography for free!

JCBigler
06-21-2005, 04:59 PM
You know, I'm getting pretty tired of explaining this.

An iLok is not like a book. It's not like a microphone, or a guitar, or any other piece of tangible hardware.

An iLok is a key. It says so right on iLok's website.

If you loose the key for the briefcase that you keep your book in, or the cabinet that you keep your microphones in, they are still there, just like the ACTUAL SOFTWARE PLUG-INS THAT ARE STILL INSTALLED ON THE COMPUTER.

Dude, your software plug-ins are still there. You didn't loose your software. It's still installed on your computer. HOWEVER, the plug-in manufacturers (i.e. evil, greedy sons-o-btiches) won't give you a new key.

Oh, BTW the Digi Factory bundles are not downloaded. The only way to get them is to purchase one and install it from the CD that came with the Factory Bundle. So unless someone already has a Factroy Bundle (in which case they wouldn't need to the iLok key, they would have their own), they have no way to install those plug-ins.

Essentially the manufacturer of the cabinet that you keep your microphones in won't give you a new key to the cabinet after you lost the old one. So now, you have a resource, a tool, just sitting there that you have no access to.

I would say that this borders on illegal.

Vaphoron
06-21-2005, 05:17 PM
Oh, BTW the Digi Factory bundles are not downloaded. The only way to get them is to purchase one and install it from the CD that came with the Factory Bundle. So unless someone already has a Factroy Bundle (in which case they wouldn't need to the iLok key, they would have their own), they have no way to install those plug-ins..



Actually, you can download the full version of ANY Digidesign plugin from their website. You just need to have an iLok with the authorizations in order to run them after they are downloaded.


I would say that this borders on illegal.



Well, unless PACE decides to come up with a solution, I hope someone tries to take this to court to get some results.

jeffro
06-21-2005, 05:28 PM
Essentially the manufacturer of the cabinet that you keep your microphones in won't give you a new key to the cabinet after you lost the old one. So now, you have a resource, a tool, just sitting there that you have no access to.



Comparing microphones to plug-ins isn't valid. Getting a new key for your mic closet isn't a big deal, because you cannot (easily) make 'copies' of your mics. Getting a second key to my mic closet doesn't automatically double my mic collection. Software is easy to copy, so the authorization key is essential in protecting it.

I understand the frustration in all this, but I think you're blaming the wrong people.

Randirainbow
06-21-2005, 05:35 PM
[/QUOTE]Well, unless PACE decides to come up with a solution, I hope someone tries to take this to court to get some results.

[/QUOTE]

Well, you could buy a Diamond Bundle and a new key for the price of a lawyer.
Accountability is strange stuff, huh!

JCBigler
06-21-2005, 05:44 PM
I understand the frustration in all this, but I think you're blaming the wrong people.

So, who should we blame? I'm willing to bet that Protools users account for the vast majority of iLok technology users. Since Digidesign is the company that implements the usage of RTAS plug-ins and has vast sway over other plug-in developers, I think it fitting for Digidesgn to lead the pack on getting this issue resolved.

Everyone (Digidesign, iLok) suggests that you insure your iLok against theft or loss. As far as I know, no one has been able to find an insurrance carrier to write this kind of policy.

JC, what company do you use to inssure your own personal iLok and the software authorizations that are on it?

JCBigler
06-21-2005, 05:53 PM
Actually, you can download the full version of ANY Digidesign plugin from their website. You just need to have an iLok with the authorizations in order to run them after they are downloaded.




I didn't find the downloadable installer for the Factory Bundle on Digidesign's Plug-in Download Page (http://www.digidesign.com/developers/plugin_info/)

I did find the Producer Facotry plug-in bundles. But surely this isn't the same executable install file. Especially, since the Producer Factory bundles were only released in the wake of the M-Audio deal.

jeffro
06-21-2005, 05:56 PM
Everyone (Digidesign, iLok) suggests that you insure your iLok against theft or loss. As far as I know, no one has been able to find an insurrance carrier to write this kind of policy.



What insurance carriers have turned you down?

JCBigler
06-21-2005, 06:08 PM
Shelter and Farmers. Both said they couldn't insure something that is not a tangile thing, i.e. software authorizations. I was trying to set up some insurrance for my Protools system, and saxophones. Incidentally they wouldn't insure the saxophones either because I was playing them. They said they could insure them only if they were part of a collection and not being played, or used.

I haven't joind the AFM, but i may if they offer decent gear insurrance.

Vaphoron
06-21-2005, 06:09 PM
Actually, you can download the full version of ANY Digidesign plugin from their website. You just need to have an iLok with the authorizations in order to run them after they are downloaded.




I didn't find the downloadable installer for the Factory Bundle on Digidesign's Plug-in Download Page (http://www.digidesign.com/developers/plugin_info/)

I did find the Producer Facotry plug-in bundles. But surely this isn't the same executable install file. Especially, since the Producer Factory bundles were only released in the wake of the M-Audio deal.



They are the same thing but all the Bomb Factory plugins are downloadable individually which is what I was talking about.

Chris Shaeffer
06-21-2005, 06:30 PM
Yeah, its a tough question. All of the view points are valid. The software license says its like a book. The iLok site says the thing is like a key. Insurance companies say its only worth $40, the plugin companies say treat it like its worth as much as the software. I understand why the plugin makers don't want to issue new authorizations and the real threat of piracy.

But I also understand that the only thing that's between me and the software that I legally purchased is a small digital file that could easily be installed on new iLok. At the moment, there are no winners when an iLok gets lost or stolen. The ex-owner feels like a fool and the plugin manufacturers look like greedy nazis. The only winner is the thief.

I'm not blaming anyone but myself for leaving my iLok in my Powerbook unattended for a few minutes and letting someone walk off with it. The kid probably thought he was scoring a cool $50 USB drive and threw it away when it didn't work. He wasn't going to steal a Powerbook - its too valuable and obviously wrong- but a little piece of plastic. sure. Meanwhile, I'm out the $600 or so that the thing was actually worth. That was an expensive trip to the bathroom.

Why market a thing as a portable key and NOT have a way of dealing with this kind of situation? There has to be a way that works for everyone- and I'm not buying another iLok authorization until its implemented. No big deal, no blame- just my choice.

Take care,
Chris

tele_player
06-21-2005, 06:41 PM
Why market a thing as a portable key and NOT have a way of dealing with this kind of situation?



This is a very good question. There are several possible answers, here are a few:

- they (Pace, plugin vendors) don't think it's worth the effort
- they can't figure out a way to time-limit the entire iLok, and require online reauthorization. If this could be done, the argument about two iLoks existing (for the same software) goes away after expiration.
- they can't figure out a way to do this using their already-implemented time-limited authorizations

Now, even if you were able to get insurance for a nicely loaded (let's say $3000) iLok, it would probably be hundreds per year, just like insuring valuable instruments. Which would be silly, since iLok should just implement time-limiting so the thing becomes worthless after a while.

Glenn G
06-21-2005, 08:12 PM
I understand the frustration in all this, but I think you're blaming the wrong people.



Jeff, this lack of accountability is exactly the problem. I recently had correspondence with a software vendor to find out their replacement policy in case of loss or theft prior to making a purchase, and they claimed it's up to Pace to replace the license. Pace claims it's the vendor who makes the call. And now we know that Digi is shrugging their shoulders as well.

The fact that the people involved in instituting this policy don't seem to fully understand its implications is both comical and deeply troubling.

The iLok has been an entire success in eliminating piracy. The question is whether it will become equally successful in eliminating your potential customers.

Eric L
06-21-2005, 08:28 PM
- they can't figure out a way to time-limit the entire iLok, and require online reauthorization. If this could be done, the argument about two iLoks existing (for the same software) goes away after expiration.
- they can't figure out a way to do this using their already-implemented time-limited authorizations

iLok should just implement time-limiting so the thing becomes worthless after a while.



I was thinking the same thing. It would require a two way "interaction" between ilok and the website that would reset the time out period. You could plug it in to any computer with an internet connection, say once every 30 days to reset it.

It would be even better if studio based systems could stay authorized via an internet connection on startup. If the ilok is connected you could have a choice on startup, intenet or ilok. The ilok authorization could be suspended if you use the internet method, but you could transfer that authorization back to the ilok for all your travelling needs. If you start your studio system without the ilok, it would default to internet authorization.

Just a thought. Not really flushed out. It would take a bit of work from someone to implement such a thing. I bet we see hydrogen pumps at gas stations first.

mindnoise
06-22-2005, 03:48 AM
HI,

personally, despite all the hassle of loosing an iLok, constant reauthorization totally sucks,

because it will go down when you just donīt need it additional to the potentially higher
danger ilok failure when transfering new asstes every month or so, which has to be done regarding to the current ilok technology. I donīt think the ilok was made for this.


In fact I think there must be a way to insure the software/licence you bought, not the key.
So you insure your McDSP Classic Pack licence directly and if it gets stolen you get the money to
buy new licencees.

Ironically this is the same with all certified documents: you loose them youīre blasted.
When you loose your driving licence you will get a replacement but you have to pay.

meaning an iLok is quite obscure object which has a wide range of actual (licence) value.
A receipt of an actual software purchase isnīt.

regs

PS:what I donīt get is that ilok state the canīt confirm the actual content of you ilok.
BUT they have the ONLY place where I can mange my Ilok PLUS they charge $25 for each
movment of licencees, my Ilok account holds my Ilok ID and the tansaction history.

So what is ti they canīt keep track of?

brinaddison
06-22-2005, 08:30 AM
I kind of like the idea of time-expired reauthorization, if it's a quick one step process where you have to log onto your account (username/password required) and Pace just scans the ilok quickly and flags it as ok, you're good to go in a few seconds. It would not mean reauthorizing every single plugin one at a time. That really sucks!!

The only time it would bring you to a grinding halt would be if you were not connected to the internet. But then you simply pop it into an online computer and voila, done.
Also, it would have to happen only on Launch of PT and not in the middle of tracking. There should be a warning a day or two before it happens, so when it does happen, it's not a big surprise. You would still be able to continue working in the current session but as soon as you Quit, the reauthorization would need to take place before using those plugins again.

I think it's a small price to pay considering what's at stake. The beauty of this is that the "Thief" does not know your personal information so at that point he/she is terminated.

The internet authorization for studios at startup will never fly, 'cause the ilok could be in another computer too, so, no go on that idea.

For now I think your only recourse is the one I stated in my last reply to this post. Explain to the vendors what happened and be polite and forthcoming and hopefully they will understand your situation and help. You only get one shot at it though. If this becomes a pattern, they'll cut you off.

Good Luck!

P.S: I think the vendors should give us more options for authorization, not everyone jumps from rig to rig with their iLok. And or a more secure way to attach the key to the computer. I work in a Big studio in Seattle with HD3 Accel and we have a lot of producers coming in all the time to use the studio and it's just a matter of time before we have a "Not so legit producer" simply walk off with our iLok.

Knowing this really sucks! and I hope Digidesign and their friends are also looking out for their customers and not just their bottom line.

mindnoise
06-22-2005, 08:39 AM
I kind of like the idea of time-expired reauthorization, if it's a quick one step process where you have to log onto your account (username/password required) and Pace just scans the ilok quickly and flags it as ok, you're good to go in a few seconds.



As far as the ilok v.1.0 technology (the current one) is, this is not possible at all.


It would not mean reauthorizing every single plugin one at a time. That really sucks!!



this is just what the situtation would look like with the current ilok. Getting only time-limited
licencees with the assets to be downloaded month after month. Once you have working unlimited
licencees on you Ilok ilok.com has no means whatever to disable them.

And I donīt intent to PAY for ilok technology V2.0


I also think itīs time for the users to realise to treat this ilok with as much, or even more care as your Credit Card: Donīt let it ever out of sight!

ggunn
06-22-2005, 10:02 AM
To solve this dilemma, it would only take a method for iLok to be able to "kill" the lost key. I assume that every key has a unique address.

Maybe a satellite receiver embedded in the hardware could erase the ROM (or whatever device the codes are stored on) on command from the Mother Ship. The Kill Codes could ride on any satellite TV's bitstream and be broadcast constantly (or periodically), so whenever the rogue key happened to be near a window, ZAP.

Is that too Buck Rogers?

Glenn G
06-22-2005, 10:20 AM
Why not give the consumer the choice?

Pace would give you the option of having to synchronize your iLok every xx months to renew the licenses, or you could opt to forego this with the understanding that no replacement licenses will be issued if it's lost or stolen. (The 1 or 2 day prior to expiration notification idea is a good one.)

This way everyone knows what they've signed up for and the consumer gets to work how he/she feels best suits them.

Customization and flexiblity is supposed to be the beauty of the technological age.

Anyway it's nice to see a pro-active thread on this board.

JCBigler
06-22-2005, 03:33 PM
I realized while I was falling asleep last night, that JC probably doesn't need to insure his iLok and all the assets on it. Because he works for Digidesign, he probably gets free plug-in authorizations for everything, and thus he doesn't even really know what the value is of plug-in authorizations, and if he lost his iLok, would just go to the company store and get another one, for free.

Honestly, the best solution that I can think of is to have the lost/stolen iLok get turned off once it hasn't synched to the iLok website (or Waves website, if you are using Waves plugs) after like 30 days. And then, whatever plug-ins are on that iLok would only work as demos until it's resynched to the site, and then are deleted once it's confirmed that that particular iLok has been stolen/reported missing.

And then, obviously, a criminal prosecution for grand theft would take place once the identity of the thief is learned.

jeffro
06-22-2005, 03:52 PM
> I realized while I was falling asleep last night...

Try watching Seinfeld or Whose Line Is It Anyway tonight, maybe it'll take your mind off me. ;-)

> Because he works for Digidesign, he probably gets free plug-in authorizations for everything

Wrong.

> he doesn't even really know what the value is of plug-in authorizations

Wrong.

> if he lost his iLok, would just go to the company store and get another one, for free

Wrong.

> the best solution that I can think of is to have the lost/stolen iLok get turned off once it hasn't synched

I passed this along to PACE for consideration. Thanks for the suggestion!

JCBigler
06-22-2005, 04:38 PM
Bummer.

I know that the local dealer here in Tulsa gets all the plugs for free. I figured that getting free plugs was one of the perks of working for Digidesign. That kind of sucks that you don't.


I passed this along to PACE for consideration. Thanks for the suggestion!



Thank you. But please understand that this solutions is really only preferable if the original legitimate owner can get new authorizations for their lost/stolen authorizations, without having to buy new ones. Purchasing a new iLok key for $40, I think everyone agrees, is a reasonable requirment.

Otherwise, I would fully expect iLok to require you to synch regularly, but still not offer any solution for returning the previously authorized plugs.

mindnoise
06-23-2005, 03:45 AM
> the best solution that I can think of is to have the lost/stolen iLok get turned off once it hasn't synched

I passed this along to PACE for consideration. Thanks for the suggestion!




I donīt know if you all realize how ANNOYING this will become if you are FORCED to sync
on a regualr basis.

A lot of you complaint the strangling ties that iLok putīs on itīs users and this will get the rope
much more tighter.

iLok should keep track of the last sync and give their OK for replacements which have been reported
on the last sync.

I say it again, once you have working licencees on your ilok you donīt need ever to connect to the internet again, at least for a very, very long time.

the only way (now) would be with expiring personalized drivers.
an email with a link that confirms that the iLok ID associated with my registered account,
is still in my possession would be much enough!

PLUS: the confirm periods must be customizable to your needs of how often you want to confirm.

BUT LET`S FACE THE TRUTH:

from all reported case here on the DUC the vast majority of missing iLoks was
LOST!

and a only fraction was actually stolen. And even then it was not a theft focussed on the iLok
but unfortunately it just happenend to be with the things stolen, like in a bag.

So why all the razzmatazz when users are too uncaring to take care of their important
certification documents (what the iLok is essentially).

Do you put your passport and your credit card in the luggage when you travel?
I guess not.

Prove me wrong, if you can.

I donīt say that nothing should be done, but this tends to become a witch hunt.

IMHO

brinaddison
06-23-2005, 07:10 AM
It's obvious that mindnoise has not yet lost an iLok or had one stolen. I think his song would change if he did.

Not that I wish that on anybody, but sometimes it takes something like this to improving the system. I agree with the fact that I don't want to be authorizing plugins for a job but how hard could it be to implement an easy solution that could set our minds at ease? I think if PACE were to take another look at what they've created and how it affects people and businesses in the long run if something were to go wrong or get lost/stolen.

There must be a low impact way to implement this so that we're not constantly worried about adding more authorizations to the little plastic key that for all intents and purposes is really worth it's weight in gold, about $40. It just kind of dangles outside of the computer waiting to be taken, broken or lost.

When I first started using the iLok, I thought it was a novel idea, aah, now I can move from computer to computer with it. Well the reality is that in the 2 or 3 years that I've owned it it's never moved from the USB port. I'm not suggesting that nobody ever uses it for portability, I'm quite certain they do, but it didn't turn out to be what I thought it would. Most of the Studios I work in have a hefty set of plugins so I don't bother moving mine around cause it could get lost like my car keys or cell phone or worst case senario, my wife does the laundry and washes the iLok in my pants pocket. That hasn't happened.......... but it could.

I might have well just kept on using HD authorizations. (my case)

But now that I'm here with my iLok, I'd like to know that if something were to go wrong that I'd not be up s*!t creek without a paddle.

Glenn G
06-23-2005, 08:05 AM
So why all the razzmatazz when users are too uncaring to take care of their important
certification documents (what the iLok is essentially).

Do you put your passport and your credit card in the luggage when you travel?
I guess not.



But this is the whole thing. You lose your credit card you make a phone call, cancel the old one a new one gets sent to you -- free. You lose your driver's license, you pay a small fee, you get a new one. You lose you cellphone you buy a replacement for a relatively modest price. You lose your passport, you pay a modest fee and get a new one.

It sucks, but none of these casualties are catastrophic. Plus each loss is of a single thing. Losing the iLok is like losing all of these items plus your hardware outboard gear collection, plus your mic locker, plus all of your cabling etc. ALL AT ONCE!

Unless you're incredibly neglectful it's unlikely that one person could lose that many objects in one stroke.

Everyone can take all the care in the world, but if the iLok accidentally falls out of your pocket while you're running for an elevator now suddenly you've lost access to a lifetimes' worth of gear. I can't think of another scenario like this unless you're stupid enough to lose your ATM card with your PIN written on the back of it.

tele_player
06-23-2005, 08:29 AM
If the iLok system had the ability to set an expiration time on the iLok key, iLok could offer users the choice of the current mode of operation, where you risk everything if it's lost/stolen, or periodic refresh, where you don't take the risk. This takes care of the inconvenience which mindnoise mentions. He could use it as is. Considering how much time many seem to find for Internet discussion forums, I think a minute every few weeks on line is a fair price to pay for not risking hundreds or thousands of dollars, but others may choose to accept the risk.

brinaddison mentions being up the creek if something happens, 'taken, broken or lost'. Broken is OK, iLok can handle that, with some inconvenience. Stolen or lost are the main issues here.

jrm
06-23-2005, 11:02 AM
Wow, this has generated much more discussion than I had anticipated. I am glad to see that some good proactive ideas are comin gout of the woodwork and that, for the most part, everythign has remained quite civil!

I just received an email back from Digidesign. It reads:
I would get a police report and contact either Technical Support or Customer Service at 650-731-6100. They will have to speak with a manager who makes a decision regarding stolen iLok's on a case-by-case basis. I can't say as to how this will be handled ultimately. I can say that Digidesign is good about assisting it's customers whenever possible. Thanks for understanding.

So that's what I'm going to try and do now. I'm in the porcess of getting the report so I can call it in and can do some communicating. I'll keep you posted as things progress.

But I think some gret ideas are coming forward. Sure I don't think one will ever fit every user completely, but I think there are some ideas that reveal great flexibility and choice!

-jrm-

ggunn
06-23-2005, 02:36 PM
brinaddison mentions being up the creek if something happens, 'taken, broken or lost'. Broken is OK, iLok can handle that, with some inconvenience. Stolen or lost are the main issues here.



There's one more - 'given to your best bud along with copies of all the software and then claimed as stolen', which is the one that iLok is most worried about and which is, unfortunately, the most likely scenario if they don't protect themselves. So far we've not been able to come up with a scheme that protects both iLok and the customer (other than mine where spirit beams from the Mother Ship kill the errant device) which doesn't cause the customer some inconvenience.

So far, it looks to me as though they've got it about right, where they say they won't replace it but maybe they will after a lot of groveling, wheedling, and cajoling. After all, if it really *is* stolen, the odds of the thief actually being able to use it for anything are vanishingly small, right? I don't have one of these gizmos, but I assume that there's no way to poll it to see what plugs it activates. That would be pretty stupid, it seems to me.

I guess they figure if they make it painful enough they can keep the number of successful fraudulent cases down in the noise.

brinaddison
06-24-2005, 01:13 AM
brinaddison mentions being up the creek if something happens, 'taken, broken or lost'. Broken is OK, iLok can handle that, with some inconvenience. Stolen or lost are the main issues here.



There's one more - 'given to your best bud along with copies of all the software and then claimed as stolen', which is the one that iLok is most worried about and which is, unfortunately, the most likely scenario if they don't protect themselves. So far we've not been able to come up with a scheme that protects both iLok and the customer (other than mine where spirit beams from the Mother Ship kill the errant device) which doesn't cause the customer some inconvenience.




Well I thought about that too and it's built in. You see if you "give" it to your buddy, and at the end of the 30 day period only one iLok can be reauthorized (Synched) with PACE then do you think you're gonna give your buddy your Login and Password? I doubt it!

You see if the iLok software could manage the accounts and licenses, then no fraud could, in theory, be committed. If my buddy wants to use my iLok while I reauthorize the new "not stolen" key, he'll get 30 day's max out of it and then all the plugs would return to Demo Tryout mode only, those would then expire after 10 days or so, and he'd be back where he started.

If I tried this more than once or more than was reasonable (to be determined by PACE), then my account would be flagged and if abused this practice would lead to termination of my license.

I don't want that to happen. I'm trying to prevent it from happening.

Sorry buddy, you can't have my iLok!

Rail Jon Rogut
06-24-2005, 01:28 AM
The problem is.. once you introduce a date (which is compared to the date on your computer).. the copy protection can be circumvented. The only way would be that the iLok would have to be checked every time you started up the app which is going to use it.

Rail

mindnoise
06-24-2005, 03:29 AM
The problem is.. once you introduce a date (which is compared to the date on your computer).. the copy protection can be circumvented. The only way would be that the iLok would have to be checked every time you started up the app which is going to use it.

Rail



...which would make the iLok obsolete anyway, because is you to get new authorization with
nearly every time you use your plugs, the iLok is of nor further purpose.

And some some of the studios rather take a ride with the devils grandmother than connecting
there "Recoding Rig" to the internet, which is quite safe with a Mac (for now), consider it with an Wintel, where you get infected, spyed and advetized nearly as soon as you connected, since it would be no more possible to records without internet connection.

And what if you DSL provider goes does, happend twice to me in six months and I was net-less for
at least 3-4 days each. and some of you have to run a studio during that time, which effectively canīt be used during that time.

Mobile Mixing? forget it. unless you jump from Hotspot to Hotspot.


And THIS is a scenario I DEFINATELY want to avoid so, I only say this (again):

be careful what you wish for.



I guess Iīll support ggunnīs mothership killswitch suggestion. One call to iLok and they destroy the missing iLok and can safely issue new licencees.

BUt weīll see how the case brinaddison will end up. If iLok handles each theft on a case to case basis, there might be all the security we may need.

:sign: evacuation area: Children and iLoks first!


***Think of the consequences for the M-Powered users, too.

Glenn G
06-24-2005, 07:47 AM
As I suggested previously, they can make periodic renewal optional and those who opt out do so with the understanding that no replacements will be issued upon loss or theft.

For those who opt in, something like quarterly renewals where you have a 1 week window to do so seems to me would work out. This way you can plan ahead and schedule time when you're not in session to renew. And if your ISP goes down for 3-4 days you're still OK.

Quarterly renewal wouldn't be onerous on the owner, and any illegal copies would only be operational for 3 months.

As I posted in another thread, more often than not when I go to add a new asset to my iLok (gulp!) I have to download and install a software update, so it's not like the iLok is hassle free right now anyway. At least with some kind of renewal system the hassle will be of benefit to the consumers, and not exclusively the vendors.

Rail Jon Rogut
06-24-2005, 10:07 AM
As I suggested previously, they can make periodic renewal optional and those who opt out do so with the understanding that no replacements will be issued upon loss or theft.



And how would the iLok know it's time to renew? By looking at the time on the computer.. which as I said above can be manipulated -- that's why it won't work unless the iLok is checked in at ilok.com online to see if the renewal date has been reached. If it's reached it's renewal date or has been reported lst or stolen then the iLok could be disabled.. but this would only work if you had to be connected to the internet every time you used the iLok.. which wouldn't be acceptable.

Rail

JCBigler
06-24-2005, 01:15 PM
Once again, Rail's right.

The best solution is to just force the user to buy all new plug-ins, for X hundreds or thousands of dollars. That way, it's not inconvenient to anyone, except the person who has to buy all new authorizations. And iLok won't have to waste any energy creating a viable solution--wouldn't want to put more of a work load on the iLok people, who already have their hands full fighting the evils of software pirates with one hand, and grabbing as much money as they can from out of the pockets of their legitimate users with the other.

Rail, how about next time offering some constructive criticism, or suggesting your own solution, instead of just shooting down everyone else's.

Rail Jon Rogut
06-24-2005, 01:32 PM
Sorry if my explaining the shortcomings of the suggestions causes you distress.. I was simply explaining that the ideas put forth (which I've discussed previously on the DUC as well) won't work.

The original poster of this thread wouldn't be in the situation they're in if they'd used common sense. While I sympathize with his predicament... he should have known better than to leave something as valuable as his iLok in his checked luggage.

If anyone can come up with a viable method which works... then I'd be right behind them -- but time limiting the iLok isn't viable. As I wrote, the only actual method which would work is if the iLok were checked every time it were used... which becomes impractical.

I'm not like certain politicians who'll tell me we're winning the war.. when everyone knows we're not. Sorry if you don't like to hear the truth.

Rail

tele_player
06-24-2005, 03:07 PM
There are a (at least) couple of ways around the time tampering problem, once which would require new iLok hardware:

- new hardware with builtin battery-backed countdown timer
- OR using existing hardware, store a history of timestamps on the iLok indicating when it's been used, and analyze this history at startup to detect likely time-tampering, and disable. Require a revisit to the iLok website to reinitialize if time-tampering is falsely detected. This would only require a few hundred bytes of storage on the iLok.

Nothing's perfect, but this would greatly reduce the risk. Couple this with a policy on iLok.com on frequency of replacing assets on a replacement iLok, and you get something which meets the needs of SW vendors, and legitimate users.

Rail Jon Rogut
06-24-2005, 03:29 PM
Say the expiration timestamp is saved inside the iLok... it has to be compared against the computer's time.. this can be manipulated. Without having an internet connection explain how you see this functioning without the ability to be abused?

Rail

Glenn G
06-24-2005, 03:50 PM
Well Rail, since it seems Digi is editing out the bits that explain why your concerns about date manipulation may already be beside the point, all I'll say is let ye who has not yet lost or had stolen their iLok cast the first DUC post.

Now: I'm getting off this crazy ride. I believe JC suggested Seinfeld re-runs...

tele_player
06-24-2005, 05:09 PM
Say the expiration timestamp is saved inside the iLok... it has to be compared against the computer's time.. this can be manipulated. Without having an internet connection explain how you see this functioning without the ability to be abused?

Rail



If somebody's messing with the computer's time, they'll probably start getting times logged which aren't in ascending order. Or if the log contains both start and stop times, they might produce impossible overlaps.

Also, the iLok software that gets installed in the computer could monitor the system's clock to tell if something funny's been going on. Combined, they take a heuristic approach to detecting an attempt to defeat the system.

I prefer the idea of a new iLok with a hardware countdown timer. It could me made 100% backward compatible.

Rail Jon Rogut
06-24-2005, 05:17 PM
tele

I can't go into details for obvious reasons.. but all of what you've suggested (other than a new iLok) can be defeated. If you email me we can discuss this off the DUC.

Rail

brinaddison
06-24-2005, 05:33 PM
The problem is.. once you introduce a date (which is compared to the date on your computer).. the copy protection can be circumvented. The only way would be that the iLok would have to be checked every time you started up the app which is going to use it.

Rail



The iLok would need to be "standalone" anyway so you can move from computer to computer. After all this is the point of the iLok. I bet the Chinese could come up with a self contained lithium battery powered Super-iLok with a built in tamper-proof digital clock that is not reliant on the computer's clock. It would mean purchasing a Super-iLok (for those who want to opt in) at a cost of perhaps $100 that would do all the counting down regardless of the computer's clock. The Lithium battery would last approximately 3 years, and would give the user fair warning to change the battery.

If the battery is left out for too long the Super-iLok would need to be re-synched online with PACE. If the battery is changed within half an hour, for example, it would continue to work until the expiration date and scheduled reauthorization. You would not have to reauthorize it on your Recording rig, any USB slot on any online computer would do.

If you go on vacation and don't re-synch your Super-iLok for a few months, it doesn't matter, when you return to work, you simply re-synch the Super-iLoc and you're good to go. Only one Super-iLok can be activated from any account at any time. And again, don't give your buddy your login information, 'cause you'll be the loser in that case.

If you chose to stay with the regular iLok system, you can, after all choice is good.

These are just ideas that I'm throwing out. The point is to make everybody happy and secure in the knowledge that their investment is safe and has longevity. PACE would only need to deal with the occasional delinquent and the repeat offenders. Everything else would be handled with a few clicks online by the user once a month or as suggested, quarterly. Quicker than it took me to type this response.

As it stands now, we're treading on thin ice.

Peace!

JCBigler
06-24-2005, 08:21 PM
I think we're thinking about this all wrong.

We're all still thinking about it in terms of the iLok.

Is there a better, viable solution, that mabey doesn't involve an iLok? By including the iLok, we're are by default limiting our thinking to one particular copy protection scheme. Mabey it's time to come up with an all new solution, and ditch iLok all thogether. Mabey there is already a solution out there. There are probably hundreds, mabey thousands of copy protection systems being used in all sorts of industries. Surely one of these must meet our needs.

mindnoise
06-25-2005, 02:41 AM
This thread is becoming hilarious!

Super-iLoks, automated Timestamps, PACE change their System again after merely 3 years, after perhaps Millions of iLoks sold.

Get REAL people!

We have to/ must work with the iLok as it is NOW!


My only hope is that all this bla wonīt have an effect.

regs
m.

froyo
06-25-2005, 07:52 AM
Hello. I am definitely pro copyright protection, whatever form it takes, as long as it works and it doesn't negatively affect the consumer, or the manufacturer for that matter. Some of you may remember early forms of CD copy protection that would disable the CD player or cause it temporary malfunctions, or other forms of watermarking that were audible. These were solutions that weren't acceptable.

I think we all want a solution that works for all involved with no negative impacts for software developers or customers.

To reiterate I am pro copyright protection, pro iLok and pro choice. While I have had problems with iLok in the past, I fully support it. Some of the problems I had with iLok in the past have been solved or have had strides made towards solving them. The Zero Downtime aspect helps, however I feel it shouldn't be an additional fee to the end user.

As we see here, about the only problem left in the iLok method is when it is lost or stolen. It seems to me the quickest and easiest way to solve that problem is to convince insurance carriers to include iLok in their policies. If consumers, Digidesign and Third Party Developers push for this, I think it would go a long way.

No one is perfect and life is not perfect. Some iLoks will be lost and others will be stolen. Even when all precautions are taken to prevent it. Again, no one is perfect and neither is life and these things will happen, we need a professional solution to cover that instance.

My only other reservation with iLok is the idea of putting all eggs in one basket. What if the iLok.com website goes down or is attacked by hackers? What happens to all the information within? What happens to the professionals that have upwards of tens of thousands of dollars tied to it? What if they need to synch at that moment and can't and a session is brought to a stand still until it can? Say a session in the UK or Australia or a late night session in the US needs to synch an iLok to iLok.com and the site is down for 3 or 4 hours overnight for whatever reason. What then?

This is why I said I am pro copyright protection, pro iLok and pro choice. We definitely need another choice. As I said before, life is not perfect and PACE and iLok are definitely a part of that imperfection. By putting all eggs into that basket it leaves a mighty big Achilles heel if and when PACE has problems or deficiencies of some kind. Audio professionals are adept at working around problems when they arise, yet iLok can put one in a situation where a solution is either not there or not acceptable. I think customers and developers do need another choice and it needs to work for everybody. A solution that leaves the developers open to attack is not viable.

One idea I have been spinning in my head involves registration I suppose more than protection in strict terms. While it doesn't address iLok or things like it, it relates to the overall copyright protection theme. It would be mostly for businesses and professional situations, but I think still falls under the copyright protection banner. In essence it would revolve around the idea of a 'trusted vendor'. Here is how it works.

Company A buys Software X, Y and Z. Company A registers the purchased software not only with the three companies but with third party Agency F. Agency F is set up to operate somewhat like BMI and ASCAP in the sense that they monitor and make sure businesses that use software can prove they purchased it and are using it legally. Furthermore, Company A uses Software X, Y and Z to record and mix a music group. As part of their deliverables to the record label, they must show their Agency F certificate that proves they are using only software they paid for.

This way when someone buys a service from a studio or individual, whether it's music or audio post, they buy it from a 'trusted vendor' they know only uses software purchased legally. Piracy is a crime and crime is one of those things that makes life imperfect and not ideal. There will always be crime and criminals as long as there is a human race. However, laws and methods of enforcing them tend to keep honest people honest and limit crime and criminals to a more manageable level.

Going to a trusted vendor method would insure that no professionals would gain monetarily from illegally obtained software.

brinaddison
06-25-2005, 08:05 AM
What is your problem mindnoise? It won't affect you if you don't want it to. Stay put with your current iLok and enjoy the lack of recourse if anything goes wrong or you lose it.

For everyone else, I ask you: Does it seem foolish to have a new and improved system? The point is that our database of authorizations and licenses is already setup and registered with PACE. Nothing would have to move and the "million iLoks" sold would still work perfectly well.

Maybe we should just go back to Dial-up as well and forget about DSL/cable internet, or for that matter any other improvements in technology.

Someone came up with Airbags in cars for the same reason....SECURITY!

There has been nothing negative stated in my posts along with good ideas all around from the various other developmentally able posters on this thread. Why such resistance.....it boggles the mind.

Sure we can ditch the iLok altogether, but it's really not up to us at all. PACE has the agreement with the SW vendors to control the licenses, you can't take that away from them????? What are you thinking? That would be pretty impossible to implement IMO.

The Super-ilok is just a fictitious name for better implementation of the current system. It could be built and sold to complement what's already there. Do you have a problem with that? It's not that hard to grasp and obviously some "Old Dogs" don't want to learn new tricks.

Keep eating dog food, I'm off to get Neapolitan Pizza with goat cheese and a glass of wine.

brinaddison
06-25-2005, 08:24 AM
... As part of their deliverables to the record label, they must show their Agency F certificate that proves they are using only software they paid for.

This way when someone buys a service from a studio or individual, whether it's music or audio post, they buy it from a 'trusted vendor' they know only uses software purchased legally. Piracy is a crime and crime is one of those things that makes life imperfect and not ideal. There will always be crime and criminals as long as there is a human race. However, laws and methods of enforcing them tend to keep honest people honest and limit crime and criminals to a more manageable level.

Going to a trusted vendor method would insure that no professionals would gain monetarily from illegally obtained software.



what???

97% of projects and music recorded do not end up in the record companies lap. Who's to say you used your license for T-racks EQ when actually you were using a bootleg of Sony Oxford EQ.

Not a good way to deal with this. It also means setting up an agency and having admin to deal with this "clumsy" solution. If you want abuse of the system this where to start.

Too many people have "criminal minds" and they're the ones we're trying to control. The honest human will always be honest....maybe.
The beauty of iLok is it's already there, and as Froyo said, the only thing left to fix is the possibility of lost or stolen authorizations.
Keep it simple. Make a cheep Chinese digital wristwatch that will work....that's all. The infrastructure is in existence and the iLok needs to be a hotrod. That's all.

Then each to his own.

OK, now I'm gonna get that Pizza

froyo
06-25-2005, 10:46 AM
By brinaddison
what???97% of projects and music recorded do not end up in the record companies lap.

Hello. But they do end up in some 'buyers' lap, whether that is a record label or whoever. Which is why I said when 'someone' buys a service. Whoever that someone is.
Who's to say you used your license for T-racks EQ when actually you were using a bootleg of Sony Oxford EQ.

Well that's where the agency comes in. They have to certify that in fact the software used for it was purchased. Sort of the way Dolby always has a Dolby guy present. In other words, for example you would have to show your DAW session with the software used, plug ins, etc. That way you could not use your T-Racks license to use the Oxford.
t also means setting up an agency and having admin to deal with this "clumsy" solution. If you want abuse of the system this where to start.

Sure that's the big problem there. But this 'agency' may not have to be as complex as we may think. After all one needs a permit to operate as a business from the city or county or state. Similarly there could be a way to get a software 'permit' from this agency, and everything that it involves to get that permit and be certified when one hands in the work.

By the way, my idea of the trusted vendor is in addition to iLok and other copy protection schemes, not to replace them. Mainly it is to combat and prevent somebody by gaining finacially in a professional situation with ilegally obtained software.

brinaddison
06-25-2005, 01:22 PM
By the way, my idea of the trusted vendor is in addition to iLok and other copy protection schemes, not to replace them. Mainly it is to combat and prevent somebody by gaining finacially in a professional situation with ilegally obtained software.



Hmmm, that's a different thread altogether and it doesn't deal with the issue at hand.

As far as I know, garage bands don't care what software was used and the majority of audio recording is the grass roots "non signed type", so this would be difficult to implement and wouldn't really solve anything. Plus it would be way more high impact on the user. Mindnoise's "be careful what you wish for" comes to mind.

Not that it's a bad idea in theory, just cumbersome and somewhat ineffective and at the end of the day doesn't help the consumer at all. We're talking about equal rights between software vendors and the consumer's protection.

Really the issue at hand is to give the consumer of software plugins a little reassurance if something grows legs and vanishes or is mislaid. Right now other than insuring the iLok, there is no recourse. And insurance certainly guarantees the vendors will profit from a second or third purchase of their software, that to me is not ethical business practice and strikes me as somewhat unnecessary. For one thing the premiums would go up if this happened to someone who had thousands of $$$ worth of authorizations on their "lost" iLok.


Mmmmm....that was good Pizza!

froyo
06-25-2005, 01:59 PM
By brinaddison
Hmmm, that's a different thread altogether and it doesn't deal with the issue at hand.

Hello. Which is why I qualified my comment by saying that it involved registration more than protection in strict terms. However I think it is germane in the broader subject of copy protection, while it may not solve the specific subject of a lost or stolen iLok. However I did qualify it as such if you read my post carefully.
As far as I know, garage bands don't care what software was used and the majority of audio recording is the grass roots "non signed type", so this would be difficult to implement and wouldn't really solve anything.

Well I don't see it as such because you again may not be reading my post carefully or understanding what I am saying. This really only would apply to businesses that offer audio services for sale. I suppose a wider video and graphics umbrella could be implemented to cover those arts also. But just like a company has to have a permit to operate as a business it would need this software permit and certification to 'sell' their services. So as you say if a garage band goes to a studio to 'buy' audio services, they don't care if the software is legal or not. The distinction is that in order for the studio to operate it must have the software permit and also be certified that the software used for the services rendered to that garage band was purchased legally.
Plus it would be way more high impact on the user.

Well remember the trusted vendor model only applies to businesses or individuals operating as a business and using software to charge money for those services. Under those terms, anyone operating a business legally will have absolutely no problem in doing this. It would negatively impact only those businesses that used software obtained ilegally but then again that's the point isn't it. As for individual hobbyists and the like, the trusted vendor model doesn't apply as they are not 'vendors'. They are not selling anything.
Not that it's a bad idea in theory, just cumbersome and somewhat ineffective and at the end of the day doesn't help the consumer at all.

I never said it would benefit the general consumer, it would benefit businesses that use software to sell services and the software developers of course also. In the broader sense of fair play and crime however, I think minimizing crime or the benefits of those crimes to the criminals benefits everyone, consumers and vendors.
And insurance certainly guarantees the vendors will profit from a second or third purchase of their software,

I don't disagree wholly with the point you make, but isn't that what insurance does anyway? If I insure my car against theft and it gets stolen, the insurance company will pay for another car. So are we saying auto manufacturers are unethical? Isn't that what insurance does for the most part anyway?

Look I agree in the specific discussion of iLok my comments may not have had much context. However I did qualify my trusted vendor comments as pertaining to the broader subject of copy protection, copyright, etc. As for iLok, as far as I can tell the best solution that works for all involved is to have insurance carriers cover iLok's. Also, maybe another company that can offer similar services and have some competition, otherwise the whole practice smacks a little of Mafia strong arm tactics. Like forcing a baker to use only one company's dough or get out of the business altogether.

brinaddison
06-25-2005, 09:10 PM
OK, let's slow down a little. We didn't define consumer and vendor.

In this thread, that seems to have been hijacked, the "Vendor" is the Software company and the "Consumer" is the purchaser of that software. we're not looking at the General Public here so let's forget about them.

A large segment of studios do run as licensed businesses, I'm a part of that group too. However for many years I was a freelance engineer who worked in other peoples studios (some licensed and some not) and I also started building my own reputation and studio without being a licensed business. The latter is in no way less qualified to produce recordings for the "general Public" as the former.

The fact is that in this business it's about your ears and what you know more than if you're running a licensed business. If a record is made in a garage by Mr. X and he gets a distribution deal because the record "rocks" and is guaranteed to sell millions of copies because it's sound and pertinent, the record company doesn't care it the software was legal or not. If the record could only be sold if it was recorded legitimately, we might all be denied this genius work of art by Mr. X and the record company stands to lose out on sales and revenue.

I still don't see how anyone could tell if the T-Racks EQ was used or was it the Sony Oxford EQ that was a bootleg, even though the studio might be registered and licensed.

There are just too many holes in this theory IMO. This is Rock 'n Roll (or punk rock or pop or whatever....). I can see the Audio Post business and Hollywood being a little easier to control, but the whole industry????? And what's the point if it doesn't apply to everybody?? This is a completely different topic and should be taking place on it's own thread.

Froyo, I'm not bashing your idea. We're all trying to help each other here, after all we're in this boat together. I really believe in copyright and copy protection too by the way and if a solution can be found for all ills, then be my guest.

Next, when I said "high impact" on the consumer (me and you not the general public) I meant that the red tape involved would irritate more than help. I did read your original post carefully and found it interesting but not on topic even though it's all about copy protection, that's another chapter and it has derailed the discussion we were having regarding iLok replacement in the event of loss or theft.

The car insurance analogy is not the same, the manufacturer still needs to produce a new car at high cost as a replacement. With software, it's just a license. There is not even paper involved. The plaintiff still needs to purchase a new iLok at $40 but the authorization is not tangible, it's code that has been paid for already. The Vendor doesn't need to produce another version, just say OK download it again. If they think they deserve payment a second time for this, it's unethical!

Get it?

Park Seward
06-26-2005, 11:30 AM
[You lose you cellphone you buy a replacement for a relatively modest price. You lose your passport, you pay a modest fee and get a new one.



I was curious about your statement that a replacement passport cost a "modest" fee. From:
http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/fees/fees_837.html

"The Passport fee is $55. The Security Surcharge is $12. The total fee is $67."

To buy a replacement cell phone using your same plan is even more expensive. From the Sprint web site, the PM-8200 by Sanyo is $79 when you sign up for a plan but if you lose the phone and buy another one, the cost is $229.

Blue Ridge
06-27-2005, 01:16 PM
It sounds to me like ILOK is not a key, but a reservoir for license verification.

But is it a wallet, or a key?

If you buy a book, and then, in addition, buy a license giving you broadcast rights to read that book over the radio...

And then you lose the book ...

You can go pay for the book again and broadcast it without buying the license again. That license is still valid.

Whether someone else is able to read the book or not is, as Rail points out, irrelevant.

One buys an ILok, as I understand it, separately from buying the licenses one stores in it.

But if one views those licenses like money that you put in your wallet ...

... and then you lose your wallet ..

Ah, intellectual property. But thanks you all for this primer in ILok, I'll be staying away until the manufacturers get their act together.

You lose your Amex card, they issue you another one -- with a verification number to call. That type of two-way validation will happen, eventually, in this arena.

It appears that all these wonderful companies producing these great plug-ins are strong on engineering and not on marketing. It'll even itself out.

In the meantime, for us pedestrians, the answer is pretty clear: no Ilok.

brinaddison
06-27-2005, 03:07 PM
iLok is better than Hard Drive authorization, in that if your HD fails or needs to be reinitialized, you'll still have your authorizations. However unless stolen, I've never heard of anyone misplacing their system drive while out to lunch. With the iLok, like anything else (Passport/Credit card/Cellphone etc...) things happen and get lost or stolen. And in that case, you're pretty much outta' luck.

Cliffy_Boy
06-27-2005, 04:15 PM
FWIW, I checked with my insurance ( CHUBB) and they consider the iLok as software since it is integral with the software. there is no deductible and the limit is based on my software coverage which is 10k. For 5% I can riase the limit.

i haven't bothered reading thru the 4 pages earlier but there were lots of mentions of insurance companies not covering iLoks. I guess this is not universal. I am covered.

brinaddison
06-27-2005, 05:29 PM
....car insurance analogy is not the same, the manufacturer still needs to produce a new car at high cost as a replacement. With software, it's just a license. There is not even paper involved. The plaintiff still needs to purchase a new iLok at $40 but the authorization is not tangible, it's code that has been paid for already. The Vendor doesn't need to produce another version, just say OK download it again. If they think they deserve payment a second time for this, it's unethical!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cliffy_Boy, If you took the time to read all the information you'd see that some people disagree with the iLok insurance option. It's not up to our insurance to cover legitimacy. Maybe that's why we have the current iLok issues. The "fat cats" are getting fatter with every mistake we make.

Also maybe Canada is a little different to the USA? I don't know for sure, I've never even looked into insuring my iLok, and I don't think I should have to either. All thr regestrations are in the hands of the software vendors and PACE has all the current licenses on the ilok.com website in our individual accounts. What can't they just cross-reference this information and replace the authorizations?

It's only fair.

Cliffy_Boy
06-27-2005, 07:05 PM
What can't they just cross-reference this information and replace the authorizations?

because iLok cannot as of now remove authorisations from stolen iLoks.

I didn't read all the posts because this thread is rhetorical. I did post my suggestions as to a solution earlier in an iLok post. Keep in mind that if you bought software that did not require an authorisation and you had a fire that burned your computer and the CD where you had the software, you would be in the same sad boat with no software. That is why you insure your software. The same is true if someone went into your studio and stole the computer and your hard copies of the software. You would have nothing but insurance to save you.

Bottom line - we buy insurance because it is not up to the vendors of anything to protect your assets. It is up to you. And if disaster strikes, you'll be glad you were insured.

Chris Shaeffer
06-27-2005, 07:20 PM
Who insures iLoks and software?

Anyone actually HAVE insurance on their plugs and/or iLok?

-Chris

tele_player
06-27-2005, 08:19 PM
Cliffy, there's a difference between hardware assets and software assets, and software vendors know it. Anyway, the real asset you buy when you buy software is intangible, it's the RIGHT to legitimately use the software. It's not the software itself, or the authorizations on the iLok, or disk authorizations. The authorizations represent the license, but they are not the license. If your hard disk goes down fails completely, do you lose the authorizations it holds? No, not even with Waves.

Think of the purpose of the iLok. It's sole purpose is to ensure the software vendors don't get ripped off. In exchange for this copy protection, legitimate users put up with varying degrees of inconvenience, but it's not technically necessary for users to accept the risk of a big loss if the iLok is lost or stolen. A properly designed system would satisfy the needs for the SW vendors, and minimize inconvenience and risk to legit users.

chrisaiken
06-28-2005, 06:12 PM
Software is like a book.. if the book is stolen the publisher won't replace the book for free... even if it's stolen by someone who's illiterate or can't read the language the book is written in.

Rail



Sorry there's no way it's the book,the plugins are the book.The ilok is like a lock you would put on the book to keep others from reading it.
As you know having that lock misplaced or taken would not make the book unreadable.
If you can explain this another way go for it.

Chris

JCBigler
06-28-2005, 06:27 PM
If you can explain this another way go for it.



Here, I'll try explaining it another way:

if you lose your iLok, or it gets stolen, then you have to buy your plug-ins again. The developers get paid twice by the same person to use the same piece of software. That means the developers get more money.

As with most things in this world, that's what it all boils down to; who can get the biggest pile of dollars by the end?

brinaddison
06-28-2005, 08:49 PM
Ok everybody, we've beaten this one to death. So what's the consensus?

-Is the Idea of a new and improved iLok (self powered) with time expiration the way to go?

-Can anyone come up with a scenario where the Super-iLok would not work for everyone? (I've thrown out one and that was in the case of remote recording when no internet was present for a long period of time. However the workaround is to re-synch when you go to the village to get food. Find a computer!! or make sure you're up to date when you leave town)

To summarize:

The Super-iLok would be:
----------------------------
-Portable (like the current iLok)
-Non transferable due to it's expiration time and obligatory re-synch. (sorry your buddy would only get 1 month max. out of it)
-Not reliant on the computer's clock (to avoid HD tampering/fraud)
-Re-synch-able from any online computer.
-Secure for both User and Developer.
-Replaceable when lost or stolen by logging onto your account and synching up your new Super-iLok. Your old ilok would at that point expire at the end of countdown. Only one iLok per account can function at a time. (idea: After 3 times your iLok account gets "flagged" and on the 4th time, it would be like losing your regular iLok once!) That way it curbs abuse of the system.
-The Super-iLok would give fair warning of reached countdown expiration....a few days before scheduled expiration the user would get repeated warnings when launching PT.
-Super-iLok would not abandon the user mid session, After quitting PT(or other DAW), the plugins would return to Demo mode for a short period of time until the User could find a moment to re-synch online.
-Re-synch would only be a couple of clicks. Logon to your iLok.com account and hit the Update button. Et Voila, Done!
-It would be easy to upgrade from the regular iLok to the Super-iLok by inserting both into the computer to transfer licenses from one to the other. At the same time the old one would be canceled.
-It would be backwards compatible, meaning anyone who still had a regular iLok and wanted to keep it regular, could! The point is there would be "choice" for anyone willing to pay $100 for the Super or $40 for the regular.

The only difference is that if the Regular iLok is lost or stolen.......... The "User" is outta luck. If the Super is lost or stolen, The "User" simply purchases a new Super-iLok for $100 and re-synchs it, possibly saving thousands of $$$ for plugin authorizations lost.

Anything else?

Mt.Everest
06-30-2005, 04:36 PM
Who insures iLoks and software?

Anyone actually HAVE insurance on their plugs and/or iLok?

-Chris



Anyone? This is what Id love to know. This would all be easily solved if there was an insurance company that would cover an ilok. Id gladly pay a hefty sum for this, vs. paying $5000+ to replace my plugins if my iLok gets stolen.

So again, is ANYONE out there using insurance to truly cover their iLok?
MT

Cliffy_Boy
06-30-2005, 04:40 PM
I'm insured with Chubb and the basic insurance covers my iLok as it is deemed to be indistinguishable from the software that it authorises.

I think Chubb is in the US too.

brinaddison
07-01-2005, 08:27 AM
And while you're filing your stolen property report and waiting for the insurance company to pay for the claim and replace the software that you already own and have to purchase yet again from the stone-cold-we-want-to-be-paid-a-second-time-for-this-software companies, I'll be re-synching my Super-iLok, and in a matter of mouse clicks I'll be up and running again.

For you it might be weeks! Sorry.

This is the vision of what the super-iLok could do for us. Think about it. Like I said before I think insurance for the iLok is unethical 'cause those companies do not deserve to be paid a second time for software that is registered, installed and licensed to you already. They do not have to produce anything of value to replace the stolen or lost iLok. I'd pay for a new Super-iLok in a heartbeat (hardware) if I knew that the software I own would function again without hassle. All the vendor needs to do is ok the new license in a secure way. What's hard to grasp about that?

All this talk about the hassle of re-synching once a month for a minute or two is nothing compared to the hassle of replacing a lost or stolen, even insured iLok. It's not rocket science, it's common sense!

This is what this discussion is all about!

brinaddison
07-01-2005, 06:17 PM
I don't think we're going to make them change, but I do think the discussion is healthy. Brainstorming is always fun and creative and I really think this idea holds some water. Whether it will be implemented is another question. If the technology exists to improve on something then it should be considered, even if it is only theoretical. Unfortunately the ball is not in our court and the improvements will only benefit the consumer (you and I). So what reason do the developers have to pursue the idea?

Well .... none!

It's unfortunate but unless there was a huge outcry from the engineers and producers for change, nothing will be done. It would take a little R&D capital to get this idea off the drawing board and into the hands of the consumer.

Who should pay for that?
Well who stands to gain the most?

The answer is us, so do we pay for development? I guess we could, but I also think the developers should throw us a bone for being loyal customers by keeping them afloat. Without us, there is no need for them. One hand washes the other.

Maybe a petition would spark some real consideration, however from what I've seen in the past on the DUC, it's all pissing in the wind and idle chit-chat. Without a real proposal and cost estimate, I see no future for the idea of a new and improved iLok system.

It's a shame.

JCBigler
07-01-2005, 07:51 PM
Who should pay for that?
Well who stands to gain the most?

The answer is us, so do we pay for development? I guess we could,...



Three words: Open Source Development.

That's what it's all about; distributive, collaborative, cooperative development. Open source puts the control into the hands of the user.

Don't worry, I'm already working on it. Don't have a time frame, but a replacement for the iLok is in the works. If anyone's interested in making this into a kind of technology coop, send me a private email and we can start talking.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!

Rail Jon Rogut
07-01-2005, 09:48 PM
Yeah.. open source copy protection.. that'll work - ROTFLMAO

Rail

brinaddison
07-02-2005, 10:20 AM
Yeah.. open source copy protection.. that'll work - ROTFLMAO

Rail



ok right now I'm in fits of laughter trying to figure out this one??? ROTFLMAO...... Rail, you're going to have to spell that one out for me. LMAO

By the way I wasn't suggesting that "We" actually pay for this thing. I was simply having an internal dialog while I was typing. Development is not in the hands of the people unfortunately, but the ideas can come from anywhere.

My hope is that someone with influence is paying attention to this thread and takes the flame to the next level. And that I know is wishful thinking too.

brinaddison
07-02-2005, 10:24 AM
I think I got it. ROTFLMAO...... that's a good one Rail!

Rail Jon Rogut
07-17-2005, 12:29 AM
BTW - if you paid for your airline ticket with a Visa Signature Card (http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/benefits/bft_luggage.html?it=il|/personal/cards/benefits/|Lost%20Luggage%20Reimbursement) - you may have some coverage. Check with your credit card company.

Rail